Author Topic: Guns - Exotic? Meh.  (Read 6702 times)

ethinos

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 03:48:07 AM »
The guns are fun and worth burning a feat if it fits the character.
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Rex

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2009, 03:28:54 PM »
Deadliest Warrior, did Pirate Vs Knight, where you can see, Firearms of the time, vs Armor of the time.  Catch it on Spike.com .

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That episode does show though, the difficulties of Firearms of the time and the fact that they took serious training to use.  That Blunderbuss was the killer though.  Knight really wasn't all that impressed with the rest of the pirate weaponry.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2009, 05:07:56 PM »
I love the campy premise of the show.   It's compelling.   :mrgreen:
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2009, 05:17:46 PM »
I love the campy premise of the show.   It's compelling.   :mrgreen:

Yeah I was disappointed in our Green Berets in the Green Berets vs Spetznaz episode.  The Spetznaz, looked like they could go back to work any second, our guys, looked like they just got off the bar stool at the local BW3's.  On aftermath for that one, they brought in the Spartan Expert (because the experts from the episode wouldn't go face to face with the russian guy), also a former Green Beret, who actually looked like he could go back to work if he had to.  He made an interesting point though that the Spetznaz guy agreed with.  The Green Berets, are the Insurgent Instructors you drop behind enemy lines to teach native forces and advise in larger scope actions.  A more fair match up (and one I believe we would win), would have been Delta, or Seal vs Spetznaz.

That episode though was another great one showcasing Gun Skill, and Training, and how much of a difference training makes.  Now if Bioware had been smart and just let you equip Untrained weaponry, at the standard PnP deduction to AB, then the entire thread would be a moot point.  Joe Schmo could use a gun at Joe Schmo level, while Joe Trained can use a gun to take the heads of matchsticks on the run at 40 feet.  Unfortunently, well, bioware.  *shrug*

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Khuzadrepa

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2009, 05:43:03 PM »
I'd say yes, in regular DnD. But you've got all sorts of technology in Ravenloft that's not available in "normal" DnD. Heck, I never played Spelljammer. Anyone know what the blasters and various weapons were there?

Anyone, don't really care, since I prefer other methods of murdering people. But, I hope I'm wrong and the guns are worth blowing the feat. I imagine they'll be here more for novelty than anything else. Sad, but that's life. ;)
I've played some Spelljammer (though it was some years ago), and read a number of the sourcebooks, and there actually aren't any blasters if I recall rightly.  Magic was the 'blaster' of the campaign. :)
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2009, 06:28:03 PM »
Primative forms of firearms WOULD bounce off of plate armor (armorers would prove that their plate was bullet 'proof' by firing a shot into it) but by the advent of the musket, it just couldn't keep up. Make no mistake though Armor was definatly still important until the Napoleonic age.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2009, 07:13:01 PM »
I can't believe I missed this one:

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/yakuza-vs-mafia/31958

I want to see Mafia against Maori.  Now that's a matchup.  One side in suits and the other side in fig leaves.   :lol:
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2009, 07:40:25 PM »
I love the campy premise of the show.   It's compelling.   :mrgreen:

Yeah I was disappointed in our Green Berets in the Green Berets vs Spetznaz episode.  The Spetznaz, looked like they could go back to work any second, our guys, looked like they just got off the bar stool at the local BW3's.
Eh.  Matt Anderson looked like a slob, but Sgt. George Gomez looked good to go.  It's just too bad that Anderson got a ton more face time than Gomez did.

Then again, looks aren't everything; ask any ex-military folks out there.  I remember a former Navy SEAL who was pretty much a skinny midget.  I sure as hell didn't identify him as Special Forces on first glance, but this guy had served behind the lines in Desert Shield/Storm with two confirmed kills and God-knows-how-many recon hours, and he had the docs, photos and decorations to prove it...some of it, at least; the rest was classified and out of his hands.  As long as the ex-Spec Ops guy hasn't been reduced to a complete doughboy with emphysema, I wouldn't want to fight him.  Not even if Donald Trump offered to pay the hospital bills.   -_-;
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 07:44:38 PM by Wids »

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2009, 09:27:40 PM »
I love the campy premise of the show.   It's compelling.   :mrgreen:

Yeah I was disappointed in our Green Berets in the Green Berets vs Spetznaz episode.  The Spetznaz, looked like they could go back to work any second, our guys, looked like they just got off the bar stool at the local BW3's.
Eh.  Matt Anderson looked like a slob, but Sgt. George Gomez looked good to go.  It's just too bad that Anderson got a ton more face time than Gomez did.

