Death attack - Totally unbalanced.

[Ric]

Process of Death Attack:

1.  Target must be flat-footed (A target who is casting is in the same state).  If the target is in combat, the paralyze can never happen.

2.  Death attack can only happen on the first strike/flurry.

3.  The assassin must pass the Initiative Check first or a paralyze check will not occur.

4.  Death attack's duration is random.

5.  The save throw is 10 + int + assassin levels.  In other words, a 'decent' assassin needs to be around level 7+ to be able to start effecitvely taking out people beyond level 2.  And the save isn't even that epic in comparison to what a mage with hold person/monster/dominate monster can do.  My wizard has Dominate Monster with a DC of 35, and that is a 19 minute paralyze.  My assassin's DC isn't remotely near that, and he's maxed out.  Also, a mage paralyze doesn't even need an intiative check, and it's a will save, which mollests anything that doesn't have spellcraft.

Reducing the duration of death attack solves nothing.  My assassin, who does 40-70+ damage depending on crits, will kill a character, even if death attack only lasts for 10 seconds.  Also, the IC-meaning behind the length of one's paralyze makes perfect sense and should not be reduced.  If the nervous system has just been anihilated by a knife or arrow in the spine, then that's pretty much it.  A character shouldn't be able to do anything in that instance.

~~~

If the NPC who DA'd your character did not have True Seeing or See Invis, then that should warrant a bug-report.  Otherwise, if they can see you, then it's fair game.  As it's been stated, Freedom of Movement potions are your friend.

[Chrisman888]

Ric nailed it, if anything it should be increased!

~ Chris

[Bad_Bud]

Anything with a DC of 35 is stupid. 

[shadymerchant]

This is getting off topic, but if you're going to compare death attack to spells, it should be noted that you have a very limited amount of spells, and there are numerous counters to them. The only thing comparable between dominate monster and death attack is the fact that they have DC's.

[Ric]

And what's your point?  Death attack is countered by Freedom of Movement and Dominate Monster is countered by Protection from Alignment or Mind Blank.

There is a limited amount of spells?  There's only one Death Attack, and seven spells with different DC's and checks:

Hold Person (Mind)
Hold Monster (Mind)
Dominate Person (Mind)
Dominate Monster (Mind)
Flesh to Stone (Fortitude)
Bigby's Forceful Hand (Reflex now, used to be STR)
Bigby's Grasping Hand (SR-Based)

A spell-caster has more potential at being a better paralyzer than an Assassin.  The only difference is that the assassin only has one paralyze and access to stealth, unless you're playing a multiclassed mage with rogue, ranger, or SD levels, AND the fact that a mage has seven choices of paralyze and can choose them based on saying "The target has a crappy will-save, I'll use one of the four will-based paralyzers; this target has a low fortitude, I'll use flesh to stone to paralyze him."

I'm not asking to nerf a mage, since they've already had their spells nerfed enough, but the point of my comparison was to state that an assassin is weak as hell in measurement of power until they're high level, and even then, compared to a caster's paralyze spells, is not that epic.

[Vokan]

I don't see the point in changing death attack. It's the defining factor of the Assassin PRC, and a solid non-caster counter to casters, of which there are very few.

[failed.bard]

  This isn't a class discussion.

  The issue, is that death attack is easier to pull off in NWN than in PnP, and the paralyze lasts a random time up 1 turn/level, as opposed to the round/level it's supposed to.
  In the old thread EO (I think) said duration is hard-coded, so that part isn't really worth discussing, since it's not likely it could be changed regardless.
  The issue is that being invisible should prevent them from being able to death attack, since they can't see you to target, and it doesn't.

  Heretic tested with me, mainly to try and figure out why Maria didn't get a save, but it confirmed they could death attack paralyze the moment they were in whisper range, by both melee and missile attacks.
  This isn't a bug, it's based on the way the game engine handles sneak attacks, and is due to lazy programming from Bioware.
  In order to fix this, the concealment giving spells would have to make the user immune to sneak attacks, which they're supposed to do anyways.
  So, is that worth doing?

[Fungal Artillery]

If NPC death attacks don't give a save & do not work properly.
A) Attempt to fix it.
