Author Topic: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.  (Read 9804 times)

tzaeru

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2009, 06:13:12 AM »
In which case, could we produce a system in which the save DC increases with more levels? That was, lower level people are more likely to be able to recover, but the chances reduce at higher levels.

So, when the difference between fortitudes for a rogue/mage/similar and fighter/paladin/cleric is anywhere from 7 to 16 at level 15, it'd mostly mean that if the former ones are given a chance, the latter ones will always success, and if the latter ones are put in some challenge or risk, the former ones are pretty much always failing..

Somehow, I like the system how it is now. I mostly success the saves, even if the DCs are occasionally high in the sky. And, I'm firm believer that if you're alone bleeding somewhere, without a party, you should be in real risk of dying, and not get a better chance due to your high level or maxed out saving throws.

failed.bard

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2009, 09:44:13 AM »
  A paladin or blackguard could conceivably hit +40 fort here, and +30 would be easily achievable for those two buffed, at the higher levels.  Anything with even a small chance of them failing would be instant and automatic fail to many other characters.

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2009, 02:37:02 AM »
The problem with fortitude is that it will increase to a very high value as people get higher in levels.

Isn't that the idea though?  The higher level you are the stronger/better at survival you should be.  A warrior with a high fortitude got it from years and years of getting beaten up and giving beatings back.  He should be better at recovering from taking a hard blow than say a peasant with a stick that's only ever been in 1 fight in his/her life.  Thats kinda the entire point of the leveling system. 
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Shadowthrone

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2009, 03:27:34 AM »
I don't really have any issue with the current system, but if people want a change, what's wrong with the PnP system?

Quote from: d20srd.org
Stable Characters and Recovery
On the next turn after a character is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points and on all subsequent turns, roll d% to see whether the dying character becomes stable. He has a 10% chance of becoming stable. If he doesn’t, he loses 1 hit point. (A character who’s unconscious or dying can’t use any special action that changes the initiative count on which his action occurs.)

If the character’s hit points drop to -10 or lower, he’s dead.

You can keep a dying character from losing any more hit points and make him stable with a DC 15 Heal check.

If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he stops losing hit points and becomes stable.

Healing that raises the dying character’s hit points to 0 makes him conscious and disabled. Healing that raises his hit points to 1 or more makes him fully functional again, just as if he’d never been reduced to 0 or lower. A spellcaster retains the spellcasting capability she had before dropping below 0 hit points.

A stable character who has been tended by a healer or who has been magically healed eventually regains consciousness and recovers hit points naturally. If the character has no one to tend him, however, his life is still in danger, and he may yet slip away.

Recovering with Help
One hour after a tended, dying character becomes stable, roll d%. He has a 10% chance of becoming conscious, at which point he is disabled (as if he had 0 hit points). If he remains unconscious, he has the same chance to revive and become disabled every hour. Even if unconscious, he recovers hit points naturally. He is back to normal when his hit points rise to 1 or higher.

Recovering without Help
A severely wounded character left alone usually dies. He has a small chance, however, of recovering on his own.

A character who becomes stable on his own (by making the 10% roll while dying) and who has no one to tend to him still loses hit points, just at a slower rate. He has a 10% chance each hour of becoming conscious. Each time he misses his hourly roll to become conscious, he loses 1 hit point. He also does not recover hit points through natural healing.

Even once he becomes conscious and is disabled, an unaided character still does not recover hit points naturally. Instead, each day he has a 10% chance to start recovering hit points naturally (starting with that day); otherwise, he loses 1 hit point.

Once an unaided character starts recovering hit points naturally, he is no longer in danger of naturally losing hit points (even if his current hit point total is negative).

Basically, when bleeding, you roll a d100 and recover on a 1-10.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2009, 04:16:32 AM »
I'd like to suggest adding the pulsating dark red glow effect to PC's that are currently bleeding.  As it is now, we can't tell if a PC is bleeding out, stable, or just unconscious.

Minstrel

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2009, 05:04:18 AM »
Wouldn't a bleeding out effect be possible, like Mutilated Zombies get?

Thoraion

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2010, 02:22:34 PM »
Even so keeping mind that you've got up to 10 chances (depending a bit on how hard you were hit after going down) it's still 50% of rolling a 20, and if we're gonna nerf the bleed system it's just gonna be another thing to promote NOT going out into a dungeon with a party.

First something on that "50% chance". If the rolls would be in fact random, you are right about a theoretical chance of 50%.
Though, it is quite obvious that the engine for random effects like dice rolls is not that random at all.
True - given a large enough number of attempts, the allocation of the results will be nearly equal. But you might have noticed that there is a tendency to a clustering of results.
The pattern seems to imply that you need to make a quite large number of rolls to leave a certain corridor in the results.
It is quite common to roll the same result 5 times or more in a row. Then, the following results can still lie in a corridor again with a repeat of the same results.
Good if you roll 6 criticals in a row, bad if you roll 20 results <10 in a row.

