Challenges for spellcasters

[Aldarris]

24 hours is optimal.  Clerics and Druids can only gain spells at a certain time in the day, so it makes sense.  Sorcerers require an extended period of time to recharge their powers. Wizards minds will get fried from trying to memorize ridiculously complex incantations.

And this will present a challenge to casters- how to remain efficient over an extended period of time.

[Badbelly]

Few challenges to casters and also the other power builds, enforced after level 7.

- Restrict resting to once every 24 hours but increase spell duration to 24 hours.

-Tweak the XP system. Players who go out Solo get little or no XP from killing things.

-Change the death system for those who die alone in unpopulated areas. Dungeons, caves, etc.
     a) All items in inventory are droped on the ground.
     b) Only allowed to respawn.

[Aahz]

How about something like having doors to dungeons (or certain parts of dungeons) that will only open if they are touched by two or more different characters withing a 30 second time frame? You could even key it to CD key so that one player could not open it only their characters; or that idea about lowered XP for soloing; or increased treasure with more party members; or increasing the effectiveness / duration of a spell when cast on someone else; or being able to buff two party members with one spell.

Might as well call a shovel a shovel and scrap the entire game engine mechanics and code an entirely new game.

[Pepchko]

well if it was set to 24 hour rest cycle my character personally would be useless in combat. i lose spells per day every time i shift from bat/wolf/mist form and i have hard enough time juggling that. this would be the nail in the coffin.

this of course is only relating to Sorcerers with the Vampire spawn template, so its a very small number. but a 24 hour in game stretch would make someone in my position utterly useless. that needs to be taken into account.

i still think a time Hinderence is a bad idea. and the example above is just one of many.

[herkles]

I have to agree with Stravokov, Mostly because the fact that having a long time limit on resting would not be fun for alot of people. The idea of adding the VFX back to spells would be a neat idea and might help a bit.

[Grieyls]

You know, exceeding the rest period will effect noncasters as well. Especially if you play a caster the same way I do. That is you use your spells to buff the fighter into a unstopable machine of destruction while at the same time providing rear guard tactics, IE; firing offensive spells from the rear...

Oh wait, the buffs on the fighter just ran out and we are in the middle of the coal mines with enemies all around... Well sorry, can't regain those buffs for another twenty minutes fighter dude, guess you're toast. Well if I could rest sooner I'd have you back up dealing death to those pesky shadows no problems... But hey, gotta wait that whole day now.

The coin has two sides my friends, exceed the current rest period and you basically take away the only edge non casters can get from a caster character. Keep in mind, yes some players play casters so they can solo dungeons. They like solo play, not all of us do. The game is so much more fun when partying up. That's how I like to play and that's why I like the current system the way it is now.

So if you want to play a fighter type and are looking for an edge... look my Character up... He loves to see you fighter types decimate dungeon minions

Not a fan of having those VFX back either.... The thing about them being gone is that... Well you never know if the one you're trying to threaten is just an ordinary joe or one who can bite back. That is the whole point of Gothic Horror, it's the unknown that unnerves us, I'm sure MPC find the VFX absense a great boon to thier... well shall we say, horror roleplay

[Pepchko]

ill say it again. 24 hours in game works out to 120 minutes in real time, aka 2 Hours real time. that is a ridiculous amount of time to have to wait for spells.

that is not a challenge, it is a complete hinderence. some players dont even have that amount of game session time to play in one sitting.

[Aahz]

I have to agree with Stravokov, Mostly because the fact that having a long time limit on resting would not be fun for alot of people. The idea of adding the VFX back to spells would be a neat idea and might help a bit.

I think all that would happen if spell VFX were brought back is the 10,001 complaint threads about the "glowing hamster balls" standing around everywhere that we had before.

[marlewebber]

Few challenges to casters and also the other power builds, enforced after level 7.

- Restrict resting to once every 24 hours but increase spell duration to 24 hours.

This second part occurred to me, that the previously reduced spell durations could probably go back to "normal" considering they still won't last the entire day, if spells were regained at 24 intervals.  But down time isn't a bad thing.  When a caster is able to rest often and utilize safe rest zones to be continually fighting, they're basically avoiding the roleplay of having a drained spellbook.  And there's a lot that could be happening with that time.  It's a position of vulnerability that requires creativity and the restraint to try to always have another ace in the sleeve... which would equate with less spell flurries and more immersion.

This is the way that noncaster classes get to have Fun as well.  They get moments in there where they can be cool too, with a 24 hour rest clock.

[herkles]

I do wonder, would people be willing to play if they had to wait -2- hours real time. 2 real time hours, so they can play a game? that is as stravokov said a hinderence not a challenge.

[marlewebber]

There are safe rest areas, too.

