Death attack - Totally unbalanced.

[ThAnswr]

Interesting observation:  How do you study someone if you can't see them?   

[Nefensis]

Gee.. see invisible maybe?

[k_moustakas]

I think it's rather obvious that we're not talking about the situation that you CAN see your opponent via true sight or see invisible or whatsnot

[mayvind]

Iam confuse are we talking about class assasin player, or NPC cheating AI that see and follow forever when you brush pass them invisible? Or we talking about it's duration ?

Fact to point out:

Duration is hard coded, so nuthing to do about it i guess (i hate the duration as well my Sharian got killed by it). And it is balance for Rogue vs Mage vs Fighter vs Rogue. Even though i hate it.

[ThAnswr]

Gee.. see invisible maybe?

Then you can see them and therefore study them to your heart's content.   

[failed.bard]

Interestingly enough, Jerv pointed out to me in the PHb, for PnP rules, sneak attacks don't work against concealment of any sort either, so they most definately shouldn't work against opponents you can't see at all.

Also from the d20 SRD, link here:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

[eyeofpestilence]

Personally I love the area and the Assassins backed by the sneak attacking black guards. Reason, we have wizards and clerics complaining about how hard it is! That in it's self shows the area is feared/a challenge.

If you think the area is hard being a wizard with Acid Sheath, Stone Skin (10 DR), PfE (stops their spamming of Doom), Imp Invis (50% conceal FTW), Mage Armor, Shield, Bulls, Endurance, Cats, Haste....all on self of course, try playing a rogue or fighter in this area. With a Rogue, sure you can spot them, but they still get sneak attacked since they group stomp you and only one won't get the sneak attack. Without the wizard buffs your down in a round unless you can manage a 40+ ac. Even then the monsters uncannily roll 20's 8 times in a row and can still bring you down. That there is Assassin's in that area which DA for a fort save of less then 20, just shows the need to group up.

DA is a one hit win. Much like Finger Of Death a wizard spell (among others), except with FoD there is not a to hit roll and with DA you need to actually finish the kill by striking the thing more. Is DA unbalanced? In comparison to Cleric and Wizard buffs, hardly. People hate sneaks since they can't be seen. Due to complaints in the past about how powerful sneaks were, the dev team has implemented changes which I feel has unbalanced the environment against sneaks now so that few bother playing them. You can't dungeon with a sneak anymore since everything has godly listen and spot skills. You wear a homing beacon and if you open that lock or remove that trap, the DC to open or remove is subtracted from you Hide and MS skill against every monster in the area. You get boot stomped.

As for Forest Fane area, hats of to the Dev team for making an area that is well rounded. Just a few tweaks to make treasure match and will be awesome!

[kenpen]

I do find the fact they can death attack you when you're invisible to be totally lame. The ability to paralyze someone with an attack and cripple them comes from being able to hit very specific and damaging spots, something that's impossible to do against someone you can't see. Even the blind-fighting penalty doesn't really compensate for that. You might still be able to damage an opponent, but stick a knife between their vertebrae? No.

Then we'd have the issue that you can't paralyze someone with any form of concealment?

Yeah. That's the way it's supposed to work. Priests have FoM to counter Death Attack; Wizards have their Imp Invises and Displacements. If you can't adequately see the right place to stick the knife into the body, their attack isn't any different than anyone else sticking a knife into a body. They can still hit the target, if they get past the concealment, but hitting any place with such specificity should be well nigh impossible. Doesn't mean the attack still won't do a boatload of damage, as a sneak+deathattack usually does, but it won't leave the person completely crippled.

I went through the area w/ FoM on, and - of course - was never paralyzed. But their sneak+death attacks still tore me a new hole. Paralyze is their "I Win" button, and does have several methods on countering it in PnP. If you're prepared, you should be able to stop it. Technically, someone wearing some bulky, concealing clothing that distorts the bodies shape should be able to stop it too. *shrug*

[Kung Fu Orc]

Death attack won't function if you don't take damage. use one of the stoneskins.

[Nefensis]

Death attack won't function if you don't take damage. use one of the stoneskins.

Im not sure about that, dmg dosnt matter as much as hitting the right spot. The fort save will still be triggered, we'll have to try it.

[mayvind]

Death attack won't function if you don't take damage. use one of the stoneskins.

Im not sure about that, dmg dosnt matter as much as hitting the right spot. The fort save will still be triggered, we'll have to try it.

LoL stone skin only stop 10 damage, greater one stop 20 and the rest goes through, death attack follow by sneak attack so the person doing lots of damage beyond 10 or 20 damage, if you only score a 1 hp damage the death attack take effect if the spell absorb all the damage then death attack will not work. that how it work i think. And it make sense if you cant penetrate his skin how can you even death attack the person?

