What is acceptable to do to players ?

[Aran]

Seems the recent focus on horror have let to different things to do to players by DM's and other players alike.

While torture and dismemberment, and death even eaten might be a common occurence here (even if it needs to be checked against how the player feel)

Rape in my opinion should never play a role.
And lately i have heard of many such episodes.

As so many male players play female characters it seems it have started a trend and perhaps many of said male characters dont mind much the implications of having their character raped.

Yet i know there are female players that may feel even very uncomfortable by having their character go through things like this.

It should never happen that a player feel uncomfortable by what happens to their character!

Aran/Jon

[Heretic]

Indeed.

It is part of the players' code of conduct, that you tell the DM if a situation makes you uncomfortable. That is an obligation we've got as a DM to feel sensible to those matters when they arise.

Players' obligation:

To Tell the DM if it's Gone Too Far: This is a game. This is about having fun. If the DM's idea of horror goes further than you're comfortable with, tell him so.

DM's obligation:

To Go Only as Far as the Players Wish: Some people have a lower threshold for horror than others. No matter how horrific you wish to make it, D&D is still a game; it's meant to be fun. If one of your players is becoming uncomfortable with a scene or a description, stop.

We've all a different concept of horror - rape for example is a delicate matter for some, but simply a consequence of horror for others. If the subject makes you uncomfortable, you should tell the DM so immediately - the DM should immediately stop and likewise any on going consequence that roleplay provoked, don't be afraid to let the DM know.

[failed.bard]

  Rape is definately touchy.  I'm going to give an example here, in a very general way, from something Dribo did, and the reasonings for what she did and didn't do.
  Dribo had followed, invisibly, a female character to the vampire crypts.  When Dribo caught her alone upstairs in broken tower, she threatened to expose that characters secret if she didn't have sex with Dribo.
  The player, in this case, wasn't comfortable with that, but not in a position ICly to stop it.  We talked it over in tells, and Dribo had her undress, and kiss her.  Dribo, the little monster she was, still got to make the character do what she wanted, and that character still felt violated, but not in a way that bothered the player.

  It's one of those situations where OOC considerations have to outweigh IC ones.  There are other ways to handle it, in some cases, or if it needs to be done for story reasons, it has to be handled in a way that's respectful to the other player.

[Nefensis]

It's like any roleplay that involves something touchy, know the player you play with. If you have doubt they would -ehrem- *enjoy* the development of a certain situation, avoid it at all cost. No one should impose on anyone their view on roleplaying. Monster PCs and antagonists in general should try and look for OOcly *willing* victims of their evil wiles. Not everyone is ready to accept consequences for their character and deeper into that subject, ready to accept such thing as bad as rape. Communication is a plus, no player should ever feel obliged to do anything.

[DM Raven]

I will put my thoughts in here.....

There are many subjects involved in Horror, this is true, murder, torture, rape, these are the three big ones that everyone knows of. This is a roleplay environment, a fantasy as it is and something to escape into which means all three can happen. However in 99% of circumstances the first two Murder and torture most people will never actually encounter in their lives.

The third however is something that can effect a wide range of people and is a lot more common occurrence in life (unfortunately), I personally live in a country where to Expats like me you have to be very aware of this. Each week there is at least one or two occurrences of this here, and it is a tiny country. On certain days of the year I am actually scared (and I mean not wanting to go out of the house scared) because of what can and has occur ed in this country to Expat women, at these times I only leave the house with my husband or children.
So here in myself we already have an occurrence of a real life effect.


What does this mean in terms of Roleplay?

It means that this is a touchy subject to many people, both in the act and more importantly the Aftermath. The act of rape in itself while horrific is much less worse than the aftermath, the stigma involved and the horrific feelings it can induce from suicide through to revenge and everything in between. It can lead to long term trauma for some, and to others they will never recover.

This means if I personally were to 'truly' roleplay the aftermath of a rape, I feel personally that this would effect to many people.  We truly do not know what is the real life situation of most people we play with and what the effect of this kind of roleplay can cause.

Therefore as the esteemed Heretic points out yes it is a choice of each player/DM involved to say how far do we go but on the flip side if the event occurs, it spreads. All the player base can then possibly become involved (Through hersay, interaction with said character etc etc) which means if for example I play the character recovering from a rape, this will effect a lot of players. Where as the actual act was only involving the DM/Player.

I have RP'd before on other servers of the same level rating PG-13 etc and the act of rape was actually banned on these servers, due mainly to the possible effect on some players, it was counted on the same level as cybering.


