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Author Topic: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter  (Read 5493 times)

hugolino

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IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« on: August 21, 2009, 03:14:27 AM »
I've been reading several different posts on the forums about the use of magic in the Barovian setting, and I wondered if perhaps a "Witchery Reputation" meter, similar to the Exhaustion system, might be helpful?

It would be fairly simple: Every time a player casts a spell or uses a potion in front of an NPC garda (or perhaps any guard, peasant or nobility NPC) they would gain a point of reputation for witchery. This would have no observable immediate effect, and if they abstain from such behavior their meter would slowly go down back to zero, similar to the Exhaustion system and taking it easy. But if they continue such behavior it would continue to rise until they would gain temporary caliban status or something similar.

The difference between this and Outcast Rating is that Outcast Rating is more durable, while this would be temporary. Perhaps the level of the spell and/or the familiar/companion summoned could factor in to how much the reputation grows.

Note that there is no exception for healing spells/potions, because the fact is that healing magic is "barely tolerated" by Barovians and Gundarakites, according to a DM post (I believe) on this setting. And, regardless, each observed instance of someone using healing magic would strengthen the player's reputation as one who uses witchery, even if the use is benign and tolerated.

Is this a decent idea or a horrible one? I am suggesting it, but I may have overlooked much that makes it completely impractical. Feel free to shoot me down with magic missiles.

Spoiler: show
From Native Barovian and Gundarakite Role Play Guide here: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=6563.0

Quote
   Gundarakite and Barovians barely tolerate healing magic.  They do not differentiate the different schools of magic.  Their daily lives are devoid of such acts.  Therefore, they react to the visible effect of a spell or prayer.  A cleric summoning an undead warrior and a mage doing the same will be treated equally in their eyes.  This goes for any other visible spell, such as barkskin, stoneskin, flameweapon, and the like.  Because of this fear of witchcraft, any item or weapon that appears “tainted” by witchcraft, such as glowing blades, will be viewed as dangerous.  The average Barovian and Gundarakite will never use any item that has these “frightening” properties.  If an item is magical, but does not make its magical property obvious, such as a simple plus one dagger, then that item is fine, since as far as the native knows, it is just a nicely crafted blade.  Items that illuminate light though, such as robes, may be looked upon suspiciously; common folk use natural light sources.  

    The temptation to use magical items or spell abilities that the engine provides your character class is a role playing challenge.  For example, a Gundarakite ranger will at some point have the engine ability to cast some arcane spells.  However, due to the Gundarakite’s ideology, they would be oblivious to this.  They would never even dream of learning how to cast spells.  They may however, through prayer, if they like many Gundarakite follow the Morninglord, learn to cast healing spells.
 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:12:19 AM by hugolino »

darkpriest

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2009, 03:52:53 AM »
I've been reading several different posts on the forums about the use of magic in the Barovian setting, and I wondered if perhaps a "Witchery" or "Reputation" meter, similar to the Exhaustion system, might be helpful?

It would be fairly simple: Every time a player casts a spell or uses a potion in front of an NPC garda (or perhaps any guard, peasant or nobility NPC) they would gain a point of reputation for witchery. This would have no observable immediate effect, and if they abstain from such behavior their meter would slowly go down back to zero, similar to the Exhaustion system and taking it easy. But if they continue such behavior it would continue to rise until they would gain temporary caliban status or something similar.

The difference between this and Outcast Rating is that Outcast Rating is more durable, while this would be temporary. Perhaps the level of the spell and/or the familiar/companion summoned could factor in to how much the reputation grows.

Note that there is no exception for healing spells/potions, because the fact is that healing magic is "barely tolerated" by Barovians and Gundarakites, according to a DM post (I believe) on this setting. And, regardless, each observed instance of someone using healing magic would strengthen the player's reputation as one who uses witchery, even if the use is benign and tolerated.

Is this a decent idea or a horrible one? I am suggesting it, but I may have overlooked much that makes it completely impractical. Feel free to shoot me down with magic missiles.

Spoiler: show
From Native Barovian and Gundarakite Role Play Guide here: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=6563.0

Quote
   Gundarakite and Barovians barely tolerate healing magic.  They do not differentiate the different schools of magic.  Their daily lives are devoid of such acts.  Therefore, they react to the visible effect of a spell or prayer.  A cleric summoning an undead warrior and a mage doing the same will be treated equally in their eyes.  This goes for any other visible spell, such as barkskin, stoneskin, flameweapon, and the like.  Because of this fear of witchcraft, any item or weapon that appears “tainted” by witchcraft, such as glowing blades, will be viewed as dangerous.  The average Barovian and Gundarakite will never use any item that has these “frightening” properties.  If an item is magical, but does not make its magical property obvious, such as a simple plus one dagger, then that item is fine, since as far as the native knows, it is just a nicely crafted blade.  Items that illuminate light though, such as robes, may be looked upon suspiciously; common folk use natural light sources.  

    The temptation to use magical items or spell abilities that the engine provides your character class is a role playing challenge.  For example, a Gundarakite ranger will at some point have the engine ability to cast some arcane spells.  However, due to the Gundarakite’s ideology, they would be oblivious to this.  They would never even dream of learning how to cast spells.  They may however, through prayer, if they like many Gundarakite follow the Morninglord, learn to cast healing spells.
 


