Author Topic: Challenges for spellcasters  (Read 34276 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Challenges for spellcasters
« on: November 01, 2009, 05:31:38 AM »
This is a not a topic for discussing the amount of superiority for spellcasters or whether it even is, so please avoid leading any such discussions here, thanks :)

What I'm interested in is inspiration for how to make things more challenging, by that, more interesting for spellcasters. That means, I'm not looking for anything that would feel as overly restrictive or crippling, ending up just hampering the experience and turning it into frustration. Rather, I'm looking something that simply urges spellcasters to be more cautious and less sufficient, deploying less trivial tactics and perhaps more dependant on help from others. It's often been suggested that we have more creatures that cast dispels, but we can't simply slap that ability on to every other creature. Some other ideas would be nice.

Beyond that, let your inspiration flow, no suggestion is disregarded, however small, even if we don't choose to pursue it.

DM Macabre

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 05:34:01 AM »
Suggestion:

Spell component system: the higher the spell - the rarer the component

failed.bard

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 05:44:00 AM »
  Spell recovery that follows the book requirements.  Wizards need a time of study after a complete rest, priests and druids can only recover spells at specific times of day.  This could easily be done by removing the recovery of divine and wizard spells from the normal rest script, and handing out spell book and holy symbol tokens that need to be used to recover the spells.


  I've been playing my druid Lilindi the last two months only resting in the morning (6-12), and dusk (17-19), and I find it adds a considerable amount to the characters RP to have to make time to pray at specific times.

Nalain

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 06:05:57 AM »
I think probably the only thing that would add to the system rp-wise would be the use of spell components. Want to cast fireball? Go ahead and gather some bat guano from some cave. If only they could be made to drop like gold and worn weapon upon subdual or real death so full caster would basically be hampered greatly if the components are taken away, spells not requiring a component excluded of course.

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 06:14:39 AM »
 Making Anti-Magic Zones. I am not telling having an intire anti-magic Dungeon, but imagine that for reaching a certain room in that dungeon, you would need to come across a corridor with enemies and no Magic? That would get most spellcasters a lot weaker, and they would need help to reach the said room.

 Of course, on other rooms and corridors they would come handy as all Wizards and spellcasters are. But on some places they would require help to survive, and wouldn't be the ones doing everything in the dungeon.

Nalain

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 06:26:16 AM »
Now that I think of it, in addition to spell components the only change to the spell system I'd do is that PC's over some certain level (4-5) wouldn't get any healing from NPC clerics (raise dead excluded) unless the cleric is possessed by a DM. That way PC's would actually seek to befriend characters possessing healing powers instead of quickly clicking an NPC for free and instant band-aid.

DM Macabre

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 06:30:52 AM »
Ah and spell failure chances for Clerics and Druids in certain areas:

message: "your deity can't here you in this remote place" or something similar


Also: no resting zones in certain deep dungeon areas
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 06:32:23 AM by DM Macabre »

Nalain

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 06:33:54 AM »
Actually wild magic zones would be most fun.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 07:17:10 AM »
It's great with this many suggestions, but they all seem to orient around restrictions. A wild magic zone or no magic zone, as well as more limited resting, simply disables the spellcaster. I'm thinking of something more in the lines of making the act of exercising your abilities as spellcasters more challenging.

A spell ingredient system isn't a bad idea per se, but my three main concerns with it is, one, will it turn it into a chore, and two, will it cause a performance hog with the constant need for script inventory browsing, and finally three, would it take too much time to implement, having to add pickable ingredients all over.

Nalain

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 07:36:26 AM »
Whenever you cast a spell a dialog is initiated where you must select correct "power words" for the spell to activate?   :P

failed.bard

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 07:38:12 AM »
  The vallaki guard could stop their catch and release program for murderous witches.

herkles

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 07:52:13 AM »
not sure how the magic system works here but a few ideas from my old sever.

gate-depending on your alignment you will get a powerful creature, ie good gets a celestial.

True Seeing
Changed to give Ultravision, See Invisible, and adds +10 Spot instead of the Bioware default spell.

certain spells not being able to stack with one another, ie wounding whispers with death armor for example.


Nalain

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2009, 08:02:11 AM »
 The vallaki guard could stop their catch and release program for murderous witches.

Do they really release known arcane spellcasters? The server definitely needs more witch burnings. That'll surely give some challenge to them.