I love horror and every aspect of it, Ravenloft, the old vampire movies, all the way through to the HOSTEL and SAW series of movies, so personally I have little problems with any form of roleplay, including the above subject, however I personally do feel uncomfortable with the after effect, the ripples of the event.


What I personally think is we have to be careful that our own decisions on what we accept and receive does not get put onto other players where it could possibly effect their enjoyment of the game.


Clar....
xxx


Feel free to shoot me down on any of the above, as i tend to write as I think...       

[Bad_Bud]

I think any explicities should be avoided, but the situation of rape in general shouldn't be completely forbidden.  Half the female PC's on the server are walking around in clothing that is one step away from being naked, but are horrified by the notion of being raped!  How dare they?!

Inferno handled it best when he had a certain PC's "rape".  It was one emote, [has his way with her], and that was it.  It got the point across, it didn't waste time, and no one was disgusted!  Well, okay, they were undead, so maybe it was kind of gross.

[Aran]

they dare because the horror of rape can never be justified by choice of clothing, acting, behavior or anything at all, mentioned or not !

aran

[ThAnswr]

I think we should all remember this is a PG-13 server and we have several minor players here.  The repercussions from violent sexual RP can hurt the server administration legally.  Just like there are real people behind the characters, there are real people behind the server administration.

Many new players do not know the rules and feel they have to go along with whatever comes their way to fit in or they don't realize they can say "no".  Some servers have a rule in that you cannot enter the game until you've read the rules. I don't think it would hurt if something like this was implemented.  Yes, it is a player's responsibility to familiarize themselves.  But, a gentle nudge in the right direction wouldn't hurt.

It cannot be restated enough you can never go wrong with sending a tell to another player if a situation is developing you may feel is beyond their limits or just to get their approval. 

I think any explicities should be avoided, but the situation of rape in general shouldn't be completely forbidden.  Half the female PC's on the server are walking around in clothing that is one step away from being naked, but are horrified by the notion of being raped!  How dare they?!

Ahhh, you're treading in dangerous waters here.  Knowing you as a player, I doubt if you mean provocative clothing is an invitation to rape. 

But sometimes a sense of humor can get you into trouble when talking about things like rape. 

[DM Raven]

Half the female PC's on the server are walking around in clothing that is one step away from being naked, but are horrified by the notion of being raped!  How dare they?!

This is not the kind of comment that should be joked about, the clothing worn by some Player characters I agree can be provocative, but this is the same of half the peoples of the world, and this does never ever justify this kind of action, nore even thinking of it. I know some peoples view others that dress more provocative as cheep and in some cases even treat them as such. But never should this justify the 'easy' option that oh ''she dresses that way so she is asking for it''.

That is the most common excuse given for unjustified actions towards us. Please lets keep the subject matter serious without the cheapening jokey comments.

[Ric]

I agree that we should have some information to the player when they make a new character that informs them that this is a horror-setting and the rules regarding that.

An antagonist who would commit acts of torture, rape, etc. needs to be tasteful (meaning isn't doing anything too explicit that could breach the cyber-sex rule) and respectful (making sure the person isn't getting sick OOC over this) to whoever it is their victim is.  I've seen servers that ThAnswr has described, where they actually ban the RP in general (meaning, you can't play a torturerer/rapist, even if all you do is emote [Does his thing with the victim]), and in honesty, I'm not a fan of that.  It sort of dumbs down the maliciousness and cruelty potential that an evil character can posess.  The act of torture in general falls into one of the deepest pits of 'wrong-doings' imaginable, far beyond death to some extent.  If the RP is done correctly (on both ends), a victim of an IC torture can be forever changed/traumatized by the experience, which really creates great RP.

I remember when James and Cherry had their way with Anna Smythe at one point.  The experience more or less kept the character in a state of panic and shock for several months, due to the psychological and physical effects that went through her.  That kind of after-effect is good RP for a horror-setting.  It's what a monster/antagonize PC thrives on: Fear.  Respect is very important, though, so one should be sure to check a person out OOCly.

Failed Bard's example was also a pretty good one:

  Rape is definately touchy.  I'm going to give an example here, in a very general way, from something Dribo did, and the reasonings for what she did and didn't do.
  Dribo had followed, invisibly, a female character to the vampire crypts.  When Dribo caught her alone upstairs in broken tower, she threatened to expose that characters secret if she didn't have sex with Dribo.
  The player, in this case, wasn't comfortable with that, but not in a position ICly to stop it.  We talked it over in tells, and Dribo had her undress, and kiss her.  Dribo, the little monster she was, still got to make the character do what she wanted, and that character still felt violated, but not in a way that bothered the player.