B) Remove Death attack from their sheets and Give them the equal amount of sneak attack instead.


Giving invisible creatures sneak immunity isn't worth it. Mainly because it causes another bigger balance issue. Mages are already very powerful as are bards and clerics with trickery domain. Many hostile NPCs rely on sneak attacks for damage..  so this change would make anyone with Imp. invisibility a instant palemaster against them.

And as another point..  It would remove the fear casters have for rogues and assassins. And rogue types are pretty much the only thing they do fear.
It's sort of a paper/rock/scissors game. Can't go and give the paper a mithril coating.




...and assassins are kinda meant to be feared and seen nightmares about. Murder is their area of expertise. They are meant to be good at it.

[failed.bard]

  We couldn't replicate what caused the lack of save and initiative roll.  Testing later had it make both, so it may have been due to the number of different fights going on simultaneously if that small area it just missed a step.  If it happens again to someone, as opposed to a one time freak occorunce, it might be wrth trying to figure out exactly what caused it.

  For PvM, there are a few creatures that have concealment that aren't undead, feral yowlers, dark creepers/stalkers, some of the things in the coal caves, and ghostly visage protected greater wolfweres being the ones I can thing of off-hand.  For PvM, from a rogue players perspective, it would shrink an already limited sneak attackable creatures list.
  It would remove the majority of the risk from the coal caves and forest fane as well.

  It's actually not the way I would prefer it to go, but based on my understanding of the game mechanics, I don't think the death attack itself can be changed to check to see if the target is visible to the attacker, so it seemed like the only way that part could be fixed.

[Ric]

Concealment giving immunity to sneak attacks would be just plain absurd, not to mention rendering rogues nearly completely useless.  What you're saying is becuase they have an I-win ability against you, despite the fact that you can easily counter this with a freedom potion, we should reduce the already limited amount of dungeons where a rogue is useful to the party for the sake of making two easily beaten dungeons easier.

If there's a solution to the problem, then why not go with the solution?  Bring a cleric or get a potion?

[Chrisman888]

Also concealment doesn't mean you cannot see the person, it just means they look concealed.. and are harder to hit. So if you would get immunity to sneak while running around with 50% concealment.. well that would be just plain silly.

But..

Immunity to sneak while invisible could be interesting, but how would that work with someone with see invisibility? Should the person who is invisible still be able to have the advantage to be immune to sneak, even though I can see you perfectly clearly? I can't see it working.


~ Chris

[Anarcoplayba]

And what's your point?  Death attack is countered by Freedom of Movement and Dominate Monster is countered by Protection from Alignment or Mind Blank.

There is a limited amount of spells?  There's only one Death Attack, and seven spells with different DC's and checks:

Hold Person (Mind)
Hold Monster (Mind)
Dominate Person (Mind)
Dominate Monster (Mind)
Flesh to Stone (Fortitude)
Bigby's Forceful Hand (Reflex now, used to be STR)
Bigby's Grasping Hand (SR-Based)

A spell-caster has more potential at being a better paralyzer than an Assassin.  The only difference is that the assassin only has one paralyze and access to stealth, unless you're playing a multiclassed mage with rogue, ranger, or SD levels, AND the fact that a mage has seven choices of paralyze and can choose them based on saying "The target has a crappy will-save, I'll use one of the four will-based paralyzers; this target has a low fortitude, I'll use flesh to stone to paralyze him."

I'm not asking to nerf a mage, since they've already had their spells nerfed enough, but the point of my comparison was to state that an assassin is weak as hell in measurement of power until they're high level, and even then, compared to a caster's paralyze spells, is not that epic.

Yes... it and the caster also have a crappier hit dice, AB, Skill points (excet, maybe, mages), reflex and fortitude saves, the spell slots are gone until you rest and... basically... just that.

Seconding what was said: this is not a thread of class x class. AND: spells ae supposed to be ass kicking. One thing is you sttabing (dunno) someone's kidney and tis person be rendered paralyzed because of the pain. Othe is you bending one's will by sheer willpower.