Nah... magic missles are for whimps.. i prefer FoDs  :twisted:

But to be honest I am more in favour of regular Outcast rating going sky high instead of some temporary inconvinience... people do not forget that you've blasted something with a fireball.. or summoned some 'creature'....

Lets hit casters with OCRs... each spell used in front of Barovian should increase that, unless it's a spell - cure wounds, remove disease/poison/curse, restoration. I am not sure about resurection and raising dead... that could be too much, even though it is beneficial, it's highly unnatural.

Little Lotte

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2009, 03:55:05 AM »
I second that notion! It might bring some fear back into being a caster! You never know when Radu is going to run at you with his giant maul and smash your head in for casting shield!

hugolino

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 03:58:19 AM »
But to be honest I am more in favour of regular Outcast rating going sky high instead of some temporary inconvinience... people do not forget that you've blasted something with a fireball.. or summoned some 'creature'....

Lets hit casters with OCRs... each spell used in front of Barovian should increase that, unless it's a spell - cure wounds, remove disease/poison/curse, restoration...

We're talking about a reputation and not firsthand experience. If some spellcaster lays low and keeps out of trouble, perhaps changes their clothing and hairstyle (or not), they may not be recognized as a suspected witch after a while. In real life, even crimes get forgotten by the general populace in time, except among those who were victims. How many of us can recognize by sight our local regions murderers from not-recent times?

Speaking OOC, it is good to reward people for learning their lesson and maintaining the setting. And it also does give them the option to on occasion break the rules without it having permanent repercussions.

each spell used in front of Barovian should increase that, unless it's a spell - cure wounds, remove disease/poison/curse, restoration. I am not sure about resurection and raising dead... that could be too much, even though it is beneficial, it's highly unnatural.

I don't think there should be an exemption for healing magic. It is still magic, and repeated observations of its use only strengthens a reputation of witchery. Perhaps minor healing magic results should result in a lesser increase of witchery reputation however, but that would be the case anyway if the amount of reputation gain is tied to the level of the magic performed.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:16:58 AM by hugolino »

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 03:59:40 AM »
Actually Italian Ravenloft NWN server used to have a full system of overall fame and reputation based partly on some not-changing things (being an elf for instance) and partly on what actually was done, in good or bad, or known and it was dynamic. Always scared to propose something like this here. Because it'd need a lot of Dm supervision and it's hardly possible: what some characters know about other characters is often more than what DMs know, and the system would favour just those who have more DM-driven plots. In the Italian server it worked until there was still a sort of 1:5 rate Dms/players, which is something we don't have here.
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hugolino

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 04:01:02 AM »
Actually Italian Ravenloft NWN server used to have a full system of overall fame and reputation based partly on some not-changing things (being an elf for instance) and partly on what actually was done, in good or bad, or known and it was dynamic. Always scared to propose something like this here. Because it'd need a lot of Dm supervision and it's hardly possible: what some characters know about other characters is often more than what DMs know, and the system would favour just those who have more DM-driven plots. In the Italian server it worked until there was still a sort of 1:5 rate Dms/players, which is something we don't have here.

This is more like infamy rather than fame, and would be limited to NPC-observed use of magic, whether cast, herbal or summons.

In contrast, Outcast Rating is more of a situation of social class.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:07:13 AM by hugolino »

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 04:27:57 AM »
Outcast is not just social, but racial and of nationality. Actually I even doubt it is that -social-. Noble Barovian and peasant Barovian are treated the same (by NPCs I mean).

And again such a system, even if only aimed at magic-using, would need a DM control. Which I doubt can be granted now.
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Bluebomber4evr

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 04:43:55 AM »
the outcast ratings we have already do something like this.


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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 06:18:04 AM »
However, Outcast rating dosen't change automatically. I could stand in front of the guards and buff myself up, and without DM presence, I'd have no penalty for it.

Question is how far the radius of their viewing would be. I'd probably say you'd have to go over the entire world map and lay down regions in which casting would be a bad thing ( Morninglord temple, the hub area of the Outskirts, near farms, anywhere in a city, et cetera) which would take a long while and probably cause lag. Would be a really nice system, though. I just personally prefer giving the guards a tool to alter Outcast Rating, so that it can be done without a DM around.

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 07:25:36 AM »
However, Outcast rating dosen't change automatically. I could stand in front of the guards and buff myself up, and without DM presence, I'd have no penalty for it.

Question is how far the radius of their viewing would be. I'd probably say you'd have to go over the entire world map and lay down regions in which casting would be a bad thing ( Morninglord temple, the hub area of the Outskirts, near farms, anywhere in a city, et cetera) which would take a long while and probably cause lag. Would be a really nice system, though. I just personally prefer giving the guards a tool to alter Outcast Rating, so that it can be done without a DM around.

The Outcast rating does, or is supposed to change automatically when you cast spells in front of NPCs... I for one think the action of "Lockpicking" should up the rating as well.  It's skullduggery after all!

