Greater Sanctuary changes - Ethereal Jaunt

[failed.bard]

For those that don't have it, or haven't cast it lately, this is the message you get when you cast the spell now:



  You're not actually able to walk through objects, though the spell does allow the opening of doors to reflect that you could pass through them being ethereal, which is what the spell has moved closer to.

  I had a fairly long talk with Soren in game about the changes, and he went into a bit of detail about what they were trying to accomplish with it.

  As before, casting any offensive spells, or attacking, will end it.  The new changes will end the spell any time the PC or NPC tries to interact with the material world.  That includes buffing others, healing others, trying to pick up any object, open locks, or in any way affect the environment around you, including summoning.

  Considering the character I have that uses GS is a buffer/summoner, it affects her considerably.  Despite that, I agree with the reasoning Soren gave for why it was done.  I'm sure once all of the modifications to the spell are put into place the full list of changes to it will be placed in the spell changes thread, assuming they haven't already.

  I'm hoping this helps anyone that was curious pending the official announcement of it from the Dev team.

[mayvind]

So this mean i can walk through my locked cell anytime i want ? da... right ? Or this is just contradict each other, getting all the bad not the good ?

[Corvus]

Crag Cats got magic immunity? 

[failed.bard]

Crag Cats got magic immunity? 

I made a thread for that part of the screenie.  It's a two-fer.

[robbythedude]

WaitWait...
To Tired..
Mis-read your first post!
I'll re-type my argument back out in the morning, and such.

[ThAnswr]

*****removed by player****

[Emomina]

In Dungeons and Dragons, the ethereal plane is distinct from the material world, and the spells Ethereal Jaunt (lvl 7) and Etherealness (lvl 9) take the caster, and the caster and others in the latter, into the Ethereal plane.  You can not affect the material world at all for the duration of the spell, but you can see it (it looks hazy and gray).  And you yourself are still vulnerable to force attacks, such as the spell Magic Missile. Also you are able to pass through solid objects, even living creatures.  
So, the spell changes are good, but since you still cant move through walls etc. you should be able to open doors to make up for it. I have no clue if you can, but if is like you said, and opening doors returns you to the material plane then maybe that should be fixed. Other than that, looks like the spell has the limitations that were intended.

[ThAnswr]

In Dungeons and Dragons, the ethereal plane is distinct from the material world, and the spells Ethereal Jaunt (lvl 7) and Etherealness (lvl 9) take the caster, and the caster and others in the latter, into the Ethereal plane.  You can not affect the material world at all for the duration of the spell, but you can see it (it looks hazy and gray).  And you yourself are still vulnerable to force attacks, such as the spell Magic Missile. Also you are able to pass through solid objects, even living creatures.  
So, the spell changes are good, but since you still cant move through walls etc. you should be able to open doors to make up for it. I have no clue if you can, but it is like you said, and opening doors returns you to the material plane then maybe that should be fixed.

I was modifying my post and it must've crossed with yours.  Sorry.

I logged in game and tested Ethereal Jaunt again.  Yes, you can open doors.  Maybe my experience last night was just a glitch.  

I also tested Ethereal Jaunt by trying to pick up an herb.  Ethereal Jaunt dissipated.  

Using that example, I was going to inquire as to how rescuing a char by picking up the body is a hostlie act, thereby breaking this new version of Ethereal Jaunt, but honestly, it doesn't matter.  

Frankly, I don't care if Ethereal Jaunt replaces GS and further complies with D & D 3.5.  I didn't come here to play an animated version of a tabletop game.  The fact is, at the end of the tabletop game, the game is put away to play another time.  This is a PW and one bad roll changes the game forever.  

I came here to play NWN with a Ravenloft twist.  That game no longer exists and, for me, what has replaced it is a pale vision of what it was.  At some point you have to accept the reality that the game you once enjoyed is gone.  

[Emomina]

I miss your point about Dungeons & Dragons Persistent World built using NWN versus table top.  Are you under the impressions that tabletop D&D is somehow different? Its completely not, other than its less limited, because you don't have to script in anything, its all in your mind.  But one bad roll can change everything is both, and consequences are actually harsher in table top because you probably have to wait a week before you can resolve them.

I really do not like seeing a fellow good player expressing such disappointment over a change. I wish everyone could be happy with everything, but alas, we both know its just not possible.


The reason you are maybe confused about picking up a body (being a nonhostile action).  The point is, while ethereal, you can not (meaning not physically possible) affect anything. So instead of not being able to touch anything in NWN, it will just return you to the material plane.

