Fear effects

[ThAnswr]

As much as I like the ideas here, Could we not just accept the game mechanics as they are instead of endlessly trying to re-write NWN into a different game?

Normally, I'd tend to agree with you.  But I think that horse left the barn a looong, looong time ago. 

No it didn't , see, it tried to leave the barn but got stuck in the corner and just stood there with black skulls flying over its head.

Very clever.   

[Jadow_Valroth]

I personally don't like the idea of having an AC so low that when you did RP running away in horror, and got AOP's on you anyways, every one of them hit you. There are some pretty extreme monsters that can cause fear sometimes, and in this case, fear, would also mean your death.

As far as PvP went, this would also be a little over powered. While I don't completly enjoy running around like an idiot getting AOP's on me from the fear spell, at least you still have the AC to keep from dying to quickly. More times than not, the fear spell wears off and you continue onward. But in this case, I could see alot of people dying and then coming back and saying something about it.

My vote, leave it be how it is.

[peluscious]

As far as PvP went, this would also be a little over powered. While I don't completly enjoy running around like an idiot getting AOP's on me from the fear spell, at least you still have the AC to keep from dying to quickly. More times than not, the fear spell wears off and you continue onward. But in this case, I could see alot of people dying and then coming back and saying something about it.

My experience is very different than yours.
Usually they keep fearing me again, and my AC let me die slowly.
But i respect your opinion.

[boompowclash]

..I just had a small epiphany, perhaps it won't seem noteworthy to others, but lets try it : what if Fear spells/effects rendered the same effect as being Antagonized?  If it could additionally "stop" any combat actions, that'd be even better.  You could then choose to run, cast a spell, keep attacking, all with penalties appropriate to being very very afraid.

Role play... is options!!

[peluscious]

I don't like it.
If you're really really afraid, you run.
Unless you're cornered. Then you fight like a little girl.
That's the PnP version of fear and that's how i see real life fear.
Except that cornered things sometimes becomes deadly. But i don't think its necessary IG.

[failed.bard]

The current NWN fear, especially when applied to fear auras, is more deadly than hold spells or paralyzing attacks, because at least with those you're not also giving up constant attacks of opportunity.
  I think the blind and silenced effects applied when you get knocked unconscious would work well for fear, if combined with a hefty AB penalty.   You're still helpless, and quite vulnerable, but you could at least pick tthe direction you run away in.

[peluscious]

Blindness?
I don't agree.
But instead of silenced, maybe something like 50% spell failure.

[kenpen]

Yay! I mention how crappy fear is, and people talk about it.

If I mentioned some angled plate armor, will someone give it to Gorn? He'd like it!

[Kaspar]

Ahaha. No, give me the angled plate first!

Back on topic,

I'd say a -10 AB, and -5 will save would be very decent. It'd still be useful in PvP as well if you use it correctly.

[peluscious]

I still think a big penalty to everything. Otherwise some people will stay fighting as a tank.
If you get a penalty to everything, you will want to run. The advantage will be a decent run, not the stupid path the ai chooses.

[failed.bard]

The blindness would be to prevent targetted spells and missile attacks by a character under the "fear" effect.  It also simulates a bit of the headless chicken effect the current fear effect gives, in that you could well run into a group of monsters or trap while trying to get away from the first one.
  It needs to still leave you in a helpless state, but my suggestion gives at least some abilty to control the direction you run.  Also, being blind, if you run a short distance and then stop, you and your character both won't know how close the creature/caster is to you, adding an element of unknown to it, instead of OOC frustration, which is all the current effect causes.

[Kendric98]

I agree and would like to see this change for bolth fear and turning. However Ac should only be lowered to flat footed. The Ab penalty sounds good.

[peluscious]

Alright. You convinced me about the blindness.
I agree with you.

[Emomina]

how would the blindfight work with that?  2 of my characters have it.

[peluscious]

yeah... there's that to consider.
but anyway, nobody should fight while in fear.
Maybe it could work anyway. Its like you're fighting with your eyes closed because of the fear. If you got blind fighting you can do it better.
Anyway, with a huge penalty to AB, it probably will be useless.
I still think a penalty to AC is needed to avoid people tanking while under fear effect.

[boompowclash]

Blindness is a good suggestion for RP, it would be one situation where people don't "remember" seeing anything ; they were too panicked.

[kenpen]

Why shouldn't you fight while in fear? People fight while peeing themselves all the time. Not very strategically usually, but fear doesn't just mean you run away.

And, I happen to hate blindness, and I don't think it makes much sense.  I *still* get blinded if I come close to dying, but then get healed at the same moment. Is that supposed to happen? It's irritating as hell. Full hit points, blind and deaf and all that other dead stuff. *Really* irritating. Anyway, off the topic.

How about something like this... fear, for the duration of the effect, gives you the AB, etc penalties. Every round, you get a will check, which decreases in difficulty until the fear wears off. If you fail the will check, then you flee randomly for one round, as per the normal fear. But next round, you get another will check. Fail, you flee again, pass, you can fight (with the AB/Etc decrease.) This happens until the fear effect ends, as per whatever normal rules for the spell/aura/whatever.