Then again, looks aren't everything; ask any ex-military folks out there.  I remember a former Navy SEAL who was pretty much a skinny midget.  I sure as hell didn't identify him as Special Forces on first glance, but this guy had served behind the lines in Desert Shield/Storm with two confirmed kills and God-knows-how-many recon hours, and he had the docs, photos and decorations to prove it...some of it, at least; the rest was classified and out of his hands.  As long as the ex-Spec Ops guy hasn't been reduced to a complete doughboy with emphysema, I wouldn't want to fight him.  Not even if Donald Trump offered to pay the hospital bills.   -_-;

Yeah I think they would have been better off if they focused a bit more.  The Spetnaz were focused.  Our guys weren't really.  Plus like I said that's not really the appropriate match up there and even the other Green Beret expert (Also the Spartan Expert), and the main Spetznaz guy pointed out.

I own both of those handguns as well (Though my Makarov is an east german production model), and though I like the Magazine load of the Beretta, the Makarov, is by far the better Weapon.  Hell there's a reason why MI6 took the Beretta away from James Bond.  :D

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superman300038

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2009, 09:39:05 PM »
    I read somewhere about an 80 year old man who's house was being broken into.  He grabbed a handgun and moved to the frontdoor where the burglar was smashing through.  The older man gave a warning to leave one time, and the burglar laughed it off.  One shot was fired and it was straight into the burglar's head.

    The old man served with the Special Forces in Vietnam.  Heart gets you through all of that training, and once you've had training on that level.. its in you.  Skinny, Fat, Old, Young... Its that old size of the fight in the dog saying, except this dog was trained by the best. 


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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2009, 09:56:07 PM »
    I read somewhere about an 80 year old man who's house was being broken into.  He grabbed a handgun and moved to the frontdoor where the burglar was smashing through.  The older man gave a warning to leave one time, and the burglar laughed it off.  One shot was fired and it was straight into the burglar's head.

    The old man served with the Special Forces in Vietnam.  Heart gets you through all of that training, and once you've had training on that level.. its in you.  Skinny, Fat, Old, Young... Its that old size of the fight in the dog saying, except this dog was trained by the best. 



Wonder if it was worth getting killed over.  :?

Rex

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2009, 10:07:24 PM »
Break into my house sometime and I'll demonstrate.  :D

Got a T-shirt that says that actually, well, the saying in the previous post.  It's not the size of the Dog in the Fight, it's the size of the the Fight in the Dog that matters.
I do a lot of Vet work as well so I can attest that training hold like a bear trap when the times right.  Like I said, I just don't think Our Guys, focused seriously in that episode.

May be different next season.  That happened in the precursor to this show that Animal Planet used to run.  Called all those right to.  :D

Another thing, I do a Lot of Black Powder for more then a bit of a Hobby, and yes, while it took less training to be competitively and lethally good with the weaponry, it still took Training.

That means a feat, and firearms definitely fit the bill of exotic, otherwise everyone around you now would have them, not just a handful of trained folks.

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Falcifer

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2009, 07:33:43 AM »
Guns are rightfully exotic.

Imagine someone handing you some kind of star-wars esque blaster pistol powered by some odd glowing crystals of different colours. Would you have any clue how to operate it effectively without special specific training?

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2009, 10:05:18 AM »
if it has a trigger and a place it fires from yet


trigger  points ahead *if trained aim*   and fire

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2009, 11:52:19 AM »
The problem is that the NWN game system does not allow players to use weapons that they aren't proficient in, rather than just give them a penalty.  Other than that, I think that firearms are appropriately categorized as exotic.
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2009, 12:47:11 PM »
Firearms are exotic weapons in PnP as well. Furthermore, while aiming and shooting a firearm is relatively straightforward, it nevertheless requires training to shoot accurately regarding compensating for recoil. Also, reloading and maintenance of the weapon requires specialized training. The character has to know how to measure the proper amounts of gunpowder and have some knowledge of the lock mechanism and proper cleaning of the firearm to maintain its effectiveness.

Quote from: Ravenloft Players Handbook, p71
Firearms in Ravenloft: The Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat gains a character proficiency with all gunpowder weapons. Otherwise, a -4 penalty is assessed on all attack rolls. Firearms can be made into masterwork weapons or even enchanted like any other ranged weapons.
Most firearms in Ravenloft use wheel-lock firing mechanisms: pulling the trigger releases a spring-wound wheel. This spins against a flint, which sprays sparks into the priming pan, igniting the gunpowder. Wheel-lock weapons won't fire if they become wet. Masterwork firearms tend to use the safer and more sophisticated snap-lock mechanism: pulling the trigger snaps a flint-headed hammer against a metal plate, sending sparks into a covered priming pan. Snap-lock weapons are generally weatherproof, though complete drenching still fouls the powder.