[ThAnswr]

Considering the majority of people defending casters are, oddly enough, the casters themselves, it would be more appopriate to call the crowd that want them to be nerfed into a balanced condition sadists, not masochists.

Then again, you could also argue that since the only people who are non-casters, the barbarians, pureclass fighters, and rogues, are the ones playing the really weak classes, they too are the masochists, and that the true sadists are actually those who want to continue playing their hugely powerful caster class that outdoes a pureclass fighter in what they focused in.

Woah, nelly. Looks like be have a whole S&M club going on in the balance.

In the end, I can't see much that can 'challenge' these demigod casters withot either A) Limiting their power or B) Becoming impossible for a non-caster class.

Short of, of course, dumping a thousand Dispel spamming monsters into every dungeon we can see being farmed.

FYI, many of those opposed to removing VFX's were casters who knew that was a gift from the rpg gods.  But, I digress.  

Since the  rhetoric and hyperbole is getting so meteoric and damned near worthy of Cicero, now might be a good time to pour oneself a cold one, sit down, put one's feet up and watch the trainwreck in action.  

[Space Cowboy]

I haven't made a comment on these posts yet, and yes I play a wizard so yes i'm probably biased.

But why is it people are trying so hard to fix something that doesn't need fixing?
Challenges are good, yes.
Limitations are not.
Why are people lobbying to have spellcasters moderated? Because they 'ruin the setting'? Those who are RPing poorly in regards to taking things OOC and causing unnessecary grief are more to blame for ruining the setting than any spellcaster is. Or is it a question of balance? It is the rogue characters who ninja loot the dungeons, not the spellcasters. Why balance is so important anyway, in a server in which PvP occurs relatively rarely, Ii'll never know.

I'm seeing people looking for a fix for a problem that is non-existent. Most high level spellcasters do not even dungeon all that regularly, not compared to their equivalent level rogues and fighters.

Spellcasters are intended to be powerful at later levels. You cannot get around this fact. If you limit them you may as well limit a fighter hitting improved knockdown. At low levels a spellcaster is hopeless and will die very often. No one's calling fer a nerf to a Barbarian's hit points at level 1 claiming it is out of balance with a wizard's d4.

Also consider that not every mage or cleric on the server is power built to the max, unlike the majority of fighters and rogues. Many wizards for example take a specialization, which limits spell options. Many clerics are Lawgiver/Morninglord/Ezrite, which limits their domains. There is no limit to the build with which a fighter or rogue could be made.

And for the record, spell components are a bad idea. Not only is it unfeasible to have components required for every spell, but all that will happen is it will encourage the grinding of spell components by having spell casters raiding dungeons. Needless to say it will be the non-casters who will do the most harvesting of spell components and selling them off at an exuberant price. This would not be RP or dynamics, it would just be frustrating.

I was dead against the removal of the spell VFX, but it seemed like it was what people wanted to make the world more believable. Now there's a backlash against that very same thing. I don't thnk some players will ever be happy and there will always be that class or that race to 'nerf' simply because they consider it unfair.

Really, there is nothing that needs fixing in my opinion, we should all just focus on playing IC with our own characters and enjoy interacting with others... whether they are more powerful than us or not, and whether it is unfair or not. This is no arena server, it is the CHARACTER and their story that matters, not their build and not how much they can pwn your character. The OOCness and selfishness of some of the players, and the negativity often shown on these forums, are more damaging to the server thanwizards/sorcerers/clerics. But that's a whole other issue.

[Emomina]

Just commenting on a couple of things that have come up in this thread. 

Spell effects were taken away when there should have been no visual spell effect. So no harm done there, it still exist if there is indeed a visual on the spell. Like GhostArmor for example.  The game is just much cleaner on screen while buffed, and can not be metagamed based on the visuals which should not be there, so it was one of the best decisions ever made on PotM.

I play non casters characters, and I say a proposed 24 hour rest cycle hurts me too, I don't want to have to wait for the party sorcerer to gain his spells again so we can open the next door of the dungeon.  Especially if that means 2 hours. Seems people are not thinking these ideas fully through. Or they dont actually adventure with casters, in which, why would you care how fast they recover spells.

[Dhark]

  & again for Space Cowboy !

Bring back VFX ...more hunted witches ....more RP solutions to percived IG problems

[Rex]

I do wonder, would people be willing to play if they had to wait -2- hours real time. 2 real time hours, so they can play a game? that is as stravokov said a hinderence not a challenge.

Well why not I have to wait WEEKS of real time before I can find a team orientated caster that happens to be on my schedule.  Also, since the can't Read anything but what they want to See people.  I did point out initially, that the free rest areas would count as well, AND, in case you haven't noticed, roughly 90% of the dungeons, ARE caster or Die Dungeons Already.  You guys make it sound like you have three dungeons you can do.  That's us FIGHTERS.  Not you casters.  I'm also, not saying 24 Hour Rest cycle.  24 Hour SPELL RECOVERY cycle.  So, if you play right, and you play WITH OTHERS, and you use all the other stuff out there.  Potions, Scrolls, whatever, then there is nothing taken away from you, you just have the same challenge the other half of the classes do with the environment.

