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Author Topic: Guns - Exotic? Meh.  (Read 6705 times)

kenpen

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Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« on: June 05, 2009, 07:19:55 PM »
Shouldn't they be simple? Half the reason guns became so popular, and remain so, was that they were easy to use. The other half was their ability to basically bypass armor by blowing huge holes in it. :-P

Seems to be a real limiting shame that almost no one is going to be able to use them, and then - when they do - they're still going to get a face full of explosion half the time. There's not much to a gun. Put powder in. Put ball in. Pack. Point. Pull trigger. Certainly easier than a crossbow. I realize it's exotic just to keep people from using them without buying a feat, but that doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 07:23:25 PM »
Gun is a pretty simple weapon, i mean like the crossbow who was invented because they required very little training to use unlike a bow. I would have to lean toward simple weapon.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 08:10:05 PM »
At the time, they weren't so simple and are pretty exotic since it's the most advanced technology you'll find for war at the time.


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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 09:10:29 PM »
Guns are Exotic weapons in DnD.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 09:19:18 PM »
Simplicity of use was definitely the main reason guns became the weapon of choice, but this was mostly in the context of massed armies.  You could teach someone to load a gun in an afternoon, put them in a rank with a few hundred others, and have them launch wave after wave of lead at the enemy for a pretty decent effect.  Thing is, between misfires and weapon inaccuracy, it took quite a few technological improvements before guns were really effective in a one-on-one situation without a lot of practice.  These aren't Glocks or Mausers, these are (probably) relatively unreliable unrifled matchlocks and wheellocks -- flintlocks didn't become popular until the late 1600s, and rifling wasn't common until the 1800s.  (And well-machined sights weren't developed till around the same time.)  So to use them accurately would definitely take a lot of practice, and I think justifies the Exotic feat.  (I'd rather see a Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) instead, but Exotic does the trick too.)

ethinos

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 09:23:08 PM »
Shooting a gun may be easy, but i think the reloading and theory behind guns is what makes it exotic to someone from the medieval times.
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 09:34:39 PM »
Guns were the sole reason Samuri as a culture nearly became extinct. -Anyone- could fire a pistol with no formal training. Fact is a person can't fire a gun, or even hold it unless they have the Exotic feat due to game mechanics.

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ethinos

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 09:37:06 PM »
You can hold a gun. But who can load one correctly? I seriously doubt many here can load a black powder gun correctly. This was a technology alien to those in that time.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:47:52 PM by ethinos »
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 09:39:38 PM »
Not necessarily.  Just because they didn't grow up with the technology being as ubiquitous as it is for us, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to adapt to its use.  People are pretty clever at adapting to new technology, and always have been, even if we'd normally think of them as not being as sophisticated as we are now.  Medieval Europeans had coal, petroleum, and rooms full of floating sawdust, so the concept of flammables and explosives wouldn't necessarily be that exotic to them.

I'm no gun nut, but I've had the chance to fire a few muzzleloaders. In my experience loading and firing one is ludicrously easy (though obviously not as much as breechloaders), but I had a lot harder time shooting accurately than with a modern rifle design.  (And the muzzleloaders in question were rifled with accurate sights, not the cruder muskets they're probably selling in Dementlieu...)

ETA:  Loading a gun isn't exactly an intuitive process, but once you learn the basic steps, doing them quickly is just a matter of practice.  It'll never be as fast as a breechloader with a modern action or a trained archer loosing arrows, but it's also easier to teach.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:42:53 PM by KoopaFanatic »

ethinos

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 09:46:40 PM »
In my mind, a simple weapon is one that anyone can pick up and use without instruction. Martial weapons require a bit of training to use effectively. Exotics are specialized weapons that require unique training to use effectively. Training that isn't commonly found. Therefore, I agree that guns are exotic weapons.

And we aren't talking about adapting here, how readily someone will learn how to use a gun without instruction and tutoring. You used black powder guns after receiving instruction. Good for you. You are now trained in Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Muzzleloaders).
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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2009, 10:07:27 PM »
Oh.. They have those in another domain now. Ideas, ideas- *Cough* Right, staying on-topic. Keep guns as exotic. Agreed with all the points raised by Ethinos.


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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 10:10:04 PM »
Just another benefit of playing the anti-specialist specialist fighter.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2009, 03:40:30 AM »
Totally agree. Exotic all the way, on many levels. Now can I have my Lawgiver holy shot gun please ?

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2009, 03:55:08 AM »
I agree with Ethinos. 

Quote
In my mind, a simple weapon is one that anyone can pick up and use without instruction. Martial weapons require a bit of training to use effectively. Exotics are specialized weapons that require unique training to use effectively. Training that isn't commonly found. Therefore, I agree that guns are exotic weapons.

But I do wish you could use an exotic weapon without the feat.. use it at terrible disadvantage, but still use it.

    Also, Samuri did use firearms.  Their downfall came when the Japanese governement sought to reform.  Taking power away from feudal states and dissolution of samuri status was the begining of the end for them.

Kendric98

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2009, 05:32:40 AM »
I agree with Ethinos. 

