Author Topic: Natural Antagonize scores???  (Read 4412 times)

Sewerprince

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Natural Antagonize scores???
« on: November 29, 2009, 10:10:01 PM »
It came to my attention that, despite the lack of charisma, someone could be -very- -very- -very- intimidating...Take for example my character Eluldor...He's a Heavily muscular half-drow with long white hair and almost always wearing a full suit of black armor...
Call me crazy but I'd be more nervous talking to him than a halfling bard that says he's going to kick me in the shin...
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LoLJohnFerro

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 10:11:29 PM »
I had a char who would dress up as the a exacutioner and kill people extermly violently. And he had a antagonise of -2 xD you just need to make them fear you :D

Emomina

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 10:12:28 PM »
What is the point that you are trying to make? It would be cheesing to be intimidating without skill ranks invested. It does represent a more social intimidation than a physically imposing presence.
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LoLJohnFerro

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 10:14:23 PM »
What im trying to say is just like the people who look like gods with 10 cha you can be scary as hell with bad antagonise, You just need to sale it.

Zedrik

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2009, 10:44:09 PM »
What im trying to say is just like the people who look like gods with 10 cha you can be scary as hell with bad antagonise, You just need to sale it.
In D&D there are modifiers. For instance, which of these sounds more scary?

Werner in Balor form all buffed up and fighting the Legendary Werewolf without getting hurt and when the wolf runs away and Werner turn his attention to you and growls, "Leave or I will kill you." (Keep in mind Werner has no ranks in Antagonize)

OR

Random halfling you never heard of glares at you and rolls Antagonize: 67.

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Kendric98

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2009, 11:07:49 PM »
Its not the size of the dog that matters as much as the fight in the dog.

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Ingwulf

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 02:29:24 AM »
I feel also that some PC completely ignore it when Antagonize is rolled so it seems not to matter if you have ranks in that skill... Some players choose to ignore it... :S

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 02:38:39 AM »
I guess I'm the jerk DM that wont let you ignore the rolls..

I happen to love using random skills.


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Ingwulf

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 02:45:58 AM »
I think when someone rolls, you should roll against it.... my opinion. The antagonize skill can be used in so many fun ways. So I think it should matter how many ranks you have in it. Some on this server are like big muscular guys in the real world... putting up a harsh and big front to look evil or badass (intimitating). But eeeeeeveryone knows they aren't :)

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 03:10:06 AM »
And then the werewolf roars, with an antagonize of 50+, and the muscular man prances away whilst crying.

:)  :D
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Purist

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 08:53:59 AM »
It falls in to one time when I asked for these "natural" bonuses for wildshapes, polymorphs and etc. Like a bear would gain some bonuses to antagonize to scare people, or panthers would gain a MS and Hide bonuses. I asked for slight bonuses, like +5, or even a +10 depending on the form. But.... most people disliked the idea, so I don't see this happening either.

Emomina

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 09:07:25 AM »
I asked for slight bonuses, like +5, or even a +10 depending on the form.
:ahem:
Slight bonus is +1, +2 maybe.    :D
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LoLJohnFerro

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 09:10:27 AM »
Well for the exmaple using werner you are a level 17 wizard who can tear the head off anything and chew on it = Ungodly scary

A half Orc who steals children and corpses and eats them in his lair killing all in his way = Very scary

Some one who gives you a mean face and rolls 30+ on antagonise = annoying...

And if you dont have points in antagonise that doesnt mean your not scary just means your not Imposing you arnt forcing your will on people that is what antagonise is you are forcing someone into submission or taunting them to weaken thier defenses its not how scary but how imposing. Its one of the reasons charisma boosts this stat.
How ever scary you are is for you to decide.

Ingwulf

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 11:27:23 AM »
I know that in pen and paper intimidate can be used with strength as well charisma. But most people that use antagonize on the server use it to make people back away from them. Like the guards use it to subdue people and tell them to do what they want using fear.

