Author Topic: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion  (Read 17724 times)

Jana

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Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« on: June 15, 2009, 04:21:07 PM »
We're at the same problem we were at a while back... the solution then was to increase spawn rates to accominate for more players but now I think the problem is different. Respawn time generally speaking is fine, however its that people are all fighting over alchemical and herbal componants. The later caused a lot of grinding by itself but now with the new craft alchemy these places are getting hit harder than ever. The beetle cave which was almost always full when I first started playing is licked clean every time I check. The ML temple well knuckles are knuckles and herbs are herbs. At least with knuckles most characters I would think after they get about 50 hp they're fighting creatures that would do more damage while you stop to drink the healing potions than it heals. What I think may work... although it'd be a big change is to remove herbs from low lvl dungeons and alchemical componants as well at least until everyone gets over this 'rush' to master the new skill.

Fact of the matter is:
low level leather crafting requires you to kill deer and wolves
low level wood cutting requires you to find trees.
low level herbing requires you to pick up herbs growing around the outskirts
low level blacksmithing requires you to go to the copper quary and tin just inside the thoul caves.

My point is, for everything but alchemy you can still gather everything you need to craft without having to fight very hard or even completing a dungeon. With alchemy in the beetle caves you have to fight your way down to the bottom lair and leave -nothing- left. In the sewers looking for cubes, nothing is left. In the tunnels looking for oozes, nothing is left. I like the idea of alchemy I really do but would it be possible for characters to have to mine for sulfer rather than clean out the beetle caves over and over? Instead of oozes could acid flasks be used? The higher level stuff.... yeah keep it in the dungeons, high levels can fight over it.... but low levels want to be able to level so they feel like part of the group instead of just that person who dies all the time.
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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 04:49:31 PM »
Seconded. Also because this fact can create OOC issues between players at length while everyone is honestly trying to have fun at the same time.
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Minstrel

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 05:31:51 PM »
I second that low level Herbalism is damned hard to do. I can't even afford the damned potion bottles without selling the herbs that I need to put INTO the damn bottles. And it's hard enough getting the herbs to put in the damn bottles in the first place when the forests are picked clean because rich high level players are buying them for a ridiculous amount of money that no low level can compete with because they're spending all of their money on potion bottles!

Aaah!

I would pick another profession, but as a Druid, I have a choice between:

Woodworking/Carpentry: Cut down ridiculous amounts of trees!
Leatherworking/Tanning: Wildlife genocide!
Smithing/Metalworking: Break druidic vows!
Alchemy: Take lumps of material from fiendish abherrations and use them to make wierd things!

And... Herbalism, which makes the only sense out of them all.

As for the dungeons, I've also seen them mostly empty. I've gotten to the cave near to the Vistani once or twice when it hasn't been done, but the Beetles are usually empty, as are the sewers. And I don't actually know any other dungeons that I can do. Maybe the first level of the crypt, but that's similarly dire. And sometimes these invisible herb ninja-looters have already been and scoured all of my herbs anyway.

Whilst I've never seen a shortage of trees, I'm lucky if I can find a batch of herbs. Currently the only spot I know of being good to get them are the woods near the outskirts, and seeing very high level characters running around them while there are surely other places that are much more suited to those who can fight well is somewhat irritating, I agree.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 05:42:29 PM by Minstrel »

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 05:51:14 PM »
There's many way to get a hold of herbs or money to start off a craft. There's PCs ready to make money loan or even finance completely the operation. It dosn't always stop to *me me me i cant do everything by myself*, find others, band together.

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 07:36:51 PM »
I think they main point here was, the normal place for low levels to go to level up , are farmed extremely, meaning low levels get screwed. Which I personally, as a person who has been here a while, was finding it hard to level because high levels/mid levels were cleaning the places.


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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 07:41:53 PM »
I have to agree. Having alchemical or herbal components in low level dungeons does promote too much farming of low level dungeons. The fire level of the alhoon's is a better place for fire components than the beetle cave for example.

However, I have to say that starting a craft is usually better when you hit mid-level (8+). I say this because its easier to get ingedients and to pull in the income needed to sustain your mastering of the craft.

However, I must say that it is interesting to see Aliss come over here from the Other place. :lol:
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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 05:42:09 AM »
And just to defend the category. All high level herbalist have passed through the same problems, finding forests clean or not being able to buy herbs, and spending tons of money in bottles for failure.
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Kaspar

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 05:43:45 AM »
Nope. My character is a master herbalist, and I've found everything pretty easily. It's not all -that- bad. There's plenty of areas to farm for herbs, just have to widen your search a bit.

peluscious

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 06:01:56 AM »
but its being really hard to find xp for lowbies

Emomina

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 06:22:41 AM »
I wouldn't say its really hard, i mean, the fire beetles are rarely there, because of alchemy. But I've seen the oozes, the random southern forest cave, the thouls, i have seen these reach good spawn a lot. and the thoul cave had hobgoblin elite, and a hobgoblin witchmaster, which is as high as ive seen that spawn. and every sewer map except the slums always is crawling with dire rats and wererats. Still xp spots for low levels, especially when 2-3 pcs team up.
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Dreaderick

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 09:28:40 AM »
I'm not sure at what times it happens that low level dungeons get cleared, since there also is a post that mentions that the beetle population got so high that they spill out into the surrounding farmland
Likewise, I have recently seen the ML and Zeklos crypts at high spawn and the sewers were pretty much inaccesible to low levels for a while because they were swarming with were rats.

