Polymorph and tenser details ~ can we have them please?

[That damn elf]

For starters...it isn't a +5 weapon. It is just treated as one in regards to damage versus resistance/mitigation. And considering the polymorph forms(save the pixie) are all unarmed that is certainly understandable in my opinion.

[Rex]

For starters...it isn't a +5 weapon. It is just treated as one in regards to damage versus resistance/mitigation. And considering the polymorph forms(save the pixie) are all unarmed that is certainly understandable in my opinion.

It's Cheese.  It allows an effect that shouldn't be viable, and when combined with the enormous stat benefits of a polymorphed form, is retardedly over balanced.  If it let's you bypass DR, at the +5 level, it's exceptionally out of Skew with Everything else that's supposed to let you do that as the effect of that particular Spell.

If the scope of action is to pull the Polymorph, Shape Change, and Tensers into Scale with the book, because of the severe Mis-balance  they present, then the things that get stacked on top of those spells, Things like Stoneskin that add to the shapes effect granting it an ability it would not nor should not have, is cheese.

~Rex

[failed.bard]

For starters...it isn't a +5 weapon. It is just treated as one in regards to damage versus resistance/mitigation. And considering the polymorph forms(save the pixie) are all unarmed that is certainly understandable in my opinion.

It's Cheese.  It allows an effect that shouldn't be viable, and when combined with the enormous stat benefits of a polymorphed form, is retardedly over balanced.  If it let's you bypass DR, at the +5 level, it's exceptionally out of Skew with Everything else that's supposed to let you do that as the effect of that particular Spell.

If the scope of action is to pull the Polymorph, Shape Change, and Tensers into Scale with the book, because of the severe Mis-balance  they present, then the things that get stacked on top of those spells, Things like Stoneskin that add to the shapes effect granting it an ability it would not nor should not have, is cheese.

~Rex

  Creatures that have DR, bypass DR based on their own when using unarmed attacks.  Any spell or ability that grants DR, when added to any spell or ability that turns the character into a creature, will allow DR to be bypassed.

  I posted the part about stoneskin simply as a comparative note, since Shady said tensers was weaker than polymorph for him now.  For Wilhelm, tensers is stronger, but without someone there to buff the sword, polymorph is better against things with +2/- DR.

[kenpen]

Let's put the stoneskin crap on another thread, and solve one problem at a time.

Tenser's isn't shape-shift or a polymorph. You should still be able to buff prior to the transformation. I can't find anything in the books that counters that. If it's there stated in black and white, let me know so I can check it out.

Getting a Free +5 Weapon out of the deal when 99 percent of the server is intentionally kept from such an advantage is an issue.  There is nothing against buffing before Tensers and No one made any mention of that anyway it was with what you Can do with Stoneskin PLUS polymorph (part of the topic), and how it related to the next spell up the list (shapechange) and how that does by the book, blow off previous super natural abilities in replacement of those which the form assumed has.

Also I'm not the one that brought in the Stone Skin issue anyway that was provided by the quoted Player, and it's effects certainly DO effect the balance of the status quo of the spells that are part of the topic.  It definitly qualifies, as a Detail of the effects as a whole.


I still think a straight Buff mechanic like the way Divine Might works would be a better set up then a polymorph effect for Tensers.  If it's possible to set it up that way and considering that it seems that every Caster that can do Tensers is riddled with DP points that they lose every time they use the spell, it could solve a lot of issues.

~Rex

Alright. Since the stoneskin crap apparently isn't going away, here's the other side.

Once the monsters tear off your stoneskin, which doesn't take that long, you're stuck without the +5. If you want to have it back, you're stuck with unpolymorphing and recasting it. Last time I checked, someone casting stoneskin on you while in the same form still leaves you screwed - something with the skin appears permanently messed up by it, just the same way you have to unequip and reequip your weapons if the buff drops off, or the system doesn't register it.

