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Author Topic: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs  (Read 4017 times)

failed.bard

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Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« on: February 21, 2009, 05:54:54 PM »
  With the new exhaustion system, my necromancer can't really carry bodies anymore, but really, she's a necromancer, they should be carrying themselves.  So....

  Would it be possible to have it where, on casting animate dead on a PC corpse, it spawned in an independent (as in, not tied to the PC, and unsummonable) undead, with the PC corpse being moved to its inventory to drop on death?  Control undead could then be used to make it follow said Necromancer, if they were doing it to move the body for raising.

  I'm aware that under PnP rules if someone is animated and killed they're supposed to require a ressurection, not a raise, but that would be excessive in this case.  I'm also aware DP checks, and alignment shifts should occur every time this is done, so if the DMs/Devs feel this is something better suited to a DM monitored situation as opposed to a use of the spell, I have no issues with that.

Ruxandra

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 10:18:24 PM »
Not that I can play much anymore at the moment (but I still do lurk), isn't putting someone out for who knows how long, just so one can have a neat-o zombie a bit selfish in the extreme? I have never found sitting around in death to be horribly exciting, much less so if my body were unavailable for rezz for 5 hours while Jimbob the Necro uses it to kill spiders.
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failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 10:43:10 PM »
Maria could drag any undead PC around for 15 hours if she wanted to.  She could also kill a PC, burn their bodies, and drag their skull around until she logged.  Assuming something will only be used for the worst purposes is pretty pathetic on your part.
  It's a suggestion, intended for the DMs and Devs to consider.  If you have something constructive to add, please, do so.  Otherwise, keep your insults to yourself.

Wids

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 12:07:07 AM »
Okay, then, let's see if we can make the question more palatable and worthy of an answer.


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Not that I can play much anymore at the moment (but I still do lurk), isn't putting someone out for who knows how long, just so one can have a neat-o zombie a bit selfish in the extreme? I have never found sitting around in death to be horribly exciting, much less so if my body were unavailable for rezz for 5 hours while Jimbob the Necro uses it to kill spiders.
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Wouldn't the act of disabling and inconveniencing another player for an indefinite duration--simply for the personal benefits of having a zombie to command--be considerably selfish or unmutual towards that player?  The experience of death and the subsequent ghostly state can be boring and frustrating, a problem which would certainly be compounded if one's body were unavailable for revival over several hours while a necromancer were to possibly employ one's body towards little more than the necromancer's personal gain.
(Optional addendum: Due to conventional views of undeath, some people would consider such an imposed state of undeath to be a personal violation and would object to that imposed state--or to any game engine system which permitted or facilitated it--vehemently.  This potential for interpersonal discord should be considered when weighing the merits and shortcomings of a script engineered to allow the animation of dead player-characters.)
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So yes, underneath all that caustic and cynical bluster there was a legitimate concern or two.  How do you address these concerns?  :?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 12:09:13 AM by Wids »

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 12:48:20 AM »
  In order to animate a corpse, the person needs to be already dead.  As I said already, I could burn them and drag their corpse around until I logged, if I felt like it.  There are rules against doing things simply to screw another player over.

  If there's a choice between Maria animating a corpse, and making it follow her back to town, or simply leaving it there for who knows how many more hours (because an 8 strength doesn't go very far), under the current system she's going to be leaving the bodies.  Then, they're guaranteed to stay dead, until someone else, probably with less or no IC reason to be there, grabs their body.

  If they could make the spawned skeleton/zomibe somehow be PC controlled, sort of like spawniing it as an already possessed familiar of the PC, it would remove the negative aspects of it right there.

  As for the PCs feeling they've been violated.  This is Ravenloft.  Unless they removed all the raping and torturing that goes on here when I wasn't looking, violation is inherent in the setting.

Wids

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 01:56:07 AM »
  In order to animate a corpse, the person needs to be already dead.  As I said already, I could burn them and drag their corpse around until I logged, if I felt like it.  There are rules against doing things simply to screw another player over.
True enough.