But I understand what you mean with the halflings using it with the mean face. But who says that a halfling cannot be scary as hell?

I respect rolls when they come my way and I hope that people do the same for me :)

just my 2 cents :D
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 11:31:03 AM by Ingwulf »

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Kaldo

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 01:32:23 PM »
 On PnP d&d a dm may change the antagonize due to circumstances and I would soppose one has to pay attention to them before they choose their reaction.

 For example, I go to the lair of a Caliban and see a lot of corpses on the ground, eaten, then I look to my left and see the Caliban covered in blood growling at me. If his role was high, I would probably run   :Seriously__We_Need_One__by_Ca even if it was to prepare myself to face him. If his role was poor however, I wouldn't laugh at his face. Although that would be extremely funny  :rimshot:, I would probably stab him in the head.
 
 Also, if a halfling picks a heart from his belt, then throws it at the wall and then a Knife +2 Of-Doom-That-Is-Glowing-In-Red at it, I would crap my pants and pay him a beer in hope he would forget I said anything. (yes, I am asking a beer)

 Of course, I don't soppose we should antagonize in the same circumstances with different characters. If the said Halfling started growling, even if covered in blood, It wouldn't be the same as to see the Caliban.

Also, I think this -->

 This is why intimidate uses charisma. You see this guy and you think twice before you do anything. That and the factor awesomeness.. :rimshot:

 

 PS: I really love this smile

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2009, 03:16:00 PM »
I know that in pen and paper intimidate can be used with strength as well charisma. But most people that use antagonize on the server use it to make people back away from them. Like the guards use it to subdue people and tell them to do what they want using fear.

Its funny, every time I see a high antagonize roll I think to myself "woah, they mean business..... better kill them quickly.... from behind..... when they are distracted fighting something else."

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2009, 04:36:41 PM »
Antagonize uses charisma because it is the ability to piss someone off. If you are antagonizing someone, it is the act of purposefully provoking them. That's what Taunting is.

If you roll high on antagonize, it means you said something that REALLY pressed the buttons of your target. Hence, charisma based.

To a much lesser degree it is an intimidate roll. OP makes a very good point though, if you aren't scary, then you aren't likely going to be making any good intimiating threats, despite your roll. A little halfling is likely going to just piss you off.

As far as most 'opposed' checks go... the fact that they rely on a d20 is, in my opinion, asinine. But that's D&D.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 04:42:02 PM by Vokan »

mayvind

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2009, 05:21:07 PM »
From what i understand skills rolls are Guidance to RP but it is not a FIX rules that you have to obey the roll and you can ignore it if it is absurd. I do not put much into skill rolls but instead on the visual and RP lead the atmosphere. And yes i have kill lots of barbarian whom roll 67 antagonize on Yves. Because she feel that if it is threatening or insulting kill it so careful with the rolls !.

But skill rolls also good for more subtle things like telling a lie, provoke or instigate fear or anger ( with couple of words RP ). I do find confusing some time if someone look at my char then roll antagonize without some guidance of what the person want will result in ignore. "Look at Yves" roll 67 antagonize. "Yves ignore the look"
 

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 02:35:47 AM »
Noticed that a lot really myself.  Said person simply looks at someone or "stares daggers" at them and rolls an antagonize check.

Antagonize should reflect what's being said or done in the occurance.  A big barbarian yelling how he's going to rip your limbs off and beat you to death with them is going to make most pee their pants...

If someone just looks at my PC and rolls antagonize, or does something that doesn't fit the roll, then I'll ignore it.

But you shouldn't simply ignore the roll like I see some people do 100% of the time.
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Wannabe_Irish

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 07:26:32 AM »
I can honestly imagine most seasoned PCs simply shrugging off or raising an eyebrow at the person giving them the stare of death.

But I see a lot of people wonder why other people don't always back down when they roll high on antagonize, but as stated before, antagonize is more than just to intimidate. If you're fresh out of luck, the one you're trying to intimidate might fly off the handle and aim for the face.