Quote
In my mind, a simple weapon is one that anyone can pick up and use without instruction. Martial weapons require a bit of training to use effectively. Exotics are specialized weapons that require unique training to use effectively. Training that isn't commonly found. Therefore, I agree that guns are exotic weapons.

But I do wish you could use an exotic weapon without the feat.. use it at terrible disadvantage, but still use it.

    Also, Samuri did use firearms.  Their downfall came when the Japanese governement sought to reform.  Taking power away from feudal states and dissolution of samuri status was the begining of the end for them.
Many killed themselves in protest. Oh and i think it should remain exotic.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 05:44:11 AM »
Many Samurai considered it a dishonorable weapon as well, and it wasn't really accepted until Nobunaga Oda used them to such great effect to completely anihillate the Takeda Calvary with his famous double row strategy - a tactic that would later be used by Napoleon and all modern armies, playing soldiers in two or three rows, having the front row fire, the backrow reload

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 06:15:17 AM »
I totally agree with having them be exotic weapons, it is canon for that to be the case.  8)

Also, I am amazed that I am not alone in my knowledge of and interest in Japanese history. Cool. 
(oh and just as Kung Fu Orc spelled it, the correct spelling is SAMURAI :)

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2009, 04:08:01 PM »
We're nerds, buddy, odds are most of us have watched Seven Samurai and played at least one Koei videogame (Samurai Warriors ftw)

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 02:41:47 AM »
Shouldn't they be simple? Half the reason guns became so popular, and remain so, was that they were easy to use. The other half was their ability to basically bypass armor by blowing huge holes in it. :-P

Seems to be a real limiting shame that almost no one is going to be able to use them, and then - when they do - they're still going to get a face full of explosion half the time. There's not much to a gun. Put powder in. Put ball in. Pack. Point. Pull trigger. Certainly easier than a crossbow. I realize it's exotic just to keep people from using them without buying a feat, but that doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

Early firearms could be stopped by full-plate, if at range. And the main firearm during this 'time period,' would most likely be a primitive matchlock arquebus, a weapon with considerable loading time, poor accuracy, and unreliability -effective only in massed volleys. For these reasons this weapon would absolutely take very specific training to use, and is not widespread outside of the 'advanced' domains, thus it is exotic. Also, to my knowledge, at the moment there are only pistols available due to animation problems, but we're working on resolving that issue :)

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Quote from: TreMiki99
Off topic but, my wife is a decendent of Saigo Takamori, for those of you that enjoy reading of samurai, he was one of the most famous. Check him out
Wasn't he played by Tom Cruise in "The Last Samurai?"  :lol: :roll: Good movie, but stupid decision, it's as stupid as if they made another movie about the American Revolution and had George Washington played by a Japanese man.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 02:46:10 AM by Vokan »

Kung Fu Orc

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2009, 02:52:39 AM »
Actually the Tom Cruise character in Last Samurai WAS a Gaijin... but the dude was French, not American.

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Rex

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2009, 11:29:04 PM »
Deadliest Warrior, did Pirate Vs Knight, where you can see, Firearms of the time, vs Armor of the time.  Catch it on Spike.com .

Now, as a Trained firearm person, at bot the military and competitive levels, I can tell you this.  Any Idiot, can kill someone with a gun.  Any idiot, can also kill you with a stick, or a rock.  But untrained idiots, Kill themselves with guns far more often then they do the other person they want to kill.

This is ESPECIALLY true in black power (we had an incident during the last black powder season here, with rookie retards).  So while yes, you needed LESS innate ability to use a gun, you still need the training, to be a competent user of it as a weapon.

So it costs a feat.  And exotic makes sense as the feat for it as well because that's where it's "niche" is.  Can't fault the issue of having to burn a feat for it, just because Bioware didn't understand how weapon proficiencies work in DnD.  Even in PnP it's Exotic unless coming from a culture where it's standardized, in which case it becomes Martial.  And just because it's Martial didn't make it easy to learn, unless you were one of the classes that got ALL martial weapons as a class feature (fighter etc).  Otherwise, everyone else.  One Feat One Weapon.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2009, 11:54:42 PM »
Deadliest Warrior, did Pirate Vs Knight, where you can see, Firearms of the time, vs Armor of the time.  Catch it on Spike.com .

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2009, 12:13:51 AM »
Who won the pirate verus knight?

Vokan

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 03:27:19 AM »
I'll give you a hint - the one with 200 more years of technological development.

Anyway, yeah, basically the bottom line is that Guns=Exotic in PnP, and they are uncommon weapons.

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Re: Guns - Exotic? Meh.
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 03:45:30 AM »
I'd say yes, in regular DnD. But you've got all sorts of technology in Ravenloft that's not available in "normal" DnD. Heck, I never played Spelljammer. Anyone know what the blasters and various weapons were there?

Anyone, don't really care, since I prefer other methods of murdering people. But, I hope I'm wrong and the guns are worth blowing the feat. I imagine they'll be here more for novelty than anything else. Sad, but that's life. ;)