  It's one of those situations where OOC considerations have to outweigh IC ones.  There are other ways to handle it, in some cases, or if it needs to be done for story reasons, it has to be handled in a way that's respectful to the other player.

[Maryn]

I only had time to skim through this, but I do have something to say in regards to new players, and the possibility of them feeling they have to go along with things.

Be -very- careful with this kind of roleplay. If you've been here a while, make it your responsibility to ask anyone, new or old, in a tell, how they feel about the roleplay. They might feel uncomfortable bringing it up, and if you are the one initiating the roleplay of this nature, take it upon yourself to open the communication lines.

[Rex]

I'll never understand why computer game has to be sononomous with pervert Deviant sex scenes.  I've sat more then a few good players that have no issue with such across a table from each other and said, "OK, repeat that computer scene."  Guess what doesn't happen.

To get back on topic, fade to black is always acceptable, or like Inferno's one liner, more then appropriate.  My inclinations tend to lead me to dislike things that hamper any sort of play of the character.  Killing them, can bring about story.  Near Sighted maiming on the other hand or other things like Indefinite Duration incarceration, or Torture scenes, can in effect, elicit nothing but boredom, and personal dislike and distrust of the folks responsible for such, or repeated instances of such.

Things like having a CR 40 Werewolf Lord show up and chew off the legs of 20 3rd levels, and leaving them that way, is a bit boring for the victim.  Tearing off an arm, could be a good thing.  Tearing off the Right arm of the player under the limits of the game engine, can in effect ruin them for any sort of play since NwN does not let you be left handed.  Combine this with the insanely retarded ease of getting back anyhting ripped off or chewed off completely ruins whatever point was being made story wise in the first place.  Death is already trivial in POTM.  Maiming even more so.

In short, it's not so much what gets done by a DM to a player, it's when they do it at a Whim, and then have no follow up for it within a reasonable scope of time, and no lasting results or concerns once thins are "fixed" that's an issue.

~Rex

[ThAnswr]

I'll never understand why computer game has to be sononomous with pervert Deviant sex scenes.  

I don't get it either, but we all bring what we bring to the game. 

Calor witnessed a torture scene in the Citadel and it looked like the parties involved were having the time of their lives RP-wise.  OTOH, Calor reached for that old cop-out "he went into an elven trance". 

To get back on topic, fade to black is always acceptable, or like Inferno's one liner, more then appropriate.

Yup, less is more.   

[Chrisman888]

 We aren't suppose to emoting any sex scenes anyways. If you do emote the whole "sex/rape" you are breaking the cyber rule. Everything is suppose to be fade to black when it gets into the... "creation point?" ((lol)). What I have always done.. is you just kiss.. throw each other on the bed.. rip of clothes.. and then... [Fade to Black] .. Or sometimes I put [Bang Shikka Bang Bang!]. I know this dampens the RP and what not, but it would be against the rules otherwise.

~ Chris

[Telkar]

In all honesty, I RP because I want to feel things through my character, thus I tend to take my character and his personality to heart. The thought of torture and rape makes my stomach turn upside down, but this lingering thought that it may possibly happen creates a feeling of fear which I find is a positive thing. I really don't think I'd enjoy the RP of the acts themselves or the aftershock Clarisa spoke of. I think it may be dependent upon the circumstances though, but right now, I really hope I never have to experience these things.

Concerning the enjoyment of other players, I'd try to hold on as long as it doesn't repel me too much...yeah, and sometimes I just like the challenge of seeing how much I can take.  

[Rex]

My thing is though if it normally requires an AdultFriendFinder Key, it has no place in a DnD game.

~Rex

[Wids]

On one hand, going too far with the explicit details of rape is icky; nothing gives the player of a victimized character that old "violated" feeling quite like that.

On the other hand, rape exists in Ravenloft.  The Gentleman Caller raped Gabrielle Adierre and we ended up with that Vistani-killing bastard Mallochio.  So it does indeed exist in canon.  And it would be disingenuous to throw it out completely.

When in doubt, I say either stick with light details or face to black.

[Budly]

So is rape really needed for horror?  A good question I believe. I vaguely say no.

[Rex]

On one hand, going too far with the explicit details of rape is icky; nothing gives the player of a victimized character that old "violated" feeling quite like that.