As for natural antagonize scores, well, that should be incorporated in other people's RP. Those who give a damn about your race will react to it, whether they will be on edge, fearful, or trying to rip out your spine. Those affected by a brute's size and muscle will steer clear, feel safe around them, or poke fun at them.

After all, what works for one person doesn't work for another, much like flirting.

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Purist

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2009, 04:27:27 PM »
What if the diplomacy skills were divided again? No more influence and antagonize, instead bluff, intimidate, persuade and etc. I'm aware the server won't change that but would not it be more reasonable. Would be like: just because one knows how to lie well in a card game(for example) doesn't mean one can also put fears into another's heart.

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2009, 04:33:03 PM »
I like them how they were before, yeah.

Not sure why they were changed.

Aldarris

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2009, 04:48:19 PM »
If you're going to split them, I'd say at least keep intimidate and taunt linked into the one skill "Antagonize".

It makes more sense that a character with high intimidate would be able to do so in combat as well as in a social standoff, making their enemy faulter in ways so they could then take advantage.

Splitting the skills up doesn't seem logical to me.

But it would be nice to have persuade and bluff seperated so each could be used more appropriately.
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Ingwulf

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2009, 02:25:14 AM »
I agree with the persuade and the bluff skill, I also agree to keep taunt and intimidate in one skill :)

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JipK

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Re: Natural Antagonize scores???
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2009, 05:14:45 AM »
The reason why the skills were combined is because they only have (non mandatory) roleplay value, and are in general only used to flesh out a character concept. The skills will never become as valuable as skills with which you have to beat a DC in order for them to work, like hide, open lock and concentration. Since bluff and diplomacy are basically covering the same area; being able to manipulate/bargain (with) others it was decided to combine the two. The combined skills now represent your ability to influence others, so the skill is appropriate in both situations. Same goes for taunt and intimidate, the skills even more so cover the same area, the only difference is that one is used in combat and the other outside of combat.

I don't really see what the benefit would be of splitting them up again.

OT: This topic has been discussed numerous times already.

The skill being used to sketch how fearsome and wicked your are or to simply frighten others by displaying your power is a fine use of the skill, and bonuses because you look frightening would be fitting. In PnP one would get size bonuses because you come of more imposing on smaller targets, but since intimidate is not an opposed roll in PotM, those bonuses cannot be added. Even though this is the use of the skill you see most, it is often forgotten this is not the "main" use of the skill, it's just an additional way the skill can be used in, and has minor effects.

I see the use of the skill intimidate in (close to) combat situations as a way to make you look stronger than you actually are. I.e. an average looking guy coming across as some one who could beat you up easily, while in reality you are evenly matched. Making some one believe you are going to use force if he doesn't listen, while in reality you are trying to avoid it. Making some one believe you can hit him where it hurts him the most (family/reputation/money), while in reality you can't or simply don't want to. In the end, this type of intimidating is basically aggressive bluffing. You can look as frightening as you want, if you don't get your message across it's not going to add anything. This is also the type of intimidation with more major results.

To put it into perspective a bit, the results of the two types of intimidation according to PnP:

  • The result of the one I described first:
    Quote
    If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.
    This basically means people think you are scary. It doesn't really do anything besides that.

  • The results of the one I described second:
    Quote
    If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated.
    This means you can get someone to do things he'd normally not do, i.e. back off or say something he'd usually not.

I suppose you can see for yourself that the effects of the latter use, the charisma based version, are a lot more impacting than the use I described first. Obviously the latter version is the main use of the skill and the reason why it's charisma based.

In my personal opinion the skill isn't perfect either, but it covers such a broad area that it cannot be perfectly logical in every situation. Too bad the use we're seeing most is the illogical one. We'll just have to live with it. Don't forget there are no official rulings on how to react to intimidation, this means you can't demand a certain reaction of someone.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 06:45:48 AM by JipK »