Mrjunkie

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2009, 08:24:43 AM »
Vallaki Garda should have more free reign to oppress casters, common native pc's should be allowed to form mobs nd lynch folks, ofcourse always keeping it entertaining for all parties to refrain from discouriging players.

As for dungeons, dispells will get you so far, but high SR on creatures will stop offencive casters.
Clerics/Paladins are more tricky as they self buff into war machines, so for them i'd say dispells/arcane spell failure in certain dungeons to balance it out vs the offencive casters.

What i saw in Hazlan with some monsters, immune to magic dmg, DR on elemental dmg, and as a ghost i watched 3 divine casters take on broken ones in the Itu Skoven wich were truely  challenging.
And thats leaving out that freakeh Aberation that just will not die.

Minstrel

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2009, 09:17:15 AM »
A group of creatures that regularly buff themselves, and do so quickly and when out-of-battle. Encourages use of Dispel rather than generic obliteration tactics.

Only problem is stopping them being unfair for meleesters.

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A small kind of mob that spawns with tougher enemies, whose sole function is to run to the spellcaster. When it dies, it releases a heavy Dispel in a small area, meaning they have to be treated like a kind of bomb. Optimum way to defeat them being stunning them with Hold and hitting them from a distance. Similar to a Triloch, but with Dispel instead of Death.

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Spell components for every spell above level 3 ( For lower level mages it'd be a simple inconvenience, and besides most components in those spells are assumed to be automatically in your 'Component pouch'.)

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Things that have +5 weapons, good AB, and Blindfighting.

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Things that are invulnerable to elemental damage, require heavy physical beating to take down effectively.

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Things that are vulnerable to mainly a single element (Can be killed without said element, but requires HUGE amounts of damage. Eg. 80% resistance to most, 50% vulnerability to Ice), requiring varnishes or specific spells/weapons to take down.

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Dispelling traps.

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Monster with dispel aura and good SR. Best targeted by summons or skilled archers.

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ThAnswr

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 09:53:15 AM »
This is a not a topic for discussing the amount of superiority for spellcasters or whether it even is, so please avoid leading any such discussions here, thanks :)

What I'm interested in is inspiration for how to make things more challenging, by that, more interesting for spellcasters. That means, I'm not looking for anything that would feel as overly restrictive or crippling, ending up just hampering the experience and turning it into frustration. Rather, I'm looking something that simply urges spellcasters to be more cautious and less sufficient, deploying less trivial tactics and perhaps more dependant on help from others. It's often been suggested that we have more creatures that cast dispels, but we can't simply slap that ability on to every other creature. Some other ideas would be nice.

Beyond that, let your inspiration flow, no suggestion is disregarded, however small, even if we don't choose to pursue it.

If I may offer a suggestion, rather than looking to change the spellcaster class in some way to make it more challenging, look to change the melee class.  

Better weapons/equipment with more enhancements would go a long way to leveling the playing field between spellcasters and melee classes.  This would make the spelllcaster class more challenging.   

Just my humble $.02 worth.  
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 10:05:52 AM by ThAnswr »
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Nalain

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 09:57:26 AM »
Just note that drastic changes will bring the usual buff/nerf -cycle of MMO's in the game.

I don't really think anything is actually very broken atm, just need more DM's.

Heretic

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2009, 10:53:52 AM »
Think Casters should be encouraged out of the dungeons with other activities as source of progression other than defeating dungeon mobs. A spellcaster (wizard) should be able to gain progress by studying, by writing a treatise, enchanting weapons and so on and even by being part of a circle of knowledge (The erudites, for example)

Spell components are probably the best sink there is to have casters being less trivial and calculate more what they cast; specially the high end level spells which should be the most demanding in terms of components, the low end should be trivial and easy to accommodate the new player to the server. Similarly, this idea can be tied to the death system in having clerics' raise dead/resurrection be less trivial when saving someone, needing components to do so. This would certainly add to the "Witch" RP in my humble opinion, Hala witches clerics would get a nice niche of RP right there.

Components also give a dungeon a depth and a valid Roleplaying reason of repeating the dungeoning cycle; giving the PC a reason to return, because he needs a certain "X" component other than what's inside the chests of the mobs.