People love comparing spells with classes. This people should try to experience what is playing with a caster, a fighter and a supporter (rogue, etc). Eache one has it's weaknesses. Try buff to fight a group of vampires just to see a vampire priest dispell you and (surprise!) you are now encumbered and can't even run to safety.

[k_moustakas]

Silly or not, the books DO say sneak attacking concealed people is a no. We should make concealment grant immunity to sneak attack, and then NURF (nurf, not nerf) ghostly visage and all the spells that grant concealment!

Or not

[Chrisman888]

People just seemed to think Assassins are all powerful gods from hearing from the grape vine that said Assassin just beat said uber guy down.  While we can be scary and have deadly moments, we have many many many weaknesses that counter... we are just good at hiding them

I won't lie, when I made Marrok I did push him to the max almost and he was indeed a powerbuild or PVP build or whatever you call someone who's build is deadly, but he had alot of weaknesses I just kepted them secret and made his image as "scary" as he could be add that to his natural ego and poof.


Now I also heard that this topic is not about class vs class, or it's not a up for discussion. It is in the gameplay balance forum and saying "Death attack is unbalanced", which means it's up for discussion for everyone to say there points. If this thread is suppose to just be based of Failed Bard getting Death attacked without a saving throw, ect ect.. then it should be moved to the bug reports forum.

~ Chris

[Bad_Bud]

First, the person who started this thread is no longer arguing his point, so I'm not sure why this topic is still so active, aaand...

Silly or not, the books DO say sneak attacking concealed people is a no. We should make concealment grant immunity to sneak attack, and then NURF (nurf, not nerf) ghostly visage and all the spells that grant concealment!

Or not

Spells that grant concealment in NWN are much different than in PnP, where the concealment rules exist.  Such as, partial concealment only provides a 20% miss chance, as well as improved invisibility not giving concealment.

From what I could see, there were two concealment spells.  Displacement, which is 1 round/level, and Blur, which is 1 min/level and pierced by true seeing.

So to argue it should apply in NWN would be a wacky imbalance.

[k_moustakas]

Er, if it wasn't blatantly obivous by the    I was just being silly... I did say two pages back that making concealment counter sneak attack is a bad idea.

[Rex]

And what's your point?  Death attack is countered by Freedom of Movement and Dominate Monster is countered by Protection from Alignment or Mind Blank.

There is a limited amount of spells?  There's only one Death Attack, and seven spells with different DC's and checks:

Hold Person (Mind)
Hold Monster (Mind)
Dominate Person (Mind)
Dominate Monster (Mind)
Flesh to Stone (Fortitude)
Bigby's Forceful Hand (Reflex now, used to be STR)
Bigby's Grasping Hand (SR-Based)

A spell-caster has more potential at being a better paralyzer than an Assassin.  The only difference is that the assassin only has one paralyze and access to stealth, unless you're playing a multiclassed mage with rogue, ranger, or SD levels, AND the fact that a mage has seven choices of paralyze and can choose them based on saying "The target has a crappy will-save, I'll use one of the four will-based paralyzers; this target has a low fortitude, I'll use flesh to stone to paralyze him."

I'm not asking to nerf a mage, since they've already had their spells nerfed enough, but the point of my comparison was to state that an assassin is weak as hell in measurement of power until they're high level, and even then, compared to a caster's paralyze spells, is not that epic.

Yes... it and the caster also have a crappier hit dice, AB, Skill points (excet, maybe, mages), reflex and fortitude saves, the spell slots are gone until you rest and... basically... just that.

Seconding what was said: this is not a thread of class x class. AND: spells ae supposed to be ass kicking. One thing is you sttabing (dunno) someone's kidney and tis person be rendered paralyzed because of the pain. Othe is you bending one's will by sheer willpower.

People love comparing spells with classes. This people should try to experience what is playing with a caster, a fighter and a supporter (rogue, etc). Eache one has it's weaknesses. Try buff to fight a group of vampires just to see a vampire priest dispell you and (surprise!) you are now encumbered and can't even run to safety.

