Author Topic: Bards  (Read 9267 times)

Goldforge

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Bards
« on: February 28, 2006, 05:48:29 AM »
This question has been bugging me for a while, as I play a native and don't quite know how to react to Bards.  Where do they get their spells from?  I've always believed that they get their arcane magic in the same way Sorcs do, but what about their divine healing spells?

Are they a priest/mage multiclass that can sing?  Because they don't act very priestly.

Also- Isn't it a bit odd how every person that can sing amazingly (AKA a Bard) can also cast spells?

Gwegowy

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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 06:22:44 AM »
Quote from: PhB 3.5, page 26
A bard brings forth magic from his soul, not from a book.


While bardic healing spells may have the same ends as divine magic, none of a bard's abilities are divine in nature.

Natives of Barovia often perceive openly cast bardic magic in the same light as the powers of a sorcerer, with fear based on a lack of understanding.  Where a cleric asks the gods to heal a wounded person, a bard is somehow able to draw on a perverse witchcraft directly to close wounds over, perhaps after having consorted with demons in some pact.  After all, while forces above may have supernatural abilities, humanoids do not, unless tainted by dark forces (so goes the stigma).

I have seen a few bards on the server RPing that their abilities are not arcane in nature (one elf uses enchanted oils that he drinks and gives to others, though it still scares the hell out of NPCs.  They don't know the difference), so just remember that there are exceptions to every rule.

In terms of scroll use with UMD, if a character is an arcane-sensitive sort, I would suggest using tells.  If someone uses a scroll of Divine Favor, a Barovian will likely react the same way they would had a priest cast that spell; however, if someone uses a scroll of Protection from Alignment, one could ask the player if they remember if it was arcane or divine.  If they cannot remember, I would leave it to the caster to decide which it was, then act accordingly.
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Goldforge

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Bards
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 06:42:38 AM »
Cheers, that pretty much covered it.

Just seemed odd how Bards can cast healing spells and yet Sorcs can't.

Bluebomber4evr

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Bards
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 11:03:44 AM »
It all depends on what part of Ravenloft your character is from. Bear in mind that not all natives view magic the same way. In Kartakass bards are revered. Darkon and Dementlieu are both accepting towards magic.

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kunou126

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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 11:23:33 AM »
Speaking of bards and cure spells...

In the Ravenloft 3.5 PHB, a bards cure spells are supposed to have a failure chance.

Quote

Weaknesses: A bard's cure spells (such as cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, mass cure light wounds and so on.) have a chance of failure due to the whims of the Dark Powers.  At 2nd level (when a bard becomes eligible for casting 1st level spells), the base chance of failure is 50%.  This percentage drops by 5% every two levels thereafter, so that by the time the bard reaches 12th level, she can cast cure spells with no chance of failure.

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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 11:35:06 AM »
I recommend ignoring any of the new rules in the 3.5 ed. Ravenloft Player's Handbook...they're poorly written and unnecessary. Stick with the 3.0 campaign setting rulebook.

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Dodt

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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 08:42:58 PM »
There is a special kind of magic within music and ones emotions thats where a bard's magic comes from. It is somewhat like a sorc but not exactly the same, I guess doing things the way a bard does grants them some different powers.

Raziel

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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 09:15:32 PM »
Bard magic usually takes a stretch of the imagination.
Like a healing song encourages natural healing, entagling tunes encourages plant growth, and an ivisabliity dirge distracts the subject from whatever the bard turns invisible.

I've always felt bardic music takes a bit of a stretch, but giving them spells from the generic lists keeps us from having to hold onto another spell book.  Figure saves 10 more pages from being printed in the players handbook.  Also keeps us from saying "bard spell 'x' is just like wizard spell 'y', it's just (less/more) powerful."
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Knas

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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2006, 07:06:51 AM »
As I've always seen it, it's a huge diffrence between arcane and divine magic
Arcane You speak in arcane tounges and chants.
While in divine you praise your god/say some prayer, asking for strenght of whatever it is you want.