  If there's a choice between Maria animating a corpse, and making it follow her back to town, or simply leaving it there for who knows how many more hours (because an 8 strength doesn't go very far), under the current system she's going to be leaving the bodies.  Then, they're guaranteed to stay dead, until someone else, probably with less or no IC reason to be there, grabs their body.
I know that Maria's your character and you like her very much, but isn't it a bit disingenuous to assume that Maria has more IC reason to be anywhere at anytime than anyone else does?

Viorica has found plenty of dead people--usually lowbies--while wandering Vallaki's streets at night, including that halfling woman that she found in the Marketplace (and hauled off to the Ezrite cathedral) yesterday.  Why does Viorica wander Vallaki's streets at night?  She despises wererats--along with pretty much all other werebeasts--and gets a sense of satisfaction and/or personal vindication out of hunting and killing them.  What is the leading cause of people dying in Vallaki's streets at night?  Wererats.  So wererats find lowbie, wererats kill lowbie, Viorica finds wererats, Viorica kills wererats and Viorica rescues lowbie out of the goodness of her werebeast-hunting, victim-protecting heart.  Cause, effect and countereffect...all perfectly in-character, at that.  :teach:

But that's a minor quibble, I suppose.  Next point thingie.

  If they could make the spawned skeleton/zomibe somehow be PC controlled, sort of like spawniing it as an already possessed familiar of the PC, it would remove the negative aspects of it right there.
That would be an agreeable compromise, I think.

  As for the PCs feeling they've been violated.  This is Ravenloft.  Unless they removed all the raping and torturing that goes on here when I wasn't looking, violation is inherent in the setting.
You know what I mean.  Not violation as in "The moon is full but I went to Camp Crystal Lake anyway, and now Jason Voorhees is eating pieces of my brain? ARRRGH!"  Violation as in "You took my car keys while I was in the hospital, and then without my permission you drove my car down to Tijuana, got it a paint job with a horrible blue flame motif, bedded two hookers in the backseat and ran it into a telephone pole, then wandered off to find a bar while Mexican thugs stripped my car down to the chassis?  ARRRGH!"

Horror settings don't justify slapping players with bad voodoo on a whim, unheeding of whether or not they might not be in a good enough state to deal with it.  Call them Care Bears if you must, but it all boils down to whether or not you might be kicking someone when they're down, considering the circumstances.

This idea does have potential, if done right.  But then again, the last thing that we warrior-lovers with the higher corpse-lugging Strength scores want is one less reason for warriors to be useful or important on this magic-favoring server.  A Strength-8 wizard may just come to enjoy the company of the Strength-16 fighter who agreed to help lug a corpse to the wizard's favorite temple, even if the wizard did just spend 15 minutes hunting that fighter down.  :?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 01:59:19 AM by Wids »

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 02:10:31 AM »
Quote
Quote
If there's a choice between Maria animating a corpse, and making it follow her back to town, or simply leaving it there for who knows how many more hours (because an 8 strength doesn't go very far), under the current system she's going to be leaving the bodies.  Then, they're guaranteed to stay dead, until someone else, probably with less or no IC reason to be there, grabs their body.
I know that Maria's your character and you like her very much, but isn't it a bit disingenuous to assume that Maria has more IC reason to be anywhere at anytime than anyone else does?
  I didn't phrase that well.  If the character is already in an easily accessable place, especially if it's close to town, it's not really an issue.  If they died after taking a wrong turn on Ghakis, and you only stumbled on them after taking said wrong turn yourself, they could be there for weeks barring an OOC grab, especially with the body not being present from the time of a reset until the character logs on again.

darkpriest

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 05:07:29 AM »
Hm I wonder what would happen if you would stumble upon a bunch of two goody shoers called paladins and theywould kill you and destroyed permanently the undead you created.. There would be a great dose of risk connected with this solution. I am all for animating dead PCs into certain undead types, but that should be done on specific occasions an under a DM overwatch. I think it should be a part of RP where once PC can turnother into a monstrous race (zombies, skeletons - death knights FTW), but those would require specific components (as in onyxes, obsidians, black diamonds, etc.). In a current situations our beloved create undead and animate dead spells are nothing more but summoning spells. We summon servants from the death plane i guess, or some other places of this demi-plane.