Quote from: Ravenloft Van Richten's Arsenal Volume 1, p11
Reloading a pistol or musket requires either the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat or at least 1 rank in the Craft (gunsmithing) skill, and is a standard action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2009, 03:31:35 PM »
I'd say yes, in regular DnD. But you've got all sorts of technology in Ravenloft that's not available in "normal" DnD. Heck, I never played Spelljammer. Anyone know what the blasters and various weapons were there?
Spelljammer didn't have high-tech weapons. It was regular D&D "in space." The only guns they had were black powder weapons like in Ravenloft (wheellocks, flintlocks, etc.).

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2009, 10:36:31 AM »
Ok.. I actully shoot Black powder compitetion with american civil war weapons.  and round ball was used as well in the early part of the war. So...

for one.. patch round ball of various calibers..  of the time say 1835 down. Had NO sights at all. at least 90% of them. save maybe a front bead.  normally... a man could get off 3 maybe 4 shots. before the barrel became so fouled that the ball wouldnt fit down the barrel any more.  and to boot often soilders NEVER used wading (patches) to help take up the extra space in the barrel for the first two shots.  also normally a smooth bore weapon wasnt good for much more than 50 yards. Thats with a patch.. without you might hit the guy standing next to the guy you shot at.

There where your Pensylvania rifles (kentuy long rifles) in the around 1760 ish that had rifling..  much more accurate. but fragile compared to the more beefy  brown bess type standard issue military rifles. 

However.. going back to say the wheel locks.... VERY VERY ewxpensive to make  back in the 1400-1500 and had a very good repuation for ignition. and safty, but they broke... they broke. for good.  Match locks. where at best 20 to 30 yard weapons. poor acuracy. and was turned into a pike after the first shot.

Keep them a exotic weapon.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2009, 10:53:31 AM »
Ok.. I actully shoot Black powder compitetion with american civil war weapons.  and round ball was used as well in the early part of the war. So...

for one.. patch round ball of various calibers..  of the time say 1835 down. Had NO sights at all. at least 90% of them. save maybe a front bead.  normally... a man could get off 3 maybe 4 shots. before the barrel became so fouled that the ball wouldnt fit down the barrel any more.  and to boot often soilders NEVER used wading (patches) to help take up the extra space in the barrel for the first two shots.  also normally a smooth bore weapon wasnt good for much more than 50 yards. Thats with a patch.. without you might hit the guy standing next to the guy you shot at.

There where your Pensylvania rifles (kentuy long rifles) in the around 1760 ish that had rifling..  much more accurate. but fragile compared to the more beefy  brown bess type standard issue military rifles. 

However.. going back to say the wheel locks.... VERY VERY ewxpensive to make  back in the 1400-1500 and had a very good repuation for ignition. and safty, but they broke... they broke. for good.  Match locks. where at best 20 to 30 yard weapons. poor acuracy. and was turned into a pike after the first shot.

Keep them a exotic weapon.

I second my fellow Black Powder competitor.  I don't think the Powers that Be would move them from Exotic anyway, since that's where they belong due to "weapon type". 

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2009, 11:52:04 AM »
also if you LOOK at the weapons proficiency in the rule book there listed as exotic :)

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2009, 12:15:35 PM »
also if you LOOK at the weapons proficiency in the rule book there listed as exotic :)

Don't say Rulebook to loud you'll wake up the Click and Go Dragon.  That is one of the earlier points we tried to make as well.  Not sure why folks think Gun Skills are so easy.  Just watch a gun fight between two untrained individuals.  :D

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2009, 01:05:51 PM »
click and go dragon?

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2009, 05:14:28 PM »
i realized one silly thing that...guns are pretty weak, they make no damage at all, since i can make more damage with my longbow.


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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2009, 05:22:03 PM »
i realized one silly thing that...guns are pretty weak, they make no damage at all, since i can make more damage with my longbow.

I've killed a Moose, and a Grizzly, with one Arrow.  I've never been able to do that, with one shot (You always need a follow up upon retrieval),  from the .460wm MkV DGR, and that's firing one of the most powerful cartridges in the world, if not arguably, the most powerful.

Arrows kill things dead.  Guns allow people to kill things dead with something smaller and more quickly trainable then Archery.  CROSSBOWS, are so freaking lethal, most states will not allow you to hunt anythng other then Varmit with them.

What made Guns so nasty in the Spelljammer days, and in the days of some of the newer settings like Pathfinder and what not, is the Exploding Crit.  Keep rolling if you keep nailing that 20.  Combine that with the PnP fort save, Guns pretty nasty again.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2009, 06:50:06 PM »
Yeah, but to think how the guns slowish reloading doesnt make them very good in combat- gosh whatever, i wont use a gun anway, carry on!


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