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Author Topic: What is acceptable to do to players ?  (Read 14107 times)

Smitehammer

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2009, 06:05:34 PM »
Rapes make for good backstories (half-orcs and the like) but I don't care to see them used in dynamic roleplay on a game like this.
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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2009, 06:16:01 PM »
Anyway.. if ever a problem arose between two players (hey, or more) they can always talk about it together, with the council, with a DM. No one will ever force that kind of thing on a player so that's a moot point

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2009, 08:16:22 PM »
As long as Dms use them in stories I'd say torture, rape and other very adult subject matter going to exist, and even though the rules state clearly that a player should speak up at any time to a player or a DM oocly if what is happening ic bothers the player (not the character) that's a good way to go. What perhaps isn't realized is while most players ask oocly beforehand in tells if the other player is ok with what is happening, I've yet to have a Dm do the same.  I personally find it easier as a player to tell another player I'm not comfortable with something at any point, it is a lot harder I would think for some to speak up in the middle of an event oocly, with multiple players involved and say you aren't comfortable with certain aspects such as rape to a DM.  This is hardly to imply it's been a problem, it's not for me, but I think there's need on both sides for that level of respect we expect players to have for each other from the DMs as well and a consideration that less is indeed more and allows all involved to picture what that means in more detail for themselves and the character, and that's surely going to vary a lot more than explicit details, which I'd say is not necessarily a bad thing and seems more true to the more victorian concept of gothic horror (Dracula, Frankenstein and such).


I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2009, 09:09:06 PM »
Regardless of the fact that it exists in cannon, doesn't mean that cannon should be used as an excuse to allow Pervy computer sex weirdos an outlet for their ambitions (there's like chat rooms and stuff for that sort of deviant behavior).  Site rules are clear to.  Fade to Black.  Less is More.

Besides when you go with cannon you have to go, Red Vardo:  Group of Merchants and item retrievers/finders (As opposed to cabal of assassins, with mega powered paladin best friends and 20th level backup), Fighters might actually have a magic weapon beyond a +1 ab,Vampires sleep during the daylight hours taking years to develop their salient abilities, and Wizards use spell components.

All kidding aside, There are some things you can do and some you can't and most are spelled out in the rules already.  Anything else, you grab a dm and ask them, or you try and do something involving common sense that doesn't completely wreck the other PC for some sort of playability.  While rape is horrific, there is pretty much no way it would be missed, if it were minimalized.  It really doesn't show up in any descriptive form in horror Literature either(That venue following the Less is More, or Inference angles.

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I have so many pet peeves....  :P

Rapes make for good backstories (half-orcs and the like) but I don't care to see them used in dynamic roleplay on a game like this.
Calibans too:teach:

Rape and similar violations also see much use as causes for vengeance-type storylines, too.  What sweeter form of revenge than to catch up with the defiler who did that to you and forcibly remove the offending weapon, or boil him in oil or feed him to wolves or whatnot?  Vengeance is honey sweet, even if the cause for that vengeance is vinegar bitter.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 09:13:34 PM by Wids »

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2009, 01:59:32 AM »
Rape exists in real life. Rape exists in literature. Do you enjoy listening to news or reading them in everyday life? Do you enjoy reading them? In Italy lately we are having a serious issue about it, and everytime I hear about some news about it I feel sick at heart, I feel sick to be a man. We can't compare our taste to that of Shakespearean time nor of Wilde's audience (and Wilde's goal was mainly that to shock, keeping on the tradition of "romance vs novel" of the Victorian Age, a society who "needed" to be shocked because by now living in the falsehood of a surface moralism). We can discuss about both these threads separately but what I wonder is, if this is a game in which people should have fun even in a horror setting, if this is a game with a serious check about some things which can or can't be done due to age of the players, why we should be so willing to accept this kind of rp?

During my gaming here I've heard stories/tales of rapes very often, too often, maybe once a week, involving several different characters and players. I've been protagonist only on one of these episodes as a "rapist" and it was all according to rules and stuff, and I even did that to a char who had already suffered from the same thing. I didn't have any fun at rping that, I won't do that again nevertheless. But I've risked to be raped more than once. I've cut heads of rapists. I play female chars and I'm a straight male, but this doesn't mean I'm insensitive on the topic. The main problem is, rape sometimes seem to be a "fil rouge" of the server because it happens that very often and links itself to many plots and subplots (vengeance, slavery, stuff like this) that even if you don't like it as a fact in real life or something in the game, you always end being involved at least as one who knows it has happened.

This is not a social server. There can be romance, there can be sex, there can be rape, all following the fade to black rule. But nevertheless there are themes which can annoy people even if "talked about" and not only when emoted and "played". And if one feels sick at listening about rapes, which happen not to him/her, and it happens every now and then (rather often, I repeat), what kind of respect there can be for those players anyway?