There are tons of IC and some OOC risks of enabling players to animate others' corpses that if such thing would be implemented all involved parties should know the risks of using such a feature.

PS. It annoys me greatly that I see some people summoning undead and demons whenever in a party and they do not even care if some character in that party could become really hostile towards the caster.

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 05:17:23 AM »
  I'm not suggesting being able to turn PCs into monstrous template PCs off a spell.  The possibility of Do Gooders TM wanting to kill you for doing it is part of that balancing mechanism.  That, and the 10-20% chance of a DP for doing it.

Ruxandra

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 07:12:36 PM »
There was nothing wrong with my comment at all. It's fine and a legitimate concern. Not one insult in it.

Death is boring. This just seems a pointless thing to put out another player in leiu of having the cajones to burn the body or just casting an animate dead. I'd rather not see it if you're not going to make it inclusive to the person you're basically booting from the game for your session.

"Oh hey, I'm using you to go xping, might as well log off for um... Oh it's my day off, do something else for 12 hours. Thanks."

...
Ruxandra, Beater of the Elderly! (It was medicinal, really!)
"I never stabbed anything that didn't stop being an immediate problem."

Ratchet, Lost Wingnut with a Screw Loose
"Barovia will know true fear, she carries a wrench and wields dimples."

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 08:01:17 PM »
  People that don't feel the server is worth their time to play to begin with, telling people what they should or shouldn't do is insulting.  Add something constructive when you comment, or just don't.

Ruxandra

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 08:30:24 PM »
I never said any such thing about the server, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. My computer cannot handle the latest CEP (crashes within three minutes of loading) and I can't upgrade, so I don't login Ravenloft much.

What I said was plenty constructive, just to the other party. You're not taking into account there's another fellow player involved in your hypothetical interraction, one of which in your example might as well log off and do their laundry and see a movie for the novelty of another player having a zombie around.

Not every idea as posed is a good one. Telling people to be constructive of bad ideas or say nothing at all isn't a discussion. It's the sound of one hand clapping.
Ruxandra, Beater of the Elderly! (It was medicinal, really!)
"I never stabbed anything that didn't stop being an immediate problem."

Ratchet, Lost Wingnut with a Screw Loose
"Barovia will know true fear, she carries a wrench and wields dimples."

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 08:43:34 PM »
You posted nothing constructive.  How hard would it to have been to say, "I think this shouldn't go in without some sort of allowance for the dead character to interact within it", instead of an attack?

Dhark

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 09:41:05 PM »
Umm I hate to dip into this very caustic thread , but I always thought if you were animated as any form of undead , then it would require  nothing short of a wish to get you back ..and thats in a normal campaign setting !

I really have to say , while the idea of maybe getting a really good temporary henchman out of a slain PC is appealing , I honestly think , to remain true to the setting its a no brainer .   On the note of burning the body & picking up thier charred remains , consisting of a skull maybe & cracked bone fragments , this wont really get you anything but a bowling ball that can tell you how many pins youve knocked over .

Id rather see this apply to NPCs only

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 09:58:00 PM »
  You would get a 2 HD zombie, or a 1 HD skeleton, as opposed to the demon stomping skeleton chieftien you would get casting the spell normally.  You would /not/ get an undead version of the PC, as that's not what the spell does, even in PnP.
  In PnP, a ressurection is required to return an animated then killed body to life.  I made note of this in my initial post, and also said I felt a normal raise dead was more appropiate still, in that I stated, requireing the ress after would be excessive.

