Author Topic: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature  (Read 2041 times)

Emomina

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Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« on: August 11, 2009, 04:32:22 AM »
With all apologies to those that are tired of suggestions, I have one. I will continue posting them when I have ideas until told not to. This is a big one in my opinion. This is an unnerf or anti-nerf. This is a call for restoring power to classes that could use it, and bringing them in line with their pnp counterparts.

I passed level 8 a while back with my rogue PC. It dawned on me that she should not be flankable by this point. While fighting I have always scrolled back up to track whether opponents were gaining flanking bonus to hit her. I notice that she still can be flanked, and being a 3.5 geek (and not super familiar with NWN's 3e implementation), i decided to check the wiki for when Rogues gained this class feature in NWN, and to my disappointment, it is missing from the game.

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Type of feat: Class

Prerequisite: Barbarian level 5, Rogue level 8, Assassin level 5, Dwarven defender level 6, Shadowdancer level 5,
OR Uncanny dodge from another class plus Barbarian level 2, Rogue level 4, Assassin level 2, Dwarven defender level 2, Shadowdancer level 2

Prerequisite: None, Its an automatic gained class feature for the classes listed

Specifics: A character with this feature can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another character the option to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more class levels, in their class which provides sneak attack, than the target does.

Use: Automatic

Special:
    * If a character has more than one class that provides improved uncanny dodge (or uncanny dodge) the total levels of both classes are used to determine the minimum class level required to flank the character.
    * If a character gains uncanny dodge from one class but already has it from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.


Now, I am biased of course, being a player of a rogue and barbarian primarily. I like to think that just makes me more knowledgable about the balance of these two classes than most. But I am of the opinion that few additions could improve the usefulness and balance of so many classes and prestige classes. The fact is, as of now, a level 2 rogue could be the flanker against Kayne and sneak him the whole time. Its one of the things that makes a barbarian different from a fighter. And with the class checks and balances, rogues have enough to worry about from martial classes and casters without worrying about other sneaks. Rogues have less hitpoints and lower AC and lower AB, and the lack of sneak vulnerability and being flanked is one of the ways they make up for it and still make decent combatants.  A rogue PC should thrive on the streets of Port-a-Lucine after dark, but instead are one of the most vulnerable to the skanks and thugs without it.

I'm not intimately knowledgeable with NWN's scripting, but the presence of the non-flankability part of this class feature being already present in the game (Dwarven Defender's Defensive Awareness) has me at least a little hopeful its doable.

What this addition does in my opinion is makes it a more rewarding character choice to play a Rogue or Barbarian or a combination of the two, also makes the Assassin and Shadowdancer PrCs have an added class feature, which is something that SD especially could use. I post this as a pipe dream as much as anything. I know with all the variables, it would be a pretty hefty script. I miss this though. Would be a really great addition or re-addition depending on your DND background.
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Minstrel

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Re: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 06:33:07 AM »
I'm actually against this feat, at such low levels. It would render a lot of rogues especially useless in PvP, and encourage a lot more cheesy multiclassing of five levels of Barbarian, without the RP implied by the class (E.g, Kayne).

I'd personally put it at a much later point, for examble Barbarian 14, Rogue 12, Assassin 8, Shadowdancer 5.

Immunity to Sneak Attacks is a very powerful feat against all rogue-types, and makes Assassins practically useless.

I'm all for buffing up the Barbarian and Rogue classes, along with Fighters, don't get me wrong, but giving a feat this powerful at low levels will likely result in a lot of Cleric 12 / Barbarian 5's and such.

Emomina

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Re: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2009, 06:59:20 AM »
Just to clarify though, its not immunity to sneak attack. its immunity to sneak from flanking and immunity to the +2 on all the rolls to hit you while you are flanked. Its not a feat, its in the class progression table, and gained at the levels listed. And assassin are still dangerous, they are completely unaffected by iuc, because the opponent has to be flat-footed and DA has to occur in the first volley of attacks in the initiative round, so they cant DA from flanking position anyway.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:02:54 AM by Emomina »
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Minstrel

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Re: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2009, 07:19:16 AM »
Still, I'd rather see it at slightly higher levels. Grabbing two levels of rogue and getting pretty much immunity to most sneak attacks, AND +2 AC vs. flanking opponents, is a damned powerful feature.

Emomina

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Re: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 07:37:03 AM »
Its not as powerful as you think, and its vanilla DnD, not homebrewed. Jeez, this is beginning to look like the time when I brought up Combat Reflexes (also from the Player's Handbook) seems everything missing looks too powerful to those who are unfamiliar.

The combination of Improved Uncanny Dodge classes only are added to determine the sneakability of the feature. So a Cleric 15/Barbarian 5 example that you gave will get sneaked all day if Reiko is flanking them as a level 9 Rogue.  And Kayne being level 15 I think, is pretty much immune at this point because 10/10 Assassin/Rogues and 20 Rogues don't exist, no one plays them.

I'd love to play the Rogue as it exist in the player's handbook is all I'm saying. Barbarians need less help, but their danger sense is supposed to manifest in the progression of Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense reflex bonuses.

 Lacking improved uncanny dodge along with traps that are too difficult unless min/maxed to the point no one brings a rogue to search and disable, the extreme difficulty in building a good sneaker these days and add the lack of dexterity based general feats like combat reflexes and it results in an underpowered class compared to its design. Thought this was a good idea, and wouldn't scare anyone, but apparently its too uber. Good thing we aren't playing NWN2 :D

Maybe placing it at level 6 for a Barbarian would eliminate the temptation to multi a barbarian for the minimum 5 levels.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:44:37 AM by Emomina »
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Minstrel

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Re: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 07:48:21 AM »
Ah! Yeah, I completely forgot about the +4 levels thing.

In that case....

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PolarSam

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Re: Improved Uncanny Dodge Class Feature
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 05:45:49 PM »
IUD is missing in NWN? Well that's just bs.. it's one of the only handy combat perks rogues get (after the sneak round), and a barb is just a pissy fighter without it :(