And, really, who gives a damned if it allows you to hit +5 creatures? That's all it does. And I don't think there's a single monster on here that requires more than a +3 to hit. If so, I've never encountered it or noticed it. And I've killed everything on here but the NPCs. About a thousand times.  And it's never been an issue, even without stoneskin.  So, what, drop it down to +3? That's not going to affect anything either way. It's not affecting the balance because there's not anything that requires a +5 to hit. It would affect the balance the OTHER way, actually, since if I'm a shape-shifted troll I /should/ be able to pick up the +3 greatsword I like wielding and wield it as a troll. But the system doesn't allow the other skins to arm weapons. So, having the stoneskin allow me to hit things as a troll that I SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIT ANYWAY with the +3 weapon I WOULD be using (which I am not able to arm due to the system considerations) doesn't really seem like such a big deal.

For feck's sake, let's pick something more useful to talk about.

[kenpen]

In general, I think we're back to trying to make everything here like PnP, which isn't going to work in a lot of cases. And, if we're going that route, then the first thing I'd like to see is the god's-damned spell effects not shining over your head like a beacon for every single minor spell out  there. :-P

Personally, I will REALLY like the new Tenser's if it can be made exactly like the book without the skin issues. It would make actually make Grim STRONGER than the current Tenser's, if you can believe that.

[Nefensis]

The neverending mission of nit picking ! Let's just give some time to Soren to fiddle the adjustments.

[shadymerchant]

I'd rather not post too much about this, since one individual's experience doesn't really amount to much, but tenser was really the last bastion of offense for my non-int dc caster. I'd prefer summons, but those have already been nerfed. As it was, my wizard had a way to be equal to many of the other classes on the server, but now that is gone. So, with things being as they are, I just have to adjust the way I roleplayed before. Instead of taking a dominant role, and being dominant, I am a rather ineffectual caster that can use his AC to tank. It's the original role I intended, but I had rather grown into the new one. Going from leading through the highest dungeons on the server to nearly dying in a low spawn lich tower because the form is now so weak is rather depressing. Combined with the other spell changes, and the future nerfs I am sure will come, I just don't see my own experience doing anything but degrading and becoming more frustating.

[fulkren]

does anyone know if the Duration on the polymorph spell has increased at all? and what is it initially?

[HellsPanda]

think it was returned to what it used to be, or at least it looked that way to me

[failed.bard]

I think the duration was posted in the spell changes thread.  I don't know if it's the same as before the first change, but it's significantly higher than the first modified version.

  Sadly, Maria will have to very occasionally drink a healing potion now, but the longer duration allows the spell to be used for RP purposes again.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Yup, polymorph and shapechange have the 1 turn+1 turn/level duration now again.

Bear in mind though that Shape Change, by the book, Removes all existing Supernatural Abilities spells and what not and replaces it with the forms own.  Hence, no Uber Buffing BEFORE you shape Shift then Shape Shift and Tah Dah, it all stacks!  (having someone ELSE buff you though after you shapeshift is still workable).   

As I read it:

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

... you don't loose all supernatural effects, but only the supernatural abilities of prior shape. That makes much more sense to me too - if you were a drow mage before, you loose the drow's natural spell resistance - because effectively, you are no longer a drow. Not many spells work as supernatural effects anyway.

I'll try to convert tenser's transformation to something more useful as soon as I get around it. Concerning stoneskin, as interesting as the topic is, let's discuss it in a separate topic.

[Rex]

Yup, polymorph and shapechange have the 1 turn+1 turn/level duration now again.

Bear in mind though that Shape Change, by the book, Removes all existing Supernatural Abilities spells and what not and replaces it with the forms own.  Hence, no Uber Buffing BEFORE you shape Shift then Shape Shift and Tah Dah, it all stacks!  (having someone ELSE buff you though after you shapeshift is still workable).   

As I read it:

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

... you don't loose all supernatural effects, but only the supernatural abilities of prior shape. That makes much more sense to me too - if you were a drow mage before, you loose the drow's natural spell resistance - because effectively, you are no longer a drow. Not many spells work as supernatural effects anyway.