Gatherers would become even more of a profession in demand, miners could sink rare gems from their mining in the PC market, finding a rare component here and there when they extract the minerals from the rock. Gem deposits can be placed as well, their location based on challenge; Bluetspur would become a domain where rich gems will be found, ideal for a spellcaster (After all, why would sane men go to Bluetspur other than to be mind-raped), the depths of the mines in Dvervenheim likewise, and Hazlan. This would give wizards reason to travel and harness knowledge, power and associate themselves with gatherers to further their studies. Likewise, gatherers, fighters and rogue classes would be naturally drawn toward casters; as casters will be able to enchant their weapons, cast spell on them to help them reap rewards from dungeons and not only that, but scribe their scrolls (those handy Protections vs evil, that handy cameo/one with the land, stone skin, those see invis), enchant their jewels, and so on.

Edit: If I could, I'd even try to find a way to sink all the useless trinkets found all over the module to some merchant NPC that takes them in exchange of moderately mundane components. Perhaps CNR items like copper weapons which PC's learn from  and toss to the trash after they are done, or else; perhaps taking these trinkets by weight and offering a value of "X" item in return.  Find a creative way to recycle these items into something else; a barovian recycling used ore into making tools, caseroles and stuff like that. Smilarly, these useless trinkets could also be sold at the Bazaar in Dementlieu.


Along with that:

 :arrow: Scribing scrolls

 :arrow: Enchanting

 :arrow: Jewelry & Engineering (gem crushing & herbalism used for spell components as well)

 :arrow: Alternate methods of progression more so than other classes: given how much a casters' progression is tied with learning and knowledge more than physical prowess, perhaps alternate methods should be tied with their level. A wizard spending more time in a library, or in a knowledge center; should be able to gain RP XP at an accelerated rate if in presence of another character. Perhaps increase the multiplier for XP gain in certain areas that aren't dungeons.

 :arrow: Unique trade skill based on the caster type: Wizards enchanting, Alchemy. Offer unique possibilities that are tied with progression and strong abilities. Tie wizards' progression, for example, with enchanting his first high end weapon as a breakthrough, or scribing his first circle 8 scroll.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:35:10 PM by DM Heretic »

mayvind

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 12:28:21 PM »
Ask me !

Remove all the scrolls from NPC in Barovia and lootable(or atleast high levels one) and imprement my long waiting spell scribting system where all the wizard need to gather and exchange spells( just do it like the old time and double the cost to make scroll), promote Master and apprentice mage relationship like 4 years ago. Yves was apprentice to Abraxis and Lomion was her apprentice. RP between apprentice and Master among wizard can be explore but due to overflow of coins and spell scrolls such things is not explore.

Wards crafting and enchantment where several requirement is need like  special feats for it and such and knowledge of different spells and specialization enchantment is require.

More specialization class focus and partly spell components. Not everyspell have to be component just it is stupid to have fireball cast with batguano every time, I probary stink with bat shet all the time.

But Focus more on summons/creat undead spell with various type and ability to chose them instead of depend on class level (low level still limit but higher class should be able to chose stronger version of skeleton captain or a fog zombie ) using component like bones, various gems and such also incress the duration if component was used. Also need to be specialization in summon to do greater summons thinggy like Balor Or Necromancy for Creat Lich or Greater Mummy lord and such as control undead, finger of death, wail of banshee. Weaker type is universal and need no specialization.

Rest restriction is too much hassle and seem 1 side. and is not a challenge but more like a hidrance.



P.S yeah what Heretic say but this is all my original ideas he just copy me
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:30:42 PM by mayvind »

Emomina

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2009, 12:54:25 PM »
Please, don't touch the scrolls :(
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Dhark

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 01:28:37 PM »
The only creature Ive regularly run away from that spawn commonly is Gtr wolf-weres , yet they only spawn in a very few places , maybe mix up the were-wolf & wolf-were spawns ?

Wild & dead magic areas ftw !

How about some kind of implementation of the cultural & magic level system in ravenloft ,...Ie: give every native NPC & monster +1 to save vs spells , or reduce the bonus from hight int & cha for PC casters ?..maybe even both ?

Yes centres of learning would be great ...but it would be out of place with all the sorcerers , though I do agree with the constant release of criminal witches ....Burn em!!