I simply think that rape is nothing added to horror but rather to a sense of morbid. And even if you follow the "fade to black" rule it's always there as a constant in this server. It's not a blame, but a statement. It's not just by players but also by DMs, and this in my opinion can even be worse since it seems a sort of "legalization" of a status quo.

EDIT: Plus the fact it happens so often makes it even less "scary" and more morbid, seeming almost as if every villain's goal is to rape people.

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« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 02:14:11 AM by +Ciaran+ »
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DarkWyvern

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 02:10:45 AM »
I've been hesitant to say anything, as the main topic of this thread makes me uncomfortable. However as a DM I will say this. I've never, nor will I ever force rape scenes on PCs and I won't as a player participate either. I will gladly run horror scenes with flesh being stripped from bones or other types of torture but rape is not, nor ever will be option with me because I am a victim in real life of such and it disgusts me in every way.

That's my two cents.

Telkar

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2009, 02:25:11 AM »
This is not a social server. There can be romance, there can be sex, there can be rape, all following the fade to black rule. But nevertheless there are themes which can annoy people even if "talked about" and not only when emoted and "played". And if one feels sick at listening about rapes, which happen not to him/her, and it happens every now and then (rather often, I repeat), what kind of respect there can be for those players anyway?

I'm one of those people...and hearing it mentioned IC makes me want to just make an excuse to leave.

Eledaar

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 02:55:47 AM »
I have no interest ever seeing or hearing about any rape-related RP, ever.
Personally, I think if two consenting adults want to engage in that sort of thing, they could do it elsewhere, but thats just my opinion.

I see no problem with rape being part of a backstory or plot, but no player should even be put into that situation where they have to say, "I don't feel comfortable with this."
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Ric

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2009, 04:26:45 AM »
What's wrong with having to say "I don't feel comfortable with this" to begin with?  People are always put in uncomfortable situations in game, rape is one of many of those situations.  I won't list examples, as anyone can use their imagination on that and think of plenty of other things that can be uncomfortable to imagine for IC scenarios.

It's an evil setting, it's not a good setting.  The end result of most characters is either badly physically, mentally, or both.  Very rarely can a character ever pass a year without evolution of the setting unless they are simply refusing to let dynamics happen, which if they are, then that defeats the point of the module.

We've already established this guys:  Rape is bad in its context.  No one advocates rape on a positive scale, so enough drama / making things sound much more larger in proportion than it really is.  The people (like me) who are stating the points are simply saying that violent behavior happens in the module, and has been happening in the module since the beginning (my very own character, Zecht, being traumatically abused during my first month of playing here during winter 2006 through a scenario that beats rape in the 'omg wtf' department in my opinion).

The big message is:  You, the player, is obligated to say whether things that happen bother you OOCly or not.  Some of us are fine with graphic RP, some of us aren't.  Making it sound like the people who accept the RP are a bunch of freaky deviants?  Insulting, more than constructive.

And for the last time, since several people keep making this sound like the explicit RP happens.  It doesn't, and it never will, unless you, the person doing explicit sexual RP, wants to get a ban from the server.  Graphic RP will happen
Spoiler: show
(Blood gushing out from a smashed skull, people feasting on newly born infants, body parts being arranged on a living person, etc.)
  You get to make the call whether or not it bothers you, and if it does, then the other party will have to make a decision on how to work things out.

As it's been said several times by people who have been in these scenarios, it really does make things a whole lot easier when both parties are achieving agreements in tells over the situation when it grows OOCly sour.

Telkar

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2009, 04:35:18 AM »
I have no interest ever seeing or hearing about any rape-related RP, ever.
Personally, I think if two consenting adults want to engage in that sort of thing, they could do it elsewhere, but thats just my opinion.

I agree...

You know...reading this thread really lessens my desire to even log in game, but I read it because I think it needs to be discussed. The whole subject makes me depressed and I start to think "in what sort of place am I actually RPing in?". I really love RPing here, but knowing how frequently rape is RPed here repels me to no end, along with the knowledge that maybe some friends of my character are rapists or rape victims...

fulkren

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 04:46:47 AM »
to each their own in my opinion.

if something bothers me on that level i wont consent to it, and i walk away. i log on to have fun and to RP. not put myself in uncomfortable situations. to me that defeats the purpose of the definition of a game. as any game is designed to have fun...

at least that's what i log on for.

anyway thats my take on the subject.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 04:54:22 AM by Varmathus »

Telkar

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 07:43:14 AM »
But yeah, I guess it must come down to mutual agreement between players involved, preferably asking beforehand in the severe cases. Replacing the morbid feeling with an eye for an eye vengence motivator works for me I think.  :twisted:

DM Nocturne

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2009, 04:03:35 PM »
I'm okay to roleplay most evil-related actions. Although going into detail with rape is something I want to do at all. Even roleplaying the aftermath of such action isn't much fun.