I'm not sure but this is what I think atleast, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

Hades

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2006, 08:58:32 AM »
Bards magic comes from their music.  The purpous of a bard is that they are part of the magic weave because of the song in their heart.  A bard is both divine and arcane, and yet none of the above.  As stated before bardic magic comes from within themselves.  Many have speculated that a great deal of bards have the blood of a dragon (sorcerers are the same way) which would explain the casting.  I however feal that bards, though yes some could be part dragon, are primarily -part- of the magic weave.  I believe that a bard has a magical song played in his/her soul from the time they are born, and from this song they garner the ability to heal wounds, or cause them.

Thats just me though, and I didnt spend much time on typing this, so its unorganised and I prolly left a few things out.  I will try to edit it later, but I got a hundred things going on at once right now. Bleh
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Raziel

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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2006, 10:31:37 AM »
Good point.  
The magical weave is something new to think about.  It would explain why a bard playing a song has an effect someone else playing it can't produce.
Even a man who is pure in heart
and says his prayers by night
may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms
and the moon is large and bright.


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Knas

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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2006, 10:39:13 AM »
Actually it says in the D&D description that bards spells are an arcane ability, like sorcerer.

Bluebomber4evr

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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2006, 03:07:00 PM »
Bear in mind that "the Weave" you're speaking of is unique to the Forgotten Realms, and that the Forgotten Realms setting is not the "standard" for D&D magic.

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Goldforge

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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2006, 05:14:08 PM »
If spellcasters from Krynn get their magic from the three moons and the spellcasters in Toril get it from the weave... Where do the spellcasters in Ravenloft get it?  Do the Dark Powers grant the arcane spells aswell as the divine?

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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2006, 06:07:09 PM »
Quote from: Goldforge
If spellcasters from Krynn get their magic from the three moons and the spellcasters in Toril get it from the weave... Where do the spellcasters in Ravenloft get it?  Do the Dark Powers grant the arcane spells aswell as the divine?
Arcane spells aren't granted in any of those settings. Arcane casters are simply tapping into an "energy source" of arcane magic when they cast their spells. I'll have to check some of my resources, but as I understand it, all arcane spells get their energy from other planes (Negative Energy, Positive Energy, Shadow, Ethereal, Astral, the Elemental Planes, etc.). Things like the Weave or Krynn's moons facilitate how those energies interact on that particular Prime Material Plane and how they "become" spells.

Ravenloft, being a demiplane in the Ethereal, is closer to most of those planes than a Prime Material world. I would imagine the Dark Powers allow such energies to enter their microcosm, but it's not "granted" by them.

Of note is the cult of the goddess Hala, whose worshippers believe that magic is controlled by a "Weave" in a similar manner to that of Toril...but just because they believe in a Weave in Ravenloft, it doesn't mean Ravenloft has one. ;)

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Motley

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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2006, 08:19:38 PM »
Just to make things clear in case I ever get accused of sorcery. You CAN see Griff's bard spells AS spells a mage or a sorcerer would cast, they're not unseen bonuses and effects from him having a marvellous tenor voice.

I RP my bard spells as sorcerous abilities. I RP bardsong as leadership bonuses from that stupid charisma, I RP dirge as the effects of having one scary mother with a hold over negative energy racing at you trying to kill you.

So if you see me cast, accuse me all you want  :wink:

In the end, I guess it's a case-by-case basis. Ravenloft is the most diverse of ANY setting character and spell-wise, so to say all characters are a certain way is just silly.
Really, the only restrictions you have are the ones you put on yourself. So long as things make sense RP things however you want. Thats what I think anyway.

Xan

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2006, 05:30:12 AM »
Quote
Just to make things clear in case I ever get accused of sorcery. You CAN see Griff's bard spells AS spells a mage or a sorcerer would cast, they're not unseen bonuses and effects from him having a marvellous tenor voice.

I RP my bard spells as sorcerous abilities. I RP bardsong as leadership bonuses from that stupid charisma, I RP dirge as the effects of having one scary mother with a hold over negative energy racing at you trying to kill you.


I have a diferent point of view, I disagree from taking class levels just for special abilities. From that point of view clerics and druids can say they're just super heroes and dont need a source or deity to get spells from.
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Gwegowy

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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2006, 05:40:30 AM »
I don't mean to sound insulting, but what does that have to do with Griffin's sorcerous bard spells? :think:
"Men can make mistakes.  And men can do the most unholy things to gain their own ends, if they are convinced that their own way is right and that it is the only way...  Heaven defend me from such good men."