Components are a bad idea ....just count the amoutn of people who gather herbs for easy gold atm & then think ...all it would take is for some witch hunter to turn merchant with a good memory
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 01:36:33 PM by Tarinyar »

eyeofpestilence

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 01:48:41 PM »
  Spell recovery that follows the book requirements.  Wizards need a time of study after a complete rest, priests and druids can only recover spells at specific times of day.  This could easily be done by removing the recovery of divine and wizard spells from the normal rest script, and handing out spell book and holy symbol tokens that need to be used to recover the spells.


  I've been playing my druid Lilindi the last two months only resting in the morning (6-12), and dusk (17-19), and I find it adds a considerable amount to the characters RP to have to make time to pray at specific times.

 :thumbup:

Spell recovery should be separate and independent of the Resting system. Current linkage between resting and spell recovery allows a wizard unlimited spell casting when near a restful room. Separating them and limiting relearning/praying for spells would significantly decrease the insane power spell casters have over other classes without a major system for scrolls or components be added everywhere.

Thanks DW!

Badbelly

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2009, 02:48:00 PM »

I don't feel any changes need to be made mechanics wise and feel it would be a lot of work for little RP benefit. I would suggest changing how they are treated. Magic is supposed to be outlawed in Barovia but it is not treated as such. Spellcasters have little fear of being caught using their craft when in my opinion it should be their most guarded secret. If we treated spellcasters more like Calibans, who have it too easy IMO but that's another topic, it would instill a lot of fear into playing a spellcasters. 

Here is my short list of things too increase challenges for spellscasters and encourage RP.

- punishment of death to anyone caught using magics in the land of Barovia.

- large bounties issued by the Garda for any information regarding the use of magics.

- regular witch burnings, Natives of the land should be burning witches at the stake any time a perceived evil has befallen them.

- professional witch hunters hired by the Burgermaster who actively hunt witches and known associates of them. Native PCs now have a reason to go into dangerous places, hunting for witches.
 


Heretic

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 02:48:53 PM »
Quote
Magic is supposed to be outlawed in Barovia but it is not treated as such.

That's a wrong statement. Magic isn't outlawed in Barovia, it is feared.

DM Nocturne

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Re: Challenges for spellcasters
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 03:09:16 PM »
My 2 cents (based on my wizardly experiences), while avoiding 'restrictions':

 :arrow: I don't think any of the mechanics need to be changed. Comparatively, a fighter is just as capable to rest to full health in Inn rooms, and we don't apply restrictions on the number of times he swings his sword.

 :arrow: I like Heretic's idea of knowledge centres (e.g. Libraries, Spell Towers). This is not a restriction, and allows wizards to progress outside running dungeons with good roleplay.

More specialization class focus and partly spell components. Not everyspell have to be component just it is stupid to have fireball cast with batguano every time, I probary stink with bat shet all the time.

But Focus more on summons/creat undead spell with various type and ability to chose them instead of depend on class level (low level still limit but higher class should be able to chose stronger version of skeleton captain or a fog zombie ) using component like bones, various gems and such also incress the duration if component was used. Also need to be specialization in summon to do greater summons thinggy like Balor Or Necromancy for Creat Lich or Greater Mummy lord and such as control undead, finger of death, wail of banshee. Weaker type is universal and need no specialization.

 :arrow: I don't like the idea of spell components for every spell as Mayvind said. I say spells that animate/summon dead use components. Whatever component you have changes the power of the undead summoned. If no component, then the weakest version.

 :arrow: Wild and dead magic zones shouldn't be too common as it's usually a rare thing.

 :arrow: Guards could be more distasteful on mages, inacting greater personal justice. But not officially against the law to use magic. If you go and chase down and perm every caster on the server then you'll get a lot of annoyed players.

Remove all the scrolls from NPC in Barovia and lootable(or atleast high levels one) and imprement my long waiting spell scribting system where all the wizard need to gather and exchange spells( just do it like the old time and double the cost to make scroll), promote Master and apprentice mage relationship like 4 years ago. Yves was apprentice to Abraxis and Lomion was her apprentice. RP between apprentice and Master among wizard can be explore but due to overflow of coins and spell scrolls such things is not explore.

 :arrow: Spell scroll scribing system (SSSS) and mentorship with sorcerers and wizards would be a fun thing to do and would help in roleplay and in reducing the dungeon-running.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 03:16:56 PM by AcidZealot »