Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion

[ThAnswr]

I honestly have a bit of a problem with ninja looting herbs and leaving spawns untouced sometimes. Many folks claim to do it to be nice OOC, so someone else can get the xp and loot. However, half those people seem to be acting contrary to their character. The biggest example I can think of is a cleric of a good aligned deity using GS to ninja herbs and passing by numerous evil creatures that I am sure their deity would want vanquished. By bypassing the critters, you are using the spell for your own benefit and not accomplishing what your god gave you special divine powers to do in the first place.

Maybe you'd prefer this solution:  Kill all the spawns AND take all the loot while gathering herbs?  Let me know how you feel about that. 

[Rex]

Toss in some Stjel Magic Eaters, problem of high level ninja-ing casters solved.

~Rex

[ThAnswr]

Toss in some Stjel Magic Eaters, problem of high level ninja-ing casters solved.

~Rex

How about we just stick to the problem of low level dungeons being farmed to extinction and leave our pet peeves out of this?   

I don't like ninja looters anymore than you do, but since there is nothing in the POTM rules against ninja-looting, it is a fact of life. 

Once you accept that fact, we can move forward with real solutions instead of coming up with the same old/same old that is never going to happen.     

Now, put your thinking cap on.   

[Rex]

Toss in some Stjel Magic Eaters, problem of high level ninja-ing casters solved.

~Rex

How about we just stick to the problem of low level dungeons being farmed to extinction and leave our pet peeves out of this?   

I don't like ninja looters anymore than you do, but since there is nothing in the POTM rules against ninja-looting, it is a fact of life. 

Once you accept that fact, we can move forward with real solutions instead of coming up with the same old/same old that is never going to happen.     

Now, put your thinking cap on.   

I did.  The Primary perpetrators of this are the Casters.  There is nothing that is even a remote threat to them in those areas (as opposed to the non casters which can die with quickness), hence, balancing out the environment with something appropriate is a simple and fair solution.  While there are many multitudes of critters that can't be effected by mundane materials or ability, there is effectively, nothing, that has the same effect vs the magic (ranged KD bolts do not count).  Not seeing many of the Anti-Magic monsters (or Areas), if any, and something like the Magic Eater, well, promotes teamwork. 

Suddenly that section of the player base that gets shouted down so much for just wanting a shot at areas, has a use beyond being a guard, a potion-a-holic, or hoping for an eventual Monster PC application.

Several dungeons have things that (since the dungeon is effective for melee people to be in) will WRECK a melee persons day (Rust Monster, Ambushing Grey Ooze, Monster needing +2 or better weapon to be hit).  This keeps them from annihilating those dungeons on a casual reflex, or prompts them to form teams.  There is no Caster Equivalent, unless I have missed the Rhakshasa Dungeon.

Any implementation of a new crafting system is going to cause a Grind Issue with the Massively top heavy player base we have here, so if you want to start it on a fair an equal footing, you either balance the playing field effects, or, you balance the playing field, with a vault wipe.  Either way problem solved.

~Rex

[HellsPanda]

this isn't the problem of just casters soloing dungeons, any mid level warrior can easily and without risk solo these places. And do so for the Alchemy reagents. Most low to mid level areas don't need casters anymore, they help, but there are enough tools that will work around the need for casters.

Not all problems are caster related

[ThAnswr]

this isn't the problem of just casters soloing dungeons, any mid level warrior can easily and without risk solo these places. And do so for the Alchemy reagents. Most low to mid level areas don't need casters anymore, they help, but there are enough tools that will work around the need for casters.

Not all problems are caster related

Which is my point, btw.   

Since the player base is getting so big, how about level restrictions on some dungeons?   It's done on other servers for the very reasons people are expressing here.

How about moving the herbalism/alchemy components out of low level dungeons?  Let low level dungeons be places where players can gain XP and level without having to run into higher levels looking for herbs/alchemy components.

POTM is having growing pains and maybe it's time to revisit ideas that weren't necessary when the playerbase was half of what it is today. 

[HellsPanda]

well I am opposed to level restrictions, this is a mentality issue more than anything else, a lack of patience

[peluscious]

I think its a plausible idea, but i vote against it.

I'd rather live with the problem of not finding loot or crafting stuff than finding messages that i can't get into some place because of my level.
I had the experience of finding a high level antagonist PC in low level caves, and it is not impossible to imagine the opposite happening.

Anyway, it is well worth the discussion.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I doubt level restrictions on dungeons will ever happen, atleast as long as I have a say in it. We've done a large effort for the world to feel alive and let it react by what can be considered IC, and something like that would completely go against those principles. In the end, what we aim to do is to orient ourselves around the roleplay elements, and to that, the population amount concerns, while still relevant, will always come secondary.

[Rex]

I doubt level restrictions on dungeons will ever happen, atleast as long as I have a say in it. We've done a large effort for the world to feel alive and let it react by what can be considered IC, and something like that would completely go against those principles. In the end, what we aim to do is to orient ourselves around the roleplay elements, and to that, the population amount concerns, while still relevant, will always come secondary.

Which is a very good point, and also why I wouldn't be for level restrictions for certain dungeons either.