Well, i take it as it is - but please do not tell me that the chance of rolling a result of 20 with 10 attempts is 50%.

Now to the DC of recovering. I see absolutely no reason in a random DC that is sometimes not even beatable at all. The roll to match the DC is random, so why should the DC be random as well?

As for the very high DC: Yes, some characters will most likely recover all the time. So what? They have a strength there, let them have it! I mostly play fighters - i do not complain that i can't cast spells.

The idea of recovery is good, but there are several aspects that make recovery way more unlikely as it is intended to be. Including Monsters that beat the dead horse.
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Smitehammer

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2010, 02:10:56 AM »
Ah yes, this is how it usually seems to go.   DC 14... DC 43... DC >9000

The low rolls are tantalizing, but I seem to miss them by a notch or two.  I gave my wizard 16 constitution for just such occasions, to little avail.  Does make for an interesting topic for discussion, though.
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Purist

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2010, 03:10:56 AM »
Result of rolling a 20 in 10 attempts isn't 50%, no way.

If I remember right, it is something like: Nah I don't really remember, found out how to calculate it on yahoo! answers.

P = 10 x (1/20) x (1-1/20)^19  -------->  0.1886768012676538075565318107605

Probability of rolling a 20 in 10 rolls is 0.188          That's not even close to 50%, not even 20%.

By the way I'm not sure about this, lol.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 03:12:41 AM by Orochi »

Minstrel

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2010, 05:57:14 AM »
You don't need to roll a 20, though.

Though some of the DC's that are set require a 20, a good deal of them don't, and go to about 15, something any character has a solid chance of making.

Thoraion

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2010, 08:28:29 AM »
You don't need to roll a 20, though.

Though some of the DC's that are set require a 20, a good deal of them don't, and go to about 15, something any character has a solid chance of making.


the twenty is supposed to be the result that always grants a success - though i do not know if that is true for recovery checks as well.

But - and that stays the central problem - the chance for a recovery is diminutive.
10% with up to ten attempts would be a quite good chance. But what do we have? The used system reduces the chance from 10% per roll to:
(chance to get a beatable DC) * (chance to beat that DC)
Expressed in  a very simple way...

Something cheerfull on a sidenote: i did indeed succeed with a recovery-check yesterday. And the monster did NOT beat me when i was on the ground.
The first time in months.
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Knas

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2010, 07:57:58 PM »
Those few of you who suffer badly from it should consider:

Server isn't designed for soloplay, this is one of the things specifically there to prevent it.


And if you happen to play a loner then you can always invest a few class levels in a higher fort class, add more points to CON or pick a feat to boost it.

Purist

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2010, 08:34:18 PM »
Those few of you who suffer badly from it should consider:

Server isn't designed for soloplay, this is one of the things specifically there to prevent it.


And if you happen to play a loner then you can always invest a few class levels in a higher fort class, add more points to CON or pick a feat to boost it.

This is off topic. We are aware that team play is essential, but sh** happens.

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2010, 05:27:50 AM »
Just wanted to mention that by my own research (and by that I mean reading some things online and repeating them with a calculator to make sure it works), getting one 20 in ten rolls of a twenty sided dice should work out to be approximately 40%.  I know it's odd that it's not a full 50%, but probibility is often a strange thing to think about.  My friend in computer science tells me it's very difificult/impossible to get a computer to truely make random numbers, but given my own experience with Neverwinter Nights in which utterly probability-defying streaks of constant  misses (and rarely streaks of natural 20s) maybe a system of a flat 10% chance per round would clear up some of the confusion about what's going on.  (used in Pathfinder, and to my knowledge, the Dungeons and Dragons third edition rules that Neverwinter Nights uses)  I'm not sure if constitution should factor in here, since it already adds to your toughness by giving you extra hit points and fortitude saves.  I'm certainly not an expert or a math major though, but these are just my late night thoughts!

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« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 05:31:59 AM by Goodbye.Kitty »

Blacky Rose

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2010, 06:02:42 AM »
According to Twenty Sided:
Probability graph:
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Axel

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2010, 07:34:52 AM »
Result of rolling a 20 in 10 attempts isn't 50%, no way.

If I remember right, it is something like: Nah I don't really remember, found out how to calculate it on yahoo! answers.

P = 10 x (1/20) x (1-1/20)^19  -------->  0.1886768012676538075565318107605

Probability of rolling a 20 in 10 rolls is 0.188          That's not even close to 50%, not even 20%.