[Shadowthrone]

It's not as if you can't pick up a body and then cast it.

[ThAnswr]

I miss your point about Dungeons & Dragons Persistent World built using NWN versus table top.  Are you under the impressions that tabletop D&D is somehow different? Its completely not, other than its less limited, because you don't have to script in anything, its all in your mind.  But one bad roll can change everything is both, and consequences are actually harsher in table top because you probably have to wait a week before you can resolve them.

I really do not like seeing a fellow good player expressing such disappointment over a change. I wish everyone could be happy with everything, but alas, we both know its just not possible.


The reason you are maybe confused about picking up a body (being a nonhostile action).  The point is, while ethereal, you can not (meaning not physically possible) affect anything. So instead of not being able to touch anything in NWN, it will just return you to the material plane.

It is just one annoyance in a game that has become fraught with annoyances from nerf'ed spells to new systems like exhaustion.  This game is no longer NWN with a Ravenloft twist.  It is something else and the PtB are well within their rights to implement their vision.  No argument here. 

It's not as if you can't pick up a body and then cast it.

Of course, you can do that, but that is not my point.  A player can do a lot of things, but at some point, it is nothing more than an annoyance and a further manipulation into how the player "should" be playing their game based on someone's vision of NWN and NOT NWN. 
 

[Rex]

One could always Implement, Etherealness now that Ethereal Jaunt is in, allowing people to rescue bodies, and or even taking others with you (though not sure how that would work, Radius like the other "group" spells or Mass Haste?).....

Once the minor version is debugged of course.

~Rex

[Emomina]

game based on someone's vision of NWN and NOT NWN. 

I hope I don't come across as nagging the subject, but your quote above is also valid. Think of this though, NWN is Bioware's vision of DND, and so we have moved very slightly back toward the real game in various areas, but still limited by the base game that they created. Its a circle of life kind of thing, < cue Disney's "Lion King" music >

D&D is a game with rules for nearly everything you can imagine having to adjudicate in a fantasy medieval world, and we get off easy with NWN, in areas such as spell recovery, encumbrance etc.
Dungeons and Dragons and games based off the rules of the game are more toward hardcore Role-playing games, where things are as "real" and follow "real world physics etc" as you can reasonably imagine in a world like ours 1000 years ago if dragons and magic etc had existed. Its a game where every action has real consequences and spells have limitations. If you are carrying a heavy load and are not a dwarf your movement speed is slowed when wearing plate mail, and its much harder to tumble away Attacks of opportunity, because you must dictate that you are doing so before hand, and move at half speed, and each subsequent AoO is at a -2 penalty to the tumble check, making it increasingly likely you will get hit eventually.  Why do I bring these up? Because these are just two examples where NWN allows your character to do things that would have consequence in the real game.

The spirit of the ruleset is based on consequences and limitations, so that you feel really good when you pull something off exactly how you wanted, you feel proud almost.

There are many games that are fun, and have gone the route of less "inconvenience" and they are very popular, proving that most people don't like dealing with consequence or adversity when playing a game. I get that. Even 4th edition D&D itself has headed down that route. But we play a persistent world based on 3rd, and based on a D&D campaign setting, even implementing the unique rules found in the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guides for dark power checks, fear, horror and madness checks, even some Ravenloft feats like "soothing presence". So I am super glad everytime the server moves toward the game that I know, and less like what Bioware produced ruleset wise. (the game itself is great and they did a great job)

[ThAnswr]

One could always Implement, Etherealness now that Ethereal Jaunt is in, allowing people to rescue bodies, and or even taking others with you (though not sure how that would work, Radius like the other "group" spells or Mass Haste?).....

Once the minor version is debugged of course.

~Rex

That would probably would be the best idea as it wouldn't simply be another half-measure in the name of balance that seems to result in putting something else out of balance.  Thus, the neverending cycle of perceived imbalance (or "the player isn't playing my way"), rebalance, unbalance something else and then go back to square one.  

However, my best guess tells me that implementing Etherealness to balance the loss of GS is not in the vision of the PtB and was  certainly not the intention in removing GS.   I don't believe the idea is to phase in all of D&D, but to create something new based on how the PtB think a player should play this game.  That is my objection.  

This isn't NWN nor is it D&D.  Both those games have withstood the test of time in that there is something for everyone.  This is a new game designed to "encourage" players to play a certain way.  

I hope I don't come across as nagging the subject, but your quote above is also valid. Think of this though,  NWN is Bioware's vision of DND, and so we have moved very slightly back toward the real game in various areas, but still limited by the base game that they created.