This is likely due to you being normal, in that you take your characters personally, empathizing with them and finding it difficult to detract.

The golden idea is to confirm in tells that all parties are happy with the current course of RP, provided it is within the rules.

I think we all agree that rape is off-limits. This is not a social server.

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2009, 04:30:49 PM »
It's an evil setting, it's not a good setting.  The end result of most characters is either badly physically, mentally, or both.  Very rarely can a character ever pass a year without evolution of the setting unless they are simply refusing to let dynamics happen, which if they are, then that defeats the point of the module.

I have to respectfully disagree with you as to why a character remains good.  Or for matter, turns evil.  Players seek out what they want.  It isn't the dynamics that changes chars.  It's the conscious decisions made by the player that direct the char.  There is no such thing as "letting the dynamics happen".  The player decides what they want to do. 

As for players who seem to be on the edge but never really heavily involved in the dramatics, that can also be a conscious choice.  Some don't want to be bothered.  Some don't have the time.  And some have decided they'll be the touchstones of the setting who will always be there year after year no matter what goes on around them.  They're the beacons for the newcomers and the constants for the veterans.    Again, choice not dynamics. 

The point of Ravenloft isn't to turn evil, but it is morality tale in which good triumphs evil if it chooses to do so.  The lesson of Ravenloft is that decisions have consquences both good and evil.  Evil does not automatically win out no matter how long it is a character's misfortune to be stuck in Ravenloft. 

Quote
You know...reading this thread really lessens my desire to even log in game, but I read it because I think it needs to be discussed. The whole subject makes me depressed and I start to think "in what sort of place am I actually RPing in?". I really love RPing here, but knowing how frequently rape is RPed here repels me to no end, along with the knowledge that maybe some friends of my character are rapists or rape victims...

It would be a shame if this discussion drove someone away.  The fact is, only a small percentage of the player base is actively involved in this thread. 

As to how often rape is RP'd, it depends on the crowd you hang with.  We had an ML member raped as punishment by the guard and that same guard was sentenced by his superior to clean the ML church and would no longer be a guard.  Good won out. 

So in the nearly 2 years I've been playing here, my char has been involved in rape, indirectly, once. 

You can choose to be involved in torture, murder, maiming, rape, stealing, lying, etc. and all the rest of the deadly sins.  Or not.  That is what should be taken away from this thread. 

« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:03:10 PM by ThAnswr »
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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2009, 04:53:02 PM »
You misunderstood my point.  I never said that good characters have to turn evil or fall from grace.  What I said is the setting is evil, meaning it does things to the characters, whether good or bad.

Quote
The end result of most characters is either badly physically, mentally, or both.

There are those who can triumph, as you stated, but there is also the obstacles that occur within the journey through Ravenloft, itself.  It's a tragic, miserable place to live in at the end of the day.  Most characters I make are almost mislead to believe they're in paradise, only to find over the months that it's actually a really awful place to be in, since there's so much misery happening.

To immerse yourself in your character and imagine living in such a pitiful place where your friends are being corrupted or killed, and the majority society does not want anything to do with you is where all the fun, deep RP comes from.  It's a choice to be involved in that sort of RP, yes, but in my opinion, it's the best part of the RP. 

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2009, 05:00:41 PM »
I agree with Ric here and hope people would read his posts well and with some thought before answering.

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2009, 05:03:41 PM »
Quote
You misunderstood my point.  I never said that good characters have to turn evil or fall from grace.  What I said is the setting is evil, meaning it does things to the characters, whether good or bad.

Then we agree completely.  Of course the setting is going to change you.  People change in RL over the years.  Chars have to make choices constantly and live with the consequences.  That's Ravenloft. 

Quote
To immerse yourself in your character and imagine living in such a pitiful place where your friends are being corrupted or killed, and the majority society does not want anything to do with you is where all the fun, deep RP comes from.  It's a choice to be involved in that sort of RP, yes, but in my opinion, it's the best part of the RP.

Then you get into the char's race or background.  An elf doesn't think like a human. An elf would just as soon outlive an enemy as kill them outright.  And to be elf means to live many different lives.  That is the price of longetivity.  Friends come along, friends die and new friends are made.  That's the elf's life. 