I'll try to convert tenser's transformation to something more useful as soon as I get around it. Concerning stoneskin, as interesting as the topic is, let's discuss it in a separate topic.

Separate topic for stoneskin is fine by me.  I understand that everyone else is allowed to have a point but anything Rex comes up with is just nitpicking, and that everyone else can fire off G-D damned this or that at a whim without the fear of being banned or hammered senseless like Rex, in a barrage of anti Rex spite and hate, but you are missing the Point.

You as a Caster are not supposed to be the end all and be all of a Melee Attack.  The Game of Dungeons and Dragons, is based around Parties.  Not Solo Uberness.  It is absolutely Earth Shaking, the Melee Power of a properly Buffed Fighter or Barbarian.  That's their niche, in the Party.  A proper set up of spells, makes the game easily more DnD, less World of Warcraft, less MMO, and more fun for a greater majority of players, as opposed to the "fun" of the three or four dedicated soloists out there that basically ream out the dungeons so that no one else ever gets to see them at their best.

 Tensers and Shape Shift and Polymorph, are there to provide the Arcane Casters with something interesting if they have to use it, when their Party falls apart, or they get stuck somewhere alone.  It's not supposed to be, "Look, I can layer this this this and this and with Haste I can flush out every dungeon in 8 minutes log off get a beer, come back in 20 minutes and repeat."

There's Post after Post, about "I'm bored I have nothing to do with my super powerful Caster..."  Well, when the spells are balanced, then the boredom goes away.    All but 2 of the classes, are nerfed out of contention vs anything with DR beyond +1, the balanced is skewed.

So far it looks like Soren is on the right track and I still like the idea if possible of modifying Tensers to be an enhancement like the Divine Might stuff as opposed to a Polymorph effect.  Still lean towards components as well, since I think that would compliment the crafting system to.

The Longer duration is a nice touch as well since that does promote a few more RP possibilities.  My question would be (since I refuse to play a Caster when the player list is 30 people long, and 27 of them are casters), was the Polymorph spell set up to be usable on other People (or is that even possible?).

~Rex
 

[JipK]

Nope, it's the Polymorph Self spell. Polymorph Other doesn't exist in nwn.

[kenpen]

If spell components are added, I will consider killing myself unless they can just be bought at the store. Some people may like running around gathering junk, spending hours upon hours upon days doing so, but I do not. I did my turn at crafting, spent WAY too much time on it, and I've decided that endless fishing, actual farming of herbs, and weaving junk to sell to others is better left to true MMORP where people pay real money money and therefore feel like they should be spending their real lives doing the same repetitive tasks they must do every day in real life, so they can justify the 20 bucks a month they toss out.

To continue on with the thread, I think Tenser's working like a divine might to give you the fighter AB, the extra AC, the 4 extra points to all physicals is probably the way to go.

It would also be nice if polymorph were usable to shift into other races and thereby provide disguises, alternative identities, and other such entertainment.

[Rex]

If spell components are added, I will consider killing myself unless they can just be bought at the store. Some people may like running around gathering junk, spending hours upon hours upon days doing so, but I do not. I did my turn at crafting, spent WAY too much time on it, and I've decided that endless fishing, actual farming of herbs, and weaving junk to sell to others is better left to true MMORP where people pay real money money and therefore feel like they should be spending their real lives doing the same repetitive tasks they must do every day in real life, so they can justify the 20 bucks a month they toss out.

To continue on with the thread, I think Tenser's working like a divine might to give you the fighter AB, the extra AC, the 4 extra points to all physicals is probably the way to go.

It would also be nice if polymorph were usable to shift into other races and thereby provide disguises, alternative identities, and other such entertainment.