~Rex

[puckwolf]

AND, in case you haven't noticed, roughly 90% of the dungeons, ARE caster or Die Dungeons Already.  You guys make it sound like you have three dungeons you can do.  That's us FIGHTERS.  Not you casters. 

I die in those dungeons too and I'm a caster. 

And why has this become a you vs us situation?  We're one community of players trying to improve the server for everyone involved, anyone can roll up a caster or a fighter.  I'm pretty sure no one in real life here is a wizard, as far as I know anyways.

[Minstrel]

Problem with the imbalance arises from the following:


Step 1: Take a setting where magic is restricted, and punishments for openly using it are part of said setting. Playing a caster means knowing about this and taking steps to play to this setting.

Step 2: Unfortunately, render non-caster classes weak in comparison to non-caster classes.

Step 3: Community tells anyone who has a problem with the balance that they're free to roll a caster themselves, and end up with a server populated with many more casters than is normal.

Step 4: Have the setting crumble because a lot of the people now playing casters haven't taken steps to play to the setting, and those who are non-caster classes and try to enforce this fail because not only are they outgunned by the casters, they're also outnumbered.

Step 5: No longer does anyone give a damn about people walking through outskirts glowing and wielding flaming swords.

[Emomina]

Whoever shall want to see just how balanced and well thought out the dungeons of PotM are. Please send me a PM, I am 100% CONFIDENT, I can put together a balanced and team oriented party IC to romp through any where you choose.
Its just not nearly as dire a situation as it is being portrayed, and the number of team oriented caster characters that I bother to know, way outnumbers the ones that are not.

[Aldarris]

Well, apparently we are not seeing things completely clearly when we say that implementing a 24 hour spell recovery is a good way to challenge casters.

But neither is everyone else seeing things clearly who say that it isn't.

Sorry, but if we bring back scribe scroll, and make it so that creating scrolls costs a minimal amount of gold and xp, casters will have something to fall back on once their 2 cast per round, greater spell focus DC, increased duration spells are used up.  And if I had a high level caster, I could space out the use of my spells and still be effective.  That means extended buffs for my party, and empowered AOE spells when it's required.  I'd have my familiar dishing out damage also.  I'd have my powerful spells in my back pocket for when my party needs it, able to dish out great damage in a little amount of time...but for the brunt of the offensive, I'd be sitting back allowing those I've empowered with my spells handle it.

If your alternate forms are affective your spellcasting effectiveness Vince, they should be used when in dire need, or when you feel you won't be in combat.

Say I run out of spells.  Am I completely useless for the remainder of those 2 hours? -NO- I actually have a reason to use coin and buy scrolls, and stockpile them when they're needed!  And those scrolls I can't buy?  I'll scribe them myself at the cost of a little experience and the same amount of gold it would cost to buy!

Another challenge presented...finding scrolls and holding onto them.

Aaaah...everyone's happy.

[Iconoclast]

I'm neither a caster nor non-caster. But, I play characters on both sides of the spectrum.

I've spent rl years playing a native Gundarakite non-caster, and know the challenges. I've played a caliban sorcerer and knows the challenges. I'm playing a monk and I'm playing a cleric.

Each class and niche has its challenges which are part of the enjoyment.


Could I powerbuild my caliban sorcerer so that he has the spells necessary to become a solo-machine? Maybe, but I don't. I think that is what some have been trying to get across to some of you. You might see a small handful of players who do powerbuild their casters and then that frustration from seeing those dungeons wipes is then displaced and focused on casters in general.

My level 17 sorcerer is not built in such a way where he can solo areas for his level range without great risk. I don't choose his spells according to what makes him merely powerful build wise, rather I try to find spells which fit the idea of the character.

The only time either of my current two casters adventure/pvm is when there is a party formed up. Playing a caster, as my experiece supports, is already a good and fun challenge. For example, my sorcerer usually has the role of buffing the fighter (who has no chance otherwise), and then stripping enemies of their magic as the fighters charge. Every character and class in these group adventures has a necessary role. That is what the dungeons are built for, and that is how we the players are experiecing the dungeons when possible.

When my non-caster Monk goes out to adventure, it is usually in the company of a fighter and a mage. I enjoy having a class that doesn't have magic to support itself just as much as I enjoy having a caster that does have magic. Both have their roles and challenges.

There is no lack of challenge for either types of characters as things currently stand.

[mayvind]

WoW soo many pages but all the good idea is in the front the back just messy. People just keep repeating themself by hammering theirs own oppinium again and again and again.