One need a premonition to stop a death attack. and a bit of fort and luck. Or all mages out there that fear death attack... come on Yves looking to rebuild undead kingdom sent yours application !!

[EO]

One need a premonition to stop a death attack. and a bit of fort and luck. Or all mages out there that fear death attack... come on Yves looking to rebuild undead kingdom sent yours application !!

Death Attack is one of the rare things that can kill a mage, so I think it's balanced. And even then, as mentionned, Premo stops it fairly easily.

[ThAnswr]

Doesn't Death Ward fit in as a defense? 

[EO]

No. Death Ward protects against death magic, that's the point of Death Ward. A Death Attack is just a physical attack, nothing surnatural about it. You just damage the nerves or something and paraylize the person. It's anatomy.

[ThAnswr]

So is it a spell or feat?  I know nothing about the Assassin class. 

Nevermind, I went back to page one in this thread.   

[shadymerchant]

One need a premonition to stop a death attack. and a bit of fort and luck. Or all mages out there that fear death attack... come on Yves looking to rebuild undead kingdom sent yours application !!

Death Attack is one of the rare things that can kill a mage, so I think it's balanced. And even then, as mentionned, Premo stops it fairly easily.

This is a bit of hyberbole. First, we have to specify that we mean living mages, since undead are immune. Second, we'd have to assume this is a mage that knows how to battle. We also have to assume that the person attempting to kill them knows what they are doing. Whether that's a barb, a ranger, a rogue, or even bard/cleric/druid. With that being said, all of those classes have tools at their disposal to get the job done. DA just amounts the ultimate attack, and the easiest way to go about it.

[failed.bard]

  Bear in mind I've also been doing the forest fane with a 10th level rogue/bard, and she slaughters the grand swordmasters in hand to hand combat.  When kenny slapped the extra buff on her she was AC 41 going through there, and only the assassins and their high AC were any challenge.
  I'm not saying the area is unbalanced because the creatures have sneak/death attack.  I'm saying death attack is unbalanced, because of broken game mechanics and lazy programming by bioware.

  This is not a discussion about the forest fane.  This is about death attack.

[Helaman]

Umpton was once fencing with an assassin... wont say name to avoid spoilers.

Got hit with a death attack... and while I did NOT stopwatch the duration it was at least 2 REAL minutes... it got to the point where the GM and I were in ooc tells discussing just how long it was gonna take for him to recover... it was ridiculous.

Leave the system as it is the easiest way and sort of balanced... ie you have to blow levels in rogue etc to get there instead of other areas (like magic or classes with good AB) but I think a fairer way would be 1 round per level D4 rounds.

Then again it may be hardwired into code and unchangable.

[engelfire]

i would even take permanent paralysation effect when slapped with death attack and surviving.. i mean, you cut someones nerves or damage their spine or whatever so they cant move. only restorable by priests.

you are not suppose to grow new nerves and tendons in few minutes and resume your joggin spree like nothing ever happened..

if mage has premo on, but no elemental protection. Assassin comes and hits the mage with sword that has alchemist fire on it, it should prompt roll for DA and splatter the mage around yard. 

other than funky mechanics, DA is fine ability. If DA would be dropped then you could aswell drop assassin class becouse it becomes pretty useless without that. Its so funny, if something kills someone, its instantly unbalanced and must be removed or nerfed

[Rex]

I don't mind it.  I always got a good laugh out of getting hit with it, then having the assassin go into Wiff Mode and not be able to land a hit after that.  It's the sheer amount of assassins, and to a lesser extent assassins, and ones with piles and piles of friends, that irks me.

~Rex

[failed.bard]

Its so funny, if something kills someone, its instantly unbalanced and must be removed

Maria was hit by a death attack, while invisible, and wasn't given a save against it.  The no save part was a weird bug, but being able to death attack something you can't see, including using missile weapons to do it, is unbalanced.  Considering you shouldn't even be able to sneak attack them under those circumstances, it need to be reviewed.

[Chrisman888]

 Death attack is random time as well. Sometimes you DA people/things and the DA will last no more then 20 seconds.. sometimes it lasts 2 mins it's random.

Also you have to win the intuitive (Er whatever the name is) for the DA to succeed. So there is alot of things balancing on a DC of 25 (And that lvl 10 Assassin 16 INT +2 Int buff.)