Two quotes for the price of One.  It lets me address this issue since any time a Caster is mentioned, the Pro Caster people immeadiatly go on the defensive.  Here is a DISTINCT, advantage, that the Caster have, over any Sneak with DA.

The Sneaks, if they are hunting you, Put you on hostile when they start Hunting.

The Caster, PREP themselves before any Hostiling Occurs (Every Buff and Protection spell in the book), Quickslot the needed Barrage of Spells (Multiple Hold Persons etc etc etc), Set up Position (Protected by layers of Buffs invisibilities etc etc etc), Wait for the right moment, again while still prepared beyond anything a sneak can do, And NOT having to already have said target on Hostile, Then, Click Hostile, Spam Paralyzing Spells, when one finally Sticks, Follw up with Mega Spell Buffed Bullrush.  All in the spam of less then 20 seconds of hostile time.  EVEN, if you hear this in action, you as the target can't do squat without being accused of meta gaming, even though you know it's coming.

At least the sneaks, have to sneak and hunt.  It may take Hours, it may not, It may take days, it may never come, but you at least are Hostiled for that time, and then all the shadows and folks in hoods and dark corners are actually scary.  Leave the DA alone, it's one of the few things a sneak can aspire to.

~Rex

[mayvind]

And what's your point?  Death attack is countered by Freedom of Movement and Dominate Monster is countered by Protection from Alignment or Mind Blank.

There is a limited amount of spells?  There's only one Death Attack, and seven spells with different DC's and checks:

Hold Person (Mind)
Hold Monster (Mind)
Dominate Person (Mind)
Dominate Monster (Mind)
Flesh to Stone (Fortitude)
Bigby's Forceful Hand (Reflex now, used to be STR)
Bigby's Grasping Hand (SR-Based)

A spell-caster has more potential at being a better paralyzer than an Assassin.  The only difference is that the assassin only has one paralyze and access to stealth, unless you're playing a multiclassed mage with rogue, ranger, or SD levels, AND the fact that a mage has seven choices of paralyze and can choose them based on saying "The target has a crappy will-save, I'll use one of the four will-based paralyzers; this target has a low fortitude, I'll use flesh to stone to paralyze him."

I'm not asking to nerf a mage, since they've already had their spells nerfed enough, but the point of my comparison was to state that an assassin is weak as hell in measurement of power until they're high level, and even then, compared to a caster's paralyze spells, is not that epic.

Yes... it and the caster also have a crappier hit dice, AB, Skill points (excet, maybe, mages), reflex and fortitude saves, the spell slots are gone until you rest and... basically... just that.

Seconding what was said: this is not a thread of class x class. AND: spells ae supposed to be ass kicking. One thing is you sttabing (dunno) someone's kidney and tis person be rendered paralyzed because of the pain. Othe is you bending one's will by sheer willpower.

People love comparing spells with classes. This people should try to experience what is playing with a caster, a fighter and a supporter (rogue, etc). Eache one has it's weaknesses. Try buff to fight a group of vampires just to see a vampire priest dispell you and (surprise!) you are now encumbered and can't even run to safety.

Two quotes for the price of One.  It lets me address this issue since any time a Caster is mentioned, the Pro Caster people immeadiatly go on the defensive.  Here is a DISTINCT, advantage, that the Caster have, over any Sneak with DA.

The Sneaks, if they are hunting you, Put you on hostile when they start Hunting.

The Caster, PREP themselves before any Hostiling Occurs (Every Buff and Protection spell in the book), Quickslot the needed Barrage of Spells (Multiple Hold Persons etc etc etc), Set up Position (Protected by layers of Buffs invisibilities etc etc etc), Wait for the right moment, again while still prepared beyond anything a sneak can do, And NOT having to already have said target on Hostile, Then, Click Hostile, Spam Paralyzing Spells, when one finally Sticks, Follw up with Mega Spell Buffed Bullrush.  All in the spam of less then 20 seconds of hostile time.  EVEN, if you hear this in action, you as the target can't do squat without being accused of meta gaming, even though you know it's coming.

At least the sneaks, have to sneak and hunt.  It may take Hours, it may not, It may take days, it may never come, but you at least are Hostiled for that time, and then all the shadows and folks in hoods and dark corners are actually scary.  Leave the DA alone, it's one of the few things a sneak can aspire to.

~Rex

Amen case close.

[Heretic]

Dead horse.

Lets lock this.