On the other hand, rape exists in Ravenloft.  The Gentleman Caller raped Gabrielle Adierre and we ended up with that Vistani-killing bastard Mallochio.  So it exists in canon.

When in doubt, I say either stick with light details or face to black.

Regardless of the fact that it exists in cannon, doesn't mean that cannon should be used as an excuse to allow Pervy computer sex weirdos an outlet for their ambitions (there's like chat rooms and stuff for that sort of deviant behavior).  Site rules are clear to.  Fade to Black.  Less is More.

Besides when you go with cannon you have to go, Red Vardo:  Group of Merchants and item retrievers/finders (As opposed to cabal of assassins, with mega powered paladin best friends and 20th level backup), Fighters might actually have a magic weapon beyond a +1 ab,Vampires sleep during the daylight hours taking years to develop their salient abilities, and Wizards use spell components.

All kidding aside, There are some things you can do and some you can't and most are spelled out in the rules already.  Anything else, you grab a dm and ask them, or you try and do something involving common sense that doesn't completely wreck the other PC for some sort of playability.  While rape is horrific, there is pretty much no way it would be missed, if it were minimalized.  It really doesn't show up in any descriptive form in horror Literature either(That venue following the Less is More, or Inference angles.

~Rex

[boompowclash]

Regarding rape, the threat of rape is usually enough to make a situation go from creepy to horrifying.  Fade to black is the most tasteful and rule abiding thing.  Personally, my PCs have never raped anyone and never will, I find other deviant things to do to them.

As for alternatives, it really depends on what you're going for.  I'll boast that I have a fairly successful record of tormenting people in a way that contributes, it doesn't always work out but given the chance most people will indulge a scene, for at least long enough to achieve a mood.

and! since the very beginning of my PCs attempting to inflict things on others, I've kept a fluid OOC dialogue going about it.  So if a player is uncomfortable with something, they don't have to be a part of it.  However, that doesn't extend to PvP.  It says full PvP when you enter an in game area, after all.

[Mephisto]

My opinion:

Rape isn't gothic horror. Neither is torture, really. Both are too obvious to be considered 'gothic' horror.

Look at some of the influences for the Ravenloft setting:
Dracula, Frankenstein, the Wolf-man, Jekyll and Hyde, Victorian-era ghost stories...
You will be hard pressed to fight an explicit example of rape or torture in these stories. The subjects, if at all, are alluded to through subtext rather than being explicitly performed.

[Telkar]

So is rape really needed for horror?  A good question I believe. I vaguely say no.

No, and I could never keep playing a character that has been raped, unless I play the sort of character I've utter contempt for. The other closest thing to rape that I've found here, is the addictive bloodsucking of a vampire. It's horrifying without pointing out the vivid level of violence that we know in reality. It's a vague concept which reality we can't fully realize, thus tends not to be painful but is still effective as horror.

I personally don't want rape in my RPing environment...and like to stay far away from those that do.

[Chrisman888]

 It isn't up for discussion anyways. Fade to Black is the rule, you wanna do more I guess log on MSN or whatever an go nuts.

In the end it is all up to the players, if they wanna be part of it or not. But all the players must  go by the "No Cybering Rule" which basically means Fade to Black, even if both players agree to go.... more, it isn't aloud.

~ Chris

[Falcifer]

Rape or sex. Out of the question, for me.

In fact, I generally go so far as to make my characters completely un-viable for romance, specifically the hot lusty kind. Unless someone has a thing for gentlemanly half-orcs, I'm safe.

Torture is up for discussion, still. If someone is going into the detail that makes someone want to throw up behind their screen, somethings amiss. Personally, I've seen more than my fair share of gore, so such dosen't affect me, though I understand completely those who it does.

If your RP is beginning to sound like the more gruesome points of a Saw movie, check around with everyone to see if they're alright.

[Vokan]

While Ravenloft is certainly Gothic Horror, I'd say Ravenloft is also a "Dark" setting.

Take one of the most famous literary masters in history, Shakespeare. His plays are chock full of rape, murder, and torture. Act II, scene III of Titus Andronicus immediately comes to mind. Hell, one could go back WAY further. Take Euripides' The Bacchae.  And that's not to say 19th century literature (The prime of Gothic Horror) doesn't involve of rape and torture, it simply does. Oscar Wilde as an example of such writing, his works are highly surreal, perverted, and freakishly sexualized.

But I suppose that's neither here nor there - it's up to the player what they feel comfortable with - But it would be silly to completely discount torture and other atrocities from Gothic Horror.