So.  A Cocoon for Polymorph, a jade piece of jewlery for Shape Change that isn't consumed by the spell, and a potion of Bulls Strength equals hours and Hour upon Days?  You don't want to invest your "Rea"l Time, that's fine I understand that.  Just give me my +3 sword so I don't have to invest MY real time trying to convince a caster to go to a dungeon with me.

Alternate forms would be a nice addition though.  Not sure how that could be done but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere.  Polymorph other would be interesting if it could be pulled off.  I could see some serious RP potential in that.

~Rex

[shadymerchant]

Yup, polymorph and shapechange have the 1 turn+1 turn/level duration now again.

Bear in mind though that Shape Change, by the book, Removes all existing Supernatural Abilities spells and what not and replaces it with the forms own.  Hence, no Uber Buffing BEFORE you shape Shift then Shape Shift and Tah Dah, it all stacks!  (having someone ELSE buff you though after you shapeshift is still workable).   

As I read it:

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

... you don't loose all supernatural effects, but only the supernatural abilities of prior shape. That makes much more sense to me too - if you were a drow mage before, you loose the drow's natural spell resistance - because effectively, you are no longer a drow. Not many spells work as supernatural effects anyway.

I'll try to convert tenser's transformation to something more useful as soon as I get around it. Concerning stoneskin, as interesting as the topic is, let's discuss it in a separate topic.

Separate topic for stoneskin is fine by me.  I understand that everyone else is allowed to have a point but anything Rex comes up with is just nitpicking, and that everyone else can fire off G-D damned this or that at a whim without the fear of being banned or hammered senseless like Rex, in a barrage of anti Rex spite and hate, but you are missing the Point.

You as a Caster are not supposed to be the end all and be all of a Melee Attack.  The Game of Dungeons and Dragons, is based around Parties.  Not Solo Uberness.  It is absolutely Earth Shaking, the Melee Power of a properly Buffed Fighter or Barbarian.  That's their niche, in the Party.  A proper set up of spells, makes the game easily more DnD, less World of Warcraft, less MMO, and more fun for a greater majority of players, as opposed to the "fun" of the three or four dedicated soloists out there that basically ream out the dungeons so that no one else ever gets to see them at their best.

 Tensers and Shape Shift and Polymorph, are there to provide the Arcane Casters with something interesting if they have to use it, when their Party falls apart, or they get stuck somewhere alone.  It's not supposed to be, "Look, I can layer this this this and this and with Haste I can flush out every dungeon in 8 minutes log off get a beer, come back in 20 minutes and repeat."

There's Post after Post, about "I'm bored I have nothing to do with my super powerful Caster..."  Well, when the spells are balanced, then the boredom goes away.    All but 2 of the classes, are nerfed out of contention vs anything with DR beyond +1, the balanced is skewed.

So far it looks like Soren is on the right track and I still like the idea if possible of modifying Tensers to be an enhancement like the Divine Might stuff as opposed to a Polymorph effect.  Still lean towards components as well, since I think that would compliment the crafting system to.

The Longer duration is a nice touch as well since that does promote a few more RP possibilities.  My question would be (since I refuse to play a Caster when the player list is 30 people long, and 27 of them are casters), was the Polymorph spell set up to be usable on other People (or is that even possible?).

~Rex
 

I don't mean to flame you, but you really don't know what you're talking about. Really. Specifically because you are not invited to the majority of trips. You have no insights into balance, dungeons, farming, or the players involved, because you exist outside all of that and do not have the participation necessary to be making descriptive statements. You are well aware of DnD, obviously, so your elaboration on that is certainly welcome. NWN, and specifically the dynamics of this module, you are lacking a role in that qualifies you for statements regarding "how it is." How it should be is another matter I would suppose, but then it's hard to make that judgement as well when you lack a great deal of information.

[Heretic]

Going from leading through the highest dungeons on the server to nearly dying in a low spawn lich tower because the form is now so weak is rather depressing. Combined with the other spell changes, and the future nerfs I am sure will come, I just don't see my own experience doing anything but degrading and becoming more frustating.