Perhaps there is someone in your timezone hitting the same places you hit?

However, alchemy is the only craft that depends fully on farming dungeons which gives people additional reasons to farm dungeons, keeping them empty. It has been suggested before (in this thread) to slightly alter Alchemy crafting by adding stuff like mercury and sulphur that make up the majority of the ingredients, and use creature derived ingredients only sparingly. That way you can keep crafters out of dungeons.


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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 09:36:27 AM »
it gets lose lose in these problems cause the high levels back off from ml and such then thier spawn get ungodly high anf th newbies get decimated and when we come to calean it up we get yelled at....

darkpriest

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 09:57:51 AM »
aye. I agree with the above... recently I've seen more than a few times that crypts were roaming with skeleton chieftains and slaughter wights of which the latter can be deadly even for a lone mid-high (12-15) level fighter.

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 11:16:40 AM »
There's many way to get a hold of herbs or money to start off a craft. There's PCs ready to make money loan or even finance completely the operation. It dosn't always stop to *me me me i cant do everything by myself*, find others, band together.

I should really be able to be trading potions that I've brewed for more herbs to continue my craft.

Sadly, since they're selling for what, fourty or more fang each, that's not working since people have much more use for 800 fang than they do for a potion of Keen Senses and a couple of Cure Light Wounds.

Herbs are no longer only picked by those interested in herbalism, they're picked by everyone. It's like finding a bag of 40 fang lying everywhere you go. And the fact that we have people happily claiming to be using Greater Sanctuary and Invisibility to ninja loot herbs just attests to this.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:30:31 AM by Minstrel »

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 12:15:52 PM »
There are other routes, my PC has a deal worked out with an herbalist, providing herbs very cheap, or even free in exchange for some potions(I buy the bottles and provide the herbs for them) and in return, they provide me with materials they come across that I use in my craft.  And as stated, find someone who needs potions, work out a deal to provide them some in exhange for coin or services... 



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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 01:56:04 PM »
We have dynamic populations. Which means the resources, be it gold or xp or crafting materials (save trees I suppose) are limited. We are all competing for those limited resources. The result is, those who have the most effective means of acquiring those resources, have the most success. Wether that means running around all day checking which dungeons are max, to being very usefull to parties who call you to join them, to doing good public relations, to having dms appreciate your rp and populate places with resources for you (be that rp opportunities, big bad monsters to slay or added treasures/rewards).

A friend of mine loved the herbalism and decided to do it full time. He made an appropriate character (power-herbalist you could call her) and I took it upon myself to get the herbs for him. Without trying really hard, I can get a full bag ie 35(?) herbs in an hour. If I try, using imp inviz and haste, two bags in an hour. He got level 20 herbalist in like... two weeks? Of course, I do consider myself a planned herbalist and actually have maps with herb locations and notes on what grows where and WHEN and how every so often :p And that was AFTER I drained all of a certain someone's bank account who thought to pay me a fortune to gather herbs for her :)

I suppose this is called powerfarming, wether you do it for loot, or xp, or crafting materials. It is bad, especially for those who come SECOND (cause you'll never hear the ones who are coming out of dungeon complain about it and, yes, you'll hear all sorts of things being thrown to you from people who come second*). This is in a sense, fine. The capitalistic sense. I don't understand why people find this so surprising. In RL, don't you have to be ...er... GOOD at what you do to succeed? They don't give free trips to amsterdam to the SECOND best salesman you know (let's not get into basketball player's salaries :p).

With the recent motivation of alchemy to go to such places, it is only expected that they will be overfarmed. Now, personally, I actually check these places out and approach them only when I see them at high/max spawn, to make it worth my while. Which, unless I camp right outside it, turn everyone hostile, post guards at every entrance and wait for it to grow, runs the risk of someone coming, being more than happy facing the mid spawn and thus ruining my day - hence the suggestion DON'T HIT THEM SO OFTEN falls totally out of context: if you don't, someone else will so you might as well. But then again, growing it and hitting it myself would ruin someone else's day. There is no win-win. There is always going to be someone (or someone's party, to divert people's thought from those evil soloers who steal the rp away) who came second.

To cut a long story short, it's not only alchemy but the way resources are handled on this server that cause such friction between players. Moving these resources to other places would hardly solve the issue, rather make it someone else's problem. I dread the day that platinum becomes a resource and we overfarm the demonoligsts so we can acquire it :)

I hope my venomous comments ( L O L, I hope no one takes this too seriously) will help those in control to grasp a better understanding of this.