I understand that.  But the problem is that you cannot keep adopting half-measures without affecting the game balance and squeezing the life out of it in a process that never seems to end.   D&D and NWN were balanced games that had something for everybody.  If you were a fighter, you did not have access to a caster's spells, but you had magic weapons.  Here, a fighter has neither and the caster is overpowered and  out of balance.  Well of course they are when you artificially remove the fighter's balance (weapons) to the caster's spells.  So, the caster gets nerf'ed again and again and again.  Which then affects something else down the line.  

But, this is not about balance.  It's about a vision of what the game should've been which is neither NWN nor D&D.   

Rex's idea is a good one and I'll give him a dollar if it's implemented.  Something tells me I'll be keeping my dollar because the intention isn't balance (?), but direction.  

[Kaspar]

I don't understand what the big fuss is about. Are you just complaining because you can? Has this spell change actually ruined your game play completely? That's the vibe I'm getting, and it's pretty disappointing.

To be somewhat constructive, the spell only breaks while opening a door if a hostile creature is around. That's what I've noticed, not sure if it was fixed or changed since.

[failed.bard]

  It's not supposed to break on any door, from what Soren told me.  Any specific ones that do should be reported, preferably in a nicely labelled thread of its own.

[Avatar6666]

I think what the ThAnswr is saying is that so much stuff has been changed that it is no longer a NWN Module anymore. So worried about Balance that the game is starting to loose its fun.

[kezzalord]

To be honest... this is a good change.
It resolves the issue where true seeing can't see through greater sanctuary which left this spell basically unbeatable.

Before this change, Narell had an unbeatable spell chain that at best you could survive... but she was soloing demonoligists without taking a single hit.
Because true seeing had changed, the game had a horrific imbalance with this spell and regardless of authenticity... this spell had to change to avoid "golden-path" spell combinations.

So even though it nerfs my character massively, I think it as the right decision.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Honestly, if someone can't enjoy the things we are doing, then I'm sorry, but maybe this is just not the game for you? It isn't a matter of us just doing things wrong, but a matter of preference. Our preference has attracted enough players, and satisfied them, to make our efforts worthwhile to us, and the experience still enjoyable to take part in. But at least as important, we never intended to please all, but to create something unique within our niche, with devotion to what we believe makes for a fascinating, immersive experience. I still feel we can justify following our own ambitions, even if takes us far away from the core NWN game, and to some, continues to ruin POTM forever.

Thanks for making the post, failed.bard, I'll probaby reuse some of it to update the list of spell changes.

[Rixula]

*Claps and wipes a tear from his eye* Nice talk...*sniffles*

[ducky445544]

Honestly, if someone can't enjoy the things we are doing, then I'm sorry, but maybe this is just not the game for you? It isn't a matter of us just doing things wrong, but a matter of preference. Our preference has attracted enough players, and satisfied them, to make our efforts worthwhile to us, and the experience still enjoyable to take part in. But at least as important, we never intended to please all, but to create something unique within our niche, with devotion to what we believe makes for a fascinating, immersive experience. I still feel we can justify following our own ambitions, even if takes us far away from the core NWN game, and to some, continues to ruin POTM forever.

Thanks for making the post, failed.bard, I'll probaby reuse some of it to update the list of spell changes.

*Post removed, sorry*

[Bluebomber4evr]

I think what the ThAnswr is saying is that so much stuff has been changed that it is no longer a NWN Module anymore. So worried about Balance that the game is starting to loose its fun.

That's complete nonsense. Bioware gave people the tools to change whatever they want about the way the game works, including spells, and encourages people to tweak it however they want. A NWN module can "feel" however its author wants it too. And that's exactly what we're doing here.

EDIT: this is not to say that we don't listen to feedback or make adjustments based on complaints. But to complain about changes being made at all is ridiculous. That's the nature of the NWN engine and what makes it so great: you can change anything. In regards to this specific spell, the default script, as written by Bioware, assumes that the player is playing solo offline and has to get through a long campaign doing everything himself. As this is a PW that encourages multiplayer interaction, spells need to be adjusted accordingly.

[Avatar6666]

What i was trying to say is where do you draw the line at changes.  Some spells and feats interact together and thus if you change one you should look at the next. Now i am not trying to tell you how to run your server. I am just saying their is a snowball effect once you start changing alot of spells and feats.

[Rex]

The worse snowball effect I see, is that folks become unable to do something unbalancing that they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place.

~Rex

[Rixula]

Alright, i dont see anything that you could possibly add here...shouldnt it this post be locked by now?