Ideally, it would be done with the undead being spawned as a possessable familiar of the dead PC, where the animator could "order" it to head to the nearest temple if that was their desire.
  Either way, control undead (a 7th level spell in Maria's case) would be required to force it to follow you.  For a mage it would take a 5th and 7th level spell to get a 2 HD lackey.  It's not something they would use for dungeoning, when you can just as easily grab a vampire warrior.

kenpen

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 10:01:24 PM »
It does. Least in 2nd Edition, but I don't have all the 3+ books. I have better things to spend my money on now than an mind-bogglingly extensive D&D collection.

I don't think PC corpses should be animate-able with the basic use of the spell. Too much confusion, and too many issues. If a person would like to apply for wights and mummies and such - however -  the spells do allow for that. Could be a more interesting way to become dead-ified... PC conflict, rather than a DM plot.

I do think necromancers somewhat get the shaft on NWN servers. One of the coolest thing about being a necromancer in PnP was eventually building yourself a nice undead army and sitting in some fortress somewhere. NWN doesn't work that, though, so it really sucks. I think it would be cool for undead servants to last just as long as familiars (deleting upon rest or reset.) I know people would B&M about how they're using the monsters to fight for them but, um... that's sorta the point of being a necromancer. If you're too sorry to figure out a way to kill a skeletal champion, then you deserve to die.

Necromancers should be one of the most awesome things to be in Ravenloft. You've got entire realms built off of necromancy. But here it's sadly less effective than empathizing an ancient dire bear.

Give that sad pathetic pale master something to shoot for. Let his summons last for the entire duration of his login time. And building some new undead to have as familiars/servants... that would be nice too.

arrmuth

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2009, 12:50:00 AM »
I say kill all the bloody necromancers. ;) 

Its an interesting idea for the spell but it does have room for abuse. Perhaps a joint agreement between the caster and the victim would be required.

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2009, 02:46:01 AM »
I say kill all the bloody necromancers. ;) 

Its an interesting idea for the spell but it does have room for abuse. Perhaps a joint agreement between the caster and the victim would be required.
  Or only under DM monitoring, which I also said as an option in my first post.


  To be honest, I could animate a PC corpse now if a DM was on, and willing to rename a standard template undead of some sort.  This was just an idea, in a very rough form at the beginning, that I wanted the DMs/Devs opinion on if it was feasable, and had merit and RP potential for the setting.

  Getting caught animating a PC corpse would be a fast track to perma-death, and not getting caught would get you darklorded off pretty quickly if you kept doing it.  Either way, the caster is taking a huge risk doing it.

  We'd need a Dev to say if it's possible to spawn the undead as an already possessed familiar to the PC corpse.  If that can be done, then the victim could participate fully in the process, and will even be getting XP for every [shambles], [gurgles], and [looks toward *insert necro here* with lustreless, but hate filled eyes].

mayvind

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2009, 03:28:04 AM »
This discussion wont even need to happend if the exhausted wasnt insert, now the need to rebalance the corpse tranportation appear then, there will be another system rebalance about it and so on so on.

Forcing another character into a mindless zombie is not cool, even though intention was to transport them around, but the RP abusive hole is so huge and as said only wish spell or those high elven magic in faerun that can restore back undead.

Can you imagine taking a skeleton corpse of Maria to see a morninglordian? they probary ..destroy the skeleton along with the necromancer, It is theirs tenet or so i beleive.

failed.bard

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Re: Spells - Animate Dead - System suggestion for using on PCs
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2009, 04:09:07 AM »
  It doesn't take a wish or any high elven magic.  Under normal circumstances, meaning PnP, not the translation of it here, a raise dead would have no effect at all on a slain undead, and a resurrection would restore them fully to life, unless they died of old age.
  This is all that would be required to restore /any/ undead to life, even Strahd, assuming you could kill him in a way in which he was both dead, and left enough remains for the spell to be cast on.


  As for the exhaustion system being the root of the thought, it wasn't.  Morgan dying before the exhasution system came in was the root of it.  She told him next time she's simply animate his corpse she she didn't have to carry him.  Much pouting ensued.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 04:11:27 AM by failed.bard »