By the way I'm not sure about this, lol.

Hmm.. to the power of 19? It looks like it should have been to the power of 9.
P(X=1) = 10 x (1 / 20) x (19 / 20)^9 = 0.315124705

Anyway, that's the probability of rolling exactly one natural twenty in ten rolls. The probability you're looking for is the probability of rolling at least one natural twenty in ten rolls:
P(X>1) = P(X>0) = 1 - P(X=0) = 1 - (19/20)^10 = 0.401263061

Still, the mean number of twenties in ten rolls is 0.5.




Minstrel

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2010, 01:42:09 PM »
And I seem to get maybe one beatable DC (Around 13-20) for every two nat-20 needing ones...

So I'm fairly certain the chance overall is more than 50%.

Would be preferable if the system was tweaked a bit... IMO it should be harder to stabilise at later levels, since you die to dumb chance less and are more likely to be in groups.

Thoraion

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2010, 04:29:35 AM »
And I seem to get maybe one beatable DC (Around 13-20) for every two nat-20 needing ones...

So I'm fairly certain the chance overall is more than 50%.
How that?
If 33% of your rolls have a beatable DC, their weighted probability is 33%*5%.
The other DCs depend on your individual modifier - let's say it is +3 on average (just for the example).
So if your range for beatable DCs is 13-20, we can simplify it by saying the average beatable DC is 16.

With the assumed modifier of +3 you need on average a result of 13+, which equals 40%.

So now we have a probability of 33*5%+66%*40% = 28%

Did i forget anything there?
[quote ]
Would be preferable if the system was tweaked a bit... IMO it should be harder to stabilise at later levels, since you die to dumb chance less and are more likely to be in groups.
[/quote]

Well, and there i have an alltogether different opinion. I say chances for recovery should be constant. However, i see no reason for recovery getting easier as well.
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jimkaf

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2010, 04:43:54 AM »
I seem to be recovering most of the time, both with my mid-level pcs and my new low-level one. I think talking numbers while we don't know the actual inner workings and formulae that are used, and moreover not even a really representative set of specimens to talk about is more or less just assuming how things work.

Overall my own personal experience is that there's a good chance of recovery, I don't see the recovery system in need of any change.
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2010, 05:15:27 AM »
The numbers are 1d20 + con modifier against a DC of 1d20 + 10. At glance, I figure that gives a chance of 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=55 out of 400, per roll. For ten rolls, that's 1 - (345/400)^10 = 0.77 = 77% chance. It's really being quite nice to you.

However, it's probably rare that you get to do ten rolls. At five rolls it's 52% chance.

On the other hand, if you have a con modifier of +2, then it's 88%  and 66%.

If anything, I feel it's too nice to you :O

/EDIT:

As a note, just realised that you'll never get to do ten rolls actually. At 0 HP, you are already stabilized, and at -10, you are dead. Doesn't make an overly significant difference to above numbers though.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 05:18:34 AM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2010, 11:59:47 PM »
Your all forgetting that no two dice roll exactly the same. There plastic moulding causes imperfections or heavyer locations on each die. This is why most gamers think they have lucky dice or high rollers, or that there karma is makin um roll hot. The only way the above calculations pan out is of course with the dice systems implemented in POTM or other MMO's. AAs for the plastic dice there is a method involving a microwave.....

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2010, 05:35:37 AM »
If you have a Con modifier of -2... ...try not to get stabbed because you'll generally always bleed to death...especially if you get hit to -5 or something.

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2010, 02:01:50 PM »
As much as all these post are nice to read, and we got a basic response from the staff (im being generouse by describing it as basic I think) it does not explain the rediculouse random DC rolls we have to make. I just died and had to roll something like...

DC 15 (failed)
DC 26 (failed)
DC 31 (failed)
DC 32 (failed)
Dead.

Why ar ewe subject to rolls in numbers we are never going to hit?

Major Tom

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2010, 10:22:39 PM »
As much as all these post are nice to read, and we got a basic response from the staff (im being generouse by describing it as basic I think) it does not explain the rediculouse random DC rolls we have to make. I just died and had to roll something like...

DC 15 (failed)
DC 26 (failed)
DC 31 (failed)
DC 32 (failed)
Dead.

Why ar ewe subject to rolls in numbers we are never going to hit?

I'd say it's probably because this isn't 4th Edition, where everything is so tediously balanced out that all classes are the same, there's no diversity, and everything is so fair and balanced out that it numbs any sort of gaming experience because you can never die.

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herkles

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Re: Recovery checks random? Should be regulated.
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2010, 10:32:05 PM »
I have had both were I succeded my recovery checks and where I failed them. It just depends on your fort and luck. The best advice I suggest is not going alone, that way you can hopefully stay alive.