So for someone who is lvl 16... having that ability is not bad, considering most lvl 10 mages can kill you by pointing at you. Also you probably will say "You play an Assassin that's why your defending them!" and your correct. You have to experience the class first, there are many weaknesses to Assassins we aren't Iron men. Hell Marrok got killed by someone I could of beat down in three seconds in foot to foot combat.


~ Chris

[failed.bard]

[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:34] Darkling Swordmaster casting Doom
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:35] Darkling Backstabber attacks Summoned Helmed Horror : *miss* : (16 + 5 = 21)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:36] Summoned Helmed Horror attempts Knockdown on Darkling Backstabber : *hit* : (11 + 17 = 28)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:36] Summoned Helmed Horror attempts Knockdown on Darkling Backstabber : *hit* : (12 + 12 = 24)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:36] Summoned Helmed Horror damages Darkling Backstabber: 22 (17 Physical 5 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:36] Summoned Helmed Horror killed Darkling Backstabber
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:36] Experience gained.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:36] Darkling Swordmaster casts Doom
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (4 + 14 = 18)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *critical hit* : (19 + 9 = 28 : Threat Roll: 20 + 9 = 29)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Maria Nefzen : Will Save vs. Mind Spells : *success* : (5 + 13 = 18 vs. DC: 12)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Black Agnes turns undead.
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 19 (19 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 80 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 8 (8 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 90 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:37] Darkling Backstabber attacks Summoned Helmed Horror : *hit* : (12 + 17 = 29)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:38] Darkling Backstabber damages Summoned Helmed Horror: 4 (4 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:38] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (11 + 4 = 15)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:38] Off Hand : Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (5 + 14 = 19)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:38] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (11 + 14 = 25)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:38] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (18 + 9 = 27 : Threat Roll: 2 + 9 = 11)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 10 (10 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 60 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 9 (9 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 70 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 14 (14 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 40 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 4 (4 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 50 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Darkling Backstabber attacks Summoned Helmed Horror : *miss* : (6 + 8 = 14)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:39] Attack Of Opportunity : Summoned Helmed Horror attacks Darkling Backstabber : *miss* : (4 + 19 = 23)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Power Attack : Summoned Helmed Horror attempts Knockdown on Darkling Backstabber : *critical hit* : (20 + 10 = 30 : Threat Roll: 17 + 10 = 27)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (16 + 14 = 30)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Off Hand : Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *critical hit* : (19 + 9 = 28 : Threat Roll: 10 + 9 = 19)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (13 + 9 = 22)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *miss* : (6 + 4 = 10)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Off Hand : Expertise : Sneak Attack + Death Attack : Darkling Swordmaster attacks Maria Nefzen : *hit* : (14 + 14 = 28)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Power Attack : Summoned Helmed Horror attacks Darkling Backstabber : *hit* : (18 + 9 = 27 : Threat Roll: 12 + 9 = 21)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Summoned Helmed Horror damages Darkling Backstabber: 55 (45 Physical 10 Fire)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 5 (5 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 20 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 9 (9 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 30 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 19 (19 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Maria Nefzen : Damage Reduction absorbs 10 damage : 10 points remaining
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Lost 3041GP
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Darkling Swordmaster damages Maria Nefzen: 12 (12 Physical)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat Mar 28 22:40:41] Darkling Swordmaster killed Maria Nefzen

That was the entirety of the fight, including a couple ovelapping swings from the helmed horror.  No initiative roll made for it.  No saving throw given against it.  Tell me how that's hard to pull off?

[Chrisman888]

Are you telling me, you were DAed in the middle of combat without a saving throw or.. iinitiative roll? As in PARALYZED?

If so then that is indeed a major bug, if your saying "It showed up Sneak attack + Death attack" then that's normal.. all it does is 1d6 damage the exact same as a sneak attack, and no it doesn't make them stronger.

A level 3 rogue/6 Assassin has the exact same sneak damage as a lvl 9 Rogue... ((5d6)).

~ Chris

[failed.bard]

  Yes, she was paralyzed from the initial attack.  The helmed horror Maria summoned was in combat, but she wasn't.   Four seconds isn't very long, but she would have only had to get to the other side of her summons for them to switch targets, so if she hadn't been paralyzed she might not have been killed.

  I have no problems with sneak attacks affecting invisible/concealed targets, mainly because I imagine their affects and handling are hard-coded.  This wuld mean the spells would all have to be re-written to make the caster immune to sneak-attacks, which would probably make them immune to critical hits as well, which it shouldn't.  Plus, normal invisibility is easily countered be see invis and true seeing, but the sneak immunity would remain if it was added that way.
  It's the paralyzing effects of the death attack that shouldn't be applied against creatures/characters that the attacker can't see.