Xan

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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2006, 10:07:44 AM »
No insult taken. What I meant wasnt the sorcerous abilities, but the rping of a bard ability (that definetly has something to do with song) like its a character special ability (that doesnt have anything to do with song).
Just diferent views and to each his own.
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Forral

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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2006, 12:29:52 AM »
I should mention that this is just my thoughts, and if you ask me to prove anything I'm gonna sit here like a moron.

However...

There are many various types of bards, and while many may sing and prance about it is far from the only way to play them. Examples include but are not limited to: Loremasters, performance swordsmen. spymasters, storytellers, charlatans, and so on.

Bardsong as I see it has nothing to do with song, as absurd as that sounds. I feel that the bardsong is an ability connected to the character's ability to perform. This performance does not necessarily include any singing or dancing, but rather something that's connected to the character's other abilities.

Perhaps his showmanship and fighting inspires his allies or frightens his foes?

Perhaps he's reciting the brave tales of their ancestors to bolster the morale of his friends and demoralize his enemies?

Perhaps he's capable to appear valiant and brave due to his acting skill, and through this manages to turn the tide of battle by inspiring his frightened friends?

If bardsong just was about song we could question why the skill it depends upon is called "perform" and not "singing" or an equavilient of that. Really, the various names of the songs from PnP are merely so we know what we're talking about and what they do. They are technical terms not meant to be taken word-by-word.

Bottom-line is that there's a number of ways you can interpret the Bardsong. Simply limiting it to "song" in just takes a piss upon the versatility of the bard class in terms of RP.


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Motley

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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2006, 12:37:13 AM »
Of course it does. Bard song is a direct representation of the subject's charisma, it's not a friggin limerick or poem. Who the hell here would, on top of all the adrenaline, give a shit about some damn song mid-combat? I certainly wouldn't feel any more moved to survive. Bard song is inspiration, not a damn poem recital, and thats what I'm getting at. Think of the theory that a bards abilities are directly tied to magical blood in their veins, namely, dragon blood. Does a dragon have a fine singing voice? Maybe, maybe not, but what it DOES have is a force of personality, and thats whats being passed through genetics/magic blood. Sure, bard song may very well be a song or poem outside of combat, but in combat it's force of personality, it's an ability to perform and inspire others, and I'm thoroughly convinced that I'm doing it correctly.

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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2006, 01:00:45 AM »
Yeah i play a bard as well, and i run along about the same lines, singing or storytelling only out of combat. Order of the Stick's first few comics illustrates exactly how silly it could get if all the bard's abilites were tied to singing. Force of Will and Presence pretty much sums it up i think

Sum-loth

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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2006, 10:27:18 PM »
The closest example that I can relate to the bard is the Bureaucrat class from Anarchy Online. The Bureaucrat had several abilities: namely, wearing shades and a suit and using suitcases as weapons. His primary ability, however, was to give "pep talks", which raised the fighting capabilities of all of his allies for a certain amount of time.

This is the case with the Bard Song. A bard's Bard Song can be any number of things: a motivational speech, a rallying cry, the blare of a trumpet horn, or, simply, the person's presence and commanding aura. Restricting it to "a guy strumming a lute" is positively silly.

As for magic, the red dragon blood idea is the most prominent reason for bardic magic. It could also be the idea that the bard is simply born with a more natural understanding of the "rhythm" of the world, and is, thus, able to draw his or her power from it. Alternatively, it could be there simply to help make the bard's jack-of-all-trades motif more prominent. The choice is yours, I suppose.

Xan

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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2006, 01:40:59 PM »
Heheh yes youre right bard song is silly,
Not having the ability linked to song does give alot more flexibility to the class.
And there are many things in dnd that dont make sense or seem silly from a realistic point of view.

And now a shameless distraction:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=3
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Paul_H

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Re: Bards
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 11:51:57 PM »
Hi

Geraint's just becoming part of the Lightbringers, so I'm looking into songs/hymns suitable for the Morning Lord.

Eg.  Used 'Morning Has Broken' against some nasty undead the other day.

If anyone's got any other ideas, please let me know

Thanks