Least then, it would simulate you getting less scared over time, and less willing to run unwillingly around in a circle getting the crap beaten out of of you.

And, god, no more blindness. Bleh. People remember seeing things when panicked. Often, not what they want to remember, but in much more vivid detail.

[peluscious]

Why shouldn't you fight while in fear? People fight while peeing themselves all the time. Not very strategically usually, but fear doesn't just mean you run away.

Because it would keep it more like the standard fear, and because i like to think that fear in ravenloft is worse than RL fear.
And, in PnP there is a feat that reduces how much fear you feel. We don't have this here, so i think it would be nice to keep it the run-for-your-life kind.

[kenpen]

Making fear cause blindness just takes one spell with a crappy effect ( ---->  ) that doesn't make a lot of sense (and is really irritating) and tries to fix it by adding *another* spell effect that isn't quite as irritating, but makes even less sense.

You should remember what you see. The spell doesn't cause blindness. And there is no amount of cheese that will come out of people being feared, if blindness is included. Why not just add daze, with the rationale that when you're scared, you're "sort of in a daze?" It's just shoddy logic. Fear is supposed to make you run. Cool. Fine. How about having /some/ sort of control over where you run? I actually wouldn't mind the fear if all you could do is run, but you could CONTROL where you ran. There's nothing that makes less sense than having your character run towards what it's scared of, then away, around in circles, all with no control. I think you *do* sometimes run amok when you're scared, maybe to hide behind a wall or under a table or something, but then after a few moments sets in, you have a choice to do something else. Run elsewhere in a more controlled fashion (if the thing comes closer), or fight (if you grow some balls.) Or, maybe you panic again, and lock up, run in circles, etc. I still think it would be better to just have the penalties the whole time, and get will checks to steadily increase your chances of controlling your actions with each passing turn.

Oh, but wait... I guess I don't care, because PfE trumps them all! 

PfE FTW.

[Thoraion]

I really hate the lack of diversity about fear as it is now - for the reasons already given here.
Though, forcing the victim to run is not per sé a bad thing...

The real trouble is that the fear effect forces the victim simply to run - no matter whether it even increases the peril.
Maybe there's a way to solve that? Is it possible to implement a mechanism that makes someone under fear effect to run away from anything hostile and prevent it to approach it?

To me, it seems that there are at least 2 conditions required.

1 - run
2 - cower in fear

Run may be the default condition resulting from fear. A sucessfull recovery check reduces it to the second condition. But how can we solve the problem with AOOs until death? Make any melee attack on the victim automatically restore the "run"-condition to "cower in fear".

As for the "cower in fear"-condition, i would not make it worse than it is in PnP - though it is not possible to simulate that in NWN. So what? A penalty that is worse than flat footed seems ridiculous to me. Yes, that favors tanks with no Dex-bonus at all, but that does not really bother me. What is more important is the offensive potential.
Arcane spell failure of 90% sounds as fair to me, as does a -10 BAB modifier. That does not make success impossible, but the risk of trying usually outweighs the potential benefits. However, it allows a heroic last-stand (yes, the complete opposite of what fear should be - but think about it)

[failed.bard]

  I thought about daze, but I'm pretty sure you can't run while dazed.
  Blindness would simply represent your single minded intent to flee.  You'd essentially be oblivious to anything not right beside you trying to kill you, for the duration of the spell.  It might not be a great alternative, but it seems a reasonable alternative to watching your character run back and forth like an idiot until they die.

[peluscious]

There's nothing more heroic than defeating something with -10 AB and -10 AC.
And 90% spell failure. As long as it is 50% or bigger, i'm ok with it.
Actually, as long as we don't be stupid in fear instead of running in fear i good enough for me.
No matter what penalty put in place.

[engelfire]

Fear is very tricky thing really. If you get feared you have to rp it out, its not gonna work that you suddenly get -10 to ab and AC when theres no rp backing it up you know what i mean?

at first people might be all "aaahhh iiiihhh run away!?!" but soon it just turns into "meh, penalties again" and the characters avoid the monster for the duration of fear. Now you thinkin that what am i babbling about again, thats the way it should go right?

well yes, but it turns from Ic to OOC very, very fast. therefore fear is one thing that almost has to be forced upon players, otherwise it just wont work, not with this current generation of superheroes.

Also fear is shouldnt be able to block with PfA since fear is one of the basic survival instincts and everyone feels fear, BUT, that is not the issue here. lets not talk about that, we already have 9 pages of it

[peluscious]

You do have a point.
Is it possible to change only aura fear?
Or only NPC fear?
Or yet, imrpove the AI of the running moron that our characters turn into?

[Knas]

Problem I see with the idea is that if you're able to constrain yourself and run freely then the AI won't be able to keep up most of the time. Lag and bad nwn pathfinding makes it really easy to dodge npc's in places with containers / doors / placeables and the entire thing would really make the mobs that use fear weaker. The entire thought of the effect is that you're supposed to panic and either stand frozen or dart randomly around.