And sometimes the motivation is to live long enough to find their way out of that pitiful place and you don't achieve that goal by fighting with the guards or robbing your neighbor.   :mrgreen:


 

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failed.bard

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2009, 10:24:55 PM »
  There are certain things that, regardless of player consent, should only be done with a DM present, and in the context of an ongoing story.  Rape, and any sadistic form of torture, are /automatic/ DPs, as out-lined by BlueBomber in a thread on torture.  (I can't do links from my phone, but I can post the link when I get home if anyone wants)
  Committing these acts leave the character permanently tainted, and almost always outwardly deformed.  Doing them without a DM present is akin to an exploit, where you're deliberately avoiding the negative consequences to your own character, while inflicting them on another.
  For the same reason, I don't agree with canon NPCs performing these acts, as it's an outright ignoring of the setting, and disrespectful to the playerbase, to have them act in ways that would get a PC perma-killed, or DP cursed, without any possibility of repercussions for them.

Eledaar

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2009, 01:37:20 AM »
  There are certain things that, regardless of player consent, should only be done with a DM present, and in the context of an ongoing story.  Rape, and any sadistic form of torture, are /automatic/ DPs, as out-lined by BlueBomber in a thread on torture.  (I can't do links from my phone, but I can post the link when I get home if anyone wants)
  Committing these acts leave the character permanently tainted, and almost always outwardly deformed.  Doing them without a DM present is akin to an exploit, where you're deliberately avoiding the negative consequences to your own character, while inflicting them on another.
  For the same reason, I don't agree with canon NPCs performing these acts, as it's an outright ignoring of the setting, and disrespectful to the playerbase, to have them act in ways that would get a PC perma-killed, or DP cursed, without any possibility of repercussions for them.

That's interesting, and good to know.  Never heard it before.
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failed.bard

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2009, 02:27:08 AM »
I was thinking about it after, and in the case of Alin, having him be a darklord of a small domain bordering (inside?) Barovia, where only the worst of criminals get sent serves both purposes.  It would give a glimpse of the degeneration a DP causes (to those unfortunate enough to end up in his "care") without removing a major element of the setting.
  It could even lead to some interesting morality roleplay, for those charged with ecorting prisoners to him, especially for the ezrites, were they to be asked (told) to take someone there though the mists.

boompowclash

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2009, 03:11:46 AM »
I was thinking about this, and I have a new title (no offense meant-)

What is acceptable to do With Players?


Nefensis

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2009, 03:45:09 AM »
Au contraire, i was always a huge fan of Alin. As one of his favorite victim *cough* the NPC gave me the creeps in his "untouchable" state.  Nothing could touch him, nothing could get to him and nothing he did seemed to have any consequences when it came to him. The Alin i remember was another kind of monster, a very real one brought to life by Talek. In the current Ravenloft-lite that we're playing in, players are afraid of consequences happening to their precious characters and that's a pity.  I still stand behind my point that nothing should be done that makes the player feel uneasy or not have a good experience on the server but one never stopped the other before.

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failed.bard

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2009, 05:26:36 AM »
Alin isn't untouchable, though, there are just never going to be any consequences attached to him in the current set up.  If one, of his former victims were to kill him on one of his rare visits to the outskirts, burn his body, and scatter his ashes in the lake, he'd simply be back again, most likely without even an explanation why.
  Remove him from the general part of the module, put him in his own little domain where every fabric of it could then be used to break a person down psychologically, and his continued untouchable existence is justified by his position as a darklord.
  If your character just went through a session with him, you're placed bloodied and weary, but unbroken back in your cell, and wake in the night because the floor itself is sucking at your wounds, you're not going to stay hopeful for long.

  I just see it as a way of maintaining consistency in the module, while in the case of Alin, offering up the possibility of different layers of torment for him to inflict.

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2009, 07:26:07 AM »
  For the same reason, I don't agree with canon NPCs performing these acts, as it's an outright ignoring of the setting, and disrespectful to the playerbase, to have them act in ways that would get a PC perma-killed, or DP cursed, without any possibility of repercussions for them.

Actually, Powers Checks are a tool DM's can use on PC's (from the Ravenloft 3E Campaign Setting). DM's don't have to use Powers Checks constantly and in the case of NPC's, don't need to follow the rules if it doesn't serve the greater narrative. Most Darklords have never gone down the path of corruption in six steps and many evil villains in Ravenloft canon have not received any Powers Checks despite all they've done.

failed.bard

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Re: What is acceptable to do to players ?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2009, 07:32:24 AM »
 Now that I'm home, here's the link for the thread on torture.  Anything listed as an auto DP on that list really shouldn't be done without a DM present.

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=10050.0

Obviously, lycanthropes and ghouls feeding isn't torture, despite the grievious bodily harm and mental scarring it could cause, so they can keep merrily munching away on the playerbase in no DM times, since secretly that's what we all want them to be doing anyways.


And...   Since EO posted in between, in response to his post:
  I'm aware powers checks aren't handled constantly.  The problem is they're not handled consistently either.  Some players get DP checks for everything they do, some people are free to commit whatever crimes they want consequence free.  Consistency in rulings is essential in a persistant world, and we're not getting enough of it.