P.S. Is it better to ninja herb loot a place or kill all the monsters, steal all the treasure, and gather all the herbs? Because, unlike treasure or monsters, herbs regrow quite faster... like MUCH faster...

P.S.2. Wanna talk about overfarmed? Try scrags...

* Being told: "You are ruining our rp" still makes me crack up everytime I remember it. The complains of multiple barovian campers "Oh, this is always low because such and such camp it, I never make it in time" comes a close second.
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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 08:15:25 PM »
Odd time to post a bunch of herb comments, because I was about to suggest that herb spawn rates actually be lowered.  I find the stuff far faster than I can brew them.

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 08:58:22 PM »
I honestly have a bit of a problem with ninja looting herbs and leaving spawns untouced sometimes. Many folks claim to do it to be nice OOC, so someone else can get the xp and loot. However, half those people seem to be acting contrary to their character. The biggest example I can think of is a cleric of a good aligned deity using GS to ninja herbs and passing by numerous evil creatures that I am sure their deity would want vanquished. By bypassing the critters, you are using the spell for your own benefit and not accomplishing what your god gave you special divine powers to do in the first place.
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Jana

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 09:46:05 PM »
I think this topic is starting to get derailed. The point or the idea is not "Oh I can't find resources" The problem lies in from a low level player point of view there is no where to go to gain xp. Yes we see beetles sometimes killing farmers. Thats not an overflow of beetles, it just means for whatever reason the 1-3 guard beetles are wandering too far away from the hole.

Moving componts from one spot to another WILL fix the problem. It gives low levels some places to get xp. Does this mean that midlevels or high levels might get shafted? Possibly BUT a mid or a high level isn't going to be as 'hungry' for xp as a low level who doesn't want to die every single time they see a werewolf.
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Dreaderick

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2009, 04:19:36 AM »
I think this topic is starting to get derailed. The point or the idea is not "Oh I can't find resources" The problem lies in from a low level player point of view there is no where to go to gain xp. Yes we see beetles sometimes killing farmers. Thats not an overflow of beetles, it just means for whatever reason the 1-3 guard beetles are wandering too far away from the hole.

That happens when the population is at max spawn. What timezone are you in?


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Jana

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 05:09:27 AM »
Uh I'm -8 GMT but I've been on from various times (I work part time) so from anywhere at 10 AM to about 5 AM... the 5 hour window I'll never be on because of sleep heh... Thats not to say I'm on all that time
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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 05:26:38 AM »
Moving componts from one spot to another WILL fix the problem. It gives low levels some places to get xp. Does this mean that midlevels or high levels might get shafted? Possibly BUT a mid or a high level isn't going to be as 'hungry' for xp as a low level who doesn't want to die every single time they see a werewolf.

But then, in turn, it means that low levels looking for resources will get sharted, too.

The problem lies in people getting resources from the easiest locations.

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 05:58:54 AM »
If it's only xp were talking about, then I think all people need to do is gather some information/plan appropriately. It's so easy to get to level 6-7 that you could do it in a day, if it weren't for the cap. And that's not taking into account the possibility of people helping you or the taking loans from factions.

The reason I made my post is that, with what I've been seeing this past year, I am under the impression that the developers WANT the resources to be limited and WANT us to be competing for them because if we handle it IC, it generates role play. Somebody correct me on this if that's not the case.
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darkpriest

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 06:07:06 AM »
It's harsh reality... there is suppoused to be a player driven economy and in each economy there is a limited number of resources for which different parties compete. The more scarce the reousrce is the more valuable it becomes.. if we had abundance of everything the idea of player driven economy gets shafted. It is good as it is...

Well and as for XP,, it comes as you RP... I assure you that you get much more XP in large groups and even chatting the whole night long than from going down to crypts, unless it's a really high spawn (same goes for every other area), but then for that you need a few mid levels to help.

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Re: Low Level Dungeons Are Farmed To Exintion
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 07:08:50 AM »
To some extend, I imagine that a part of the problem is that the alchemy craft is so new, and beginning crafters need the low level resources.

Another part of the problem could be imbalance between the amount of ingredients that's to be found in the low level dungeon (beetle cave) compared to higher level dungeons also providing reagents. Perhaps a quick fix for that could be to change it so that only the intact mandibles are useable for crafting.

Finally, there's not many places to find alchemy ingredients at current, putting additional pressure on the places that have them. That can be tweaked as well.

Concerning economy in general, we did want some level of competition, but mainly, we want to increase the advantage of working together, interacting with others, as well as all the roleplay it produce. Crafting also provide an alternative field of progress than the regular XP, thereby widening the more base-level experience. I acknowledge that the way alchemy crafting has been set up with ingredients obtained from creatures does make it very closely associated with dungeoning. Herbalism is oriented around making it hard to farm for one, but by letting everyone pick up the ingredients as they go, the total amount accumulated fits, and it becomes possible by trading. Moving alchemy toward that emphasis too would likely benefit it a lot, and I'll definitely be considering that as the system is further expanded.