Not all problems are caster related

Didn't say they were.  However, it wouldn't come up as the topic of multitudes of threads, over multitudes of years, if it weren't an issue.  It doesn't become a stereotype until a noticeable population does the same thing over and over and over again.

Now, Not long back the last time this topic came up I croaked one of my PC's in the middle of a major crafting spawn area (and lower level dungeon), and sat there, for 7 REAL days, watching people cruise through that area.  Was laid off at the time so I had a lot of free time to kill.  Not the most powerful of dungeons but I did get to see that it was capable, of killing mid level fighters (and rogues if they stopped running), and beating the hell out of higher level fighter types (unless they were a monster PC I got a good laugh out of watching the Monster PC's stroll casually through leaving trains of things piled up on transitions).

LOW level casters would cruise in and Smoke the place like a bee hive (tanking a familiar).  High level Caster would come in and Nuke it (glowing Hamster ball of Doom).  Many of them, would Camp there, or just outside the area and hit the place as the spawns cycled through.

Spend a week as a ghost in a major dungeon and it becomes readily apparent, Who, is Doing What.  To return on topic though, perhaps more INCENTIVE, to get the higher levels off to other areas of the server where they should be anyway, as opposed to constantly having them under foot in the low level Hub areas.

~Rex

[ThAnswr]

I'm not crazy about level restrictions on areas either.  One of the reasons why I don't play FRC is because of the multitude of restrictions and rules.   After a while, you feel as if they might as well hand you script to play the game. 

But, other than hoping things change in the name of good sportsmanship, I honestly can't think of a solution.  Certainly, if my char, and I'm sure other chars, could find a certain herbalism component other than in a crypt, he wouldn't bother going there. 

Possibly a change in the herbalism/alchemy systems would solve the problem?  The herbalism/alchemy systems, while fostering some RP and cooperation, also had some unintended consequences.  It could be time to rethink those and take a second look at to what was hoped for, what was expected, and what actually happened. 

Maybe selling some potions in places they were sold/available before would go towards easing the problems of low level dungeons being farmed?   

My char will take the pledge and stop using GS for herbs.  Since it bothers so many people and it really doesn't make much difference to my game, it's a fairly painless gesture, but a gesture nevertheless.  Other than one or two potions, , my char gave most of them away.   

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

i'll chime in on this i think...

there may also be certain factors to high lvls being in those various dungeons hope for example has a ic reason to be eagerly bashing away at the undead under the temple in the outskirts however as a curtisy to others i try to take along others with me where possible but thats not always possible for various reasons again

so i think as someone who's been around the block a few times with both high and low lvl characters in play atm i think i can safely add my two cents there

[Wids]

You know what might help?  An NPC merchant who sells the most basic and rudimentary herbs...viccar's cap, grave mold, woundwart, bleak cap and such.  Some players don't want to take the time to harvest their own herbs, so they go to a Vardo trader.  And if there's no Vardo trader available, they have no choice but to raid the outskirts crypt and the Southern Forest again.  If that Level 18 cleric is one bleak cap short of a Haste potion, you don't honestly think he's going to sit around and wait for a bleak cap to fall out of the sky and land in his lap, do you?

So set up an NPC herb merchant in some location that otherwise gets routinely ignored...say, the twisty forest passages between Vallaki and the Zeklos Keep, or in the Village of Barovia, or Krofburg.  The NPC merchant could sell the herbs at a mark-up which would still make the PC herb dealers attractive--call it the price of a fixed location, 24/7 service and overall convenience--and, if possible, have the prices for certain herbs rise dramatically when the herbs are out of season; unless the herbalist has a greenhouse, wolftail is going to be in limited supply in the dead of winter.

High-level characters usually have buckets of gold, anyway.  So they probably won't mind paying for herbs rather than sacking another lowbie dungeon to get what they need.

Thoughts?  

[Rex]

You know what might help?  An NPC merchant who sells the most basic and rudimentary herbs...viccar's cap, grave mold, woundwart, bleak cap and such.  Some players don't want to take the time to harvest their own herbs, so they go to a Vardo trader.  And if there's no Vardo trader available, they have no choice but to raid the outskirts crypt and the Southern Forest again.  If that Level 18 cleric is one bleak cap short of a Haste potion, you don't honestly think he's going to sit around and wait for a bleak cap to fall out of the sky and land in his lap, do you?

So set up an NPC herb merchant in some location that otherwise gets routinely ignored...say, the twisty forest passages between Vallaki and the Zeklos Keep, or in the Village of Barovia, or Krofburg.  The NPC merchant could sell the herbs at a mark-up which would still make the PC herb dealers attractive--call it the price of a fixed location, 24/7 service and overall convenience--and, if possible, have the prices for certain herbs rise dramatically when the herbs are out of season; unless the herbalist has a greenhouse, wolftail is going to be in limited supply in the dead of winter.

High-level characters usually have buckets of gold, anyway.  So they probably won't mind paying for herbs rather than sacking another lowbie dungeon to get what they need.

Thoughts?  