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 10:09:25 AM »
Does that include buffing and Cleric spells? I've seen people standing around in the outskirts buffing up with what is quite obviously not healing spells, and Radu not lifting an eyebrow.

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2009, 11:13:56 AM »
the outcast ratings we have already do something like this.



Any known flagrant caster should have a higher Outcast rating then a Falkovnian Fighter.

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Shadowthrone

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2009, 12:22:31 PM »
From what I have heard there used to be a system whereby you automatically receive increased OR for casting in front of NPC's, but it was removed due to the fact that it did not take into account disguises and such.

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 12:31:30 PM »
Cleric magic is not included as outcast rating warranting afaik. Wether clerics are witches or not has been discussed numerous times before though so I'd rather not see this thread derail into that again.

Zedrik

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 05:28:13 PM »
the outcast ratings we have already do something like this.



Any known flagrant caster should have a higher Outcast rating then a Falkovnian Fighter.

~Rex


Werner's OCR fluctuates between 12ish and 15ish.
Sometimes it's enough that Guard PCs are automatically set hostile. And sometimes the soldiers in Barovia are hostile. But the guards in Vallaki never are that I've seen...

Warning: Don't provoke the high-level Falkovnian wizard. He bites. (And not in the good way.)

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2009, 06:13:19 PM »
Maybe they've just learned.

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2009, 01:13:23 PM »
the outcast ratings we have already do something like this.



Any known flagrant caster should have a higher Outcast rating then a Falkovnian Fighter.

~Rex


Werner's OCR fluctuates between 12ish and 15ish.
Sometimes it's enough that Guard PCs are automatically set hostile. And sometimes the soldiers in Barovia are hostile. But the guards in Vallaki never are that I've seen...

Yeah that's just Werner though.  :D  Otto's never done anything bad to anyone...  *looks innocent and saintly*

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darkpriest

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2009, 01:47:14 PM »
the outcast ratings we have already do something like this.



Any known flagrant caster should have a higher Outcast rating then a Falkovnian Fighter.

~Rex


Werner's OCR fluctuates between 12ish and 15ish.
Sometimes it's enough that Guard PCs are automatically set hostile. And sometimes the soldiers in Barovia are hostile. But the guards in Vallaki never are that I've seen...

Yeah that's just Werner though.  :D  Otto's never done anything bad to anyone...  *looks innocent and saintly*

~Rex


-wonders why he never have seen Rex's PCs IG personally yet, so he could say something about the above statement-

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2009, 09:25:10 PM »
I feel this is something that needs to be handled more IC. My caster has not yet "Come out of the closet" because she (a Barovian) is scared to death about what other people will think about her. I, as a human player, do not need to worry about whether or not the Vallaki guards are red, green, or blue when I do so. Though honestly, I've screwed around OOC and found guards and the like who don't so much as blink when I cast Burning Hands so long as it doesn't hit them. That needs to be worked on.

Call me old fashioned, but IC roleplaying with occasional DM supervision can work just fine. I wouldn't even mind having the DMs tip off, say, Guard Faction players through tells as if they "Heard it through the grapevine" whenever someone casts near Barovian NPCs. The Garda players would then investigate. It's really not all that much different from the occasional "DM_XYZ - [Shout] Something spooky is going on in the West..." Actually, there's an idea. Use server-wide shouts to broadcast rumors of spellcasters in detail. "[Shout]A current of fear runs through the city as a hooded man dressed in white reportedly unleashes foul magics in front of onlookers at the Vallaki gates..." And the posse comes a-runnin'.

Get creative. I know they might not appreciate it, but I'd sooner put this sort of thing on the DMs rather than the Devs. If you want to talk about what really puts the fear of god into not just a spellcaster on PotM, but any D&D/Neverwinter Nights player? It's a DM who just painted a big ol' bullseye on their character.
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WildPirate13

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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2009, 11:50:04 PM »
I am in favor of the grapvine method, if occ used however could be drastic.

 Makes certain feats more desirable as well.


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Re: IDEA: Add witchery reputation meter
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2009, 06:55:30 PM »
I feel this is something that needs to be handled more IC. My caster has not yet "Come out of the closet" because she (a Barovian) is scared to death about what other people will think about her. I, as a human player, do not need to worry about whether or not the Vallaki guards are red, green, or blue when I do so. Though honestly, I've screwed around OOC and found guards and the like who don't so much as blink when I cast Burning Hands so long as it doesn't hit them. That needs to be worked on.

Call me old fashioned, but IC roleplaying with occasional DM supervision can work just fine. I wouldn't even mind having the DMs tip off, say, Guard Faction players through tells as if they "Heard it through the grapevine" whenever someone casts near Barovian NPCs. The Garda players would then investigate. It's really not all that much different from the occasional "DM_XYZ - [Shout] Something spooky is going on in the West..." Actually, there's an idea. Use server-wide shouts to broadcast rumors of spellcasters in detail. "[Shout]A current of fear runs through the city as a hooded man dressed in white reportedly unleashes foul magics in front of onlookers at the Vallaki gates..." And the posse comes a-runnin'.


I agree with the above and like the idea.  :)