Yeah but that opens up the ball of wax on assigning Value.  That always gets messy.  I used to collect random stuff and sell the ingredients, but I don't cover ground as fast as the Hasted Hamster Ball of Doom.  When I tried stocking up Merchants, the Dedicated Herb Hogs, would sweep in and buy up every Herb (Value of 1).  *Shrugs*  So I don't think an NPC merchant is a good idea just based on the Numerous value issues one would have to assign to make it work, then you'd have the backlash through the player side of the economy and it would muck things up.

STILL.  It would be workable, if said Merchant was in an area only accessible to high levels.  Only problem with that is, to some people the gold means all.  Their gold is their "score" so to speak, and even though they have mountains of it, they don't want to spend it.

But it could still be a workable addition.

~Rex

[Bad_Bud]

You can't control the amount of potions people can create if you don't control the herb supply.  An NPC would be an unlimited supply...

[ThAnswr]

You can't control the amount of potions people can create if you don't control the herb supply.  An NPC would be an unlimited supply...

Why couldn't you set up the NPC for a set number of potions/herbs to be reset at the next reset?  I'm no computer genius, but it doesn't sound that complicated. 

[Rex]

You can't control the amount of potions people can create if you don't control the herb supply.  An NPC would be an unlimited supply...

Why couldn't you set up the NPC for a set number of potions/herbs to be reset at the next reset?  I'm no computer genius, but it doesn't sound that complicated. 

That's what he meant by Infinite Supply.  Every Reset, Poof more herbs.  Something that would work better, is a Dedicated merchant, who's supply is based only upon what's sold TO him, but that requires, assigning Value to a bunch of items that currently have a value of 1.

~Rex

[Bad_Bud]

I don't think merchants sell limited stocks of things.

If they did, the first person to get there would likely buy all of them anyway.

[Rex]

I don't think merchants sell limited stocks of things.

If they did, the first person to get there would likely buy all of them anyway.

Yeah that makes the entire set up Moot right there.

~Rex

[Wids]

I don't think merchants sell limited stocks of things.

Then you weren't there when Marilena was only selling one apple and one goat milk--per reset--at the Wandering Billy. 

If they did, the first person to get there would likely buy all of them anyway.

...unless the going rate for a woundwart was 1000 Gold...maybe.

But if the herb merchant bought woundwarts for, say 40 Gold apiece, he'd at least be assured of a constant resupply from all the folks who have zero Herbalism skill, non-stellar Constitution and/or Wisdom and a compulsive habit of picking every herb they come across.

[Rex]

I don't think merchants sell limited stocks of things.

Then you weren't there when Marilena was only selling one apple and one goat milk--per reset--at the Wandering Billy. 

If they did, the first person to get there would likely buy all of them anyway.

...unless the going rate for a woundwart was 1000 Gold...maybe.

But if the herb merchant bought woundwarts for, say 40 Gold apiece, he'd at least be assured of a constant resupply from all the folks who have zero Herbalism skill, non-stellar Constitution and/or Wisdom and a compulsive habit of picking every herb they come across.

Yeah but unfortunately..................Greed.........and Gold being a score.  IC ways to get around that though.

~Rex

[Grieyls]

Ok read through this thread and don't really have much to add that hasn't already been done so. However as far as the farming issue goes I can attest to the low level area's being sparse if at all of critters and herbs or whatever. I routinely log in when I get home from work each day and due to my time zone at GMT +10Hrs it's no real surprise that hardly anybody is on as well. Too often I see no more than five players on sometimes even less. With such a low player base you would think that spawns and what not would be at their highest or at the least fairly decent. This is not the case, too often the ML crypts are bare... The southern woods are clear... The beetle cave is devoid of Beetles. And so on and so forth for all the surrounding area's. Certainly it seems to me that the spawn rate can not cope with the frequency that these area's are being farmed. Certainly is the case this time of year. Now when the holiday period in the US and other countries is over I find that these areas are back to there full uberness again. Not to complain that about other countries holidays and what not, don't get me wrong. Just pointing out that when the playerbase is at it's most per day, you end up with zero to zilch spawns in lowbee area's.

Personally I feel that these area's need a bit of tweaking to increase the frequency of these respawns or something.. Not make them tougher but more frequent. This goes for critters and herbs of course.

[Emomina]

I am not so sure that is the case. I play in peak US times many days, and I have seen unusually high spawns in low to mid level dungeons. Earlier in this thread i said I had seen the thoul cave at high spawn, but yesterday it was even higher spawn. Instead of one witchmaster, there were like 7 of them. and instead of just a hobgoblin chieftain, there was a hobgoblin champion. It was tough, and the loot was great.  And I am really confused about the people saying the ML crypts have been over-farmed because I have faced a heucuva and skeletal champion/archer/warriors right inside the door leading down there. It does not escalate to heucuva on level 1 on the crypts without it going untouched for a while. 

[Bad_Bud]

He's logging on when nobody is on, and spawn rates are tied to the number of players online, so if everyone hits everything and logs off, it's not going to grow back during his play time.

[Emomina]

Ah, that makes sense. I wondered about that. Because just like him, I would assume that at those times when there isn't a lot of player activity would give the opportunity for the spawns to grow.