Partying you are still a force to be reckoned with. Traveling alone has its risks, I watch all the time; I don't think its going to lessen you much nor your experience when in a strong group such as being with Roland and others you usually travel with (And really, there its fun to watch); if anything, makes it less trivial and exciting. Makes it more Ravenloft - the change is the hard part to adapt, but I guess its the compromise.

As a DM, I found the Tensers' form absurd in power, I find it lessens the experience for others around when inevitable chewing occurred with that spell combination and I wont be one to toss something to Match it; only thing I do vs tensers (Is Demonologists - dispelling)

I can certainly understand you being more affected than others, since Tensers'; you were very dependent on it, but you've plenty of Magiko to go around and buddies to go around and beat everything everywhere.

[kenpen]

If spell components are added, I will consider killing myself unless they can just be bought at the store. Some people may like running around gathering junk, spending hours upon hours upon days doing so, but I do not. I did my turn at crafting, spent WAY too much time on it, and I've decided that endless fishing, actual farming of herbs, and weaving junk to sell to others is better left to true MMORP where people pay real money money and therefore feel like they should be spending their real lives doing the same repetitive tasks they must do every day in real life, so they can justify the 20 bucks a month they toss out.

To continue on with the thread, I think Tenser's working like a divine might to give you the fighter AB, the extra AC, the 4 extra points to all physicals is probably the way to go.

It would also be nice if polymorph were usable to shift into other races and thereby provide disguises, alternative identities, and other such entertainment.

So.  A Cocoon for Polymorph, a jade piece of jewlery for Shape Change that isn't consumed by the spell, and a potion of Bulls Strength equals hours and Hour upon Days?  You don't want to invest your "Rea"l Time, that's fine I understand that.  Just give me my +3 sword so I don't have to invest MY real time trying to convince a caster to go to a dungeon with me.

Alternate forms would be a nice addition though.  Not sure how that could be done but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere.  Polymorph other would be interesting if it could be pulled off.  I could see some serious RP potential in that.

~Rex

Ha. I gave you my Shadowborn Zweihander. That's the best I can do.

And, yes, any amount of time I have to take picking up crap from around the map, while everyone else is trying to pick up that same exact crap, is too much time. I feel for all these people doing the herbalism.

[Rex]

Yup, polymorph and shapechange have the 1 turn+1 turn/level duration now again.

Bear in mind though that Shape Change, by the book, Removes all existing Supernatural Abilities spells and what not and replaces it with the forms own.  Hence, no Uber Buffing BEFORE you shape Shift then Shape Shift and Tah Dah, it all stacks!  (having someone ELSE buff you though after you shapeshift is still workable).   

As I read it:

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

... you don't loose all supernatural effects, but only the supernatural abilities of prior shape. That makes much more sense to me too - if you were a drow mage before, you loose the drow's natural spell resistance - because effectively, you are no longer a drow. Not many spells work as supernatural effects anyway.

I'll try to convert tenser's transformation to something more useful as soon as I get around it. Concerning stoneskin, as interesting as the topic is, let's discuss it in a separate topic.

Separate topic for stoneskin is fine by me.  I understand that everyone else is allowed to have a point but anything Rex comes up with is just nitpicking, and that everyone else can fire off G-D damned this or that at a whim without the fear of being banned or hammered senseless like Rex, in a barrage of anti Rex spite and hate, but you are missing the Point.

You as a Caster are not supposed to be the end all and be all of a Melee Attack.  The Game of Dungeons and Dragons, is based around Parties.  Not Solo Uberness.  It is absolutely Earth Shaking, the Melee Power of a properly Buffed Fighter or Barbarian.  That's their niche, in the Party.  A proper set up of spells, makes the game easily more DnD, less World of Warcraft, less MMO, and more fun for a greater majority of players, as opposed to the "fun" of the three or four dedicated soloists out there that basically ream out the dungeons so that no one else ever gets to see them at their best.

 Tensers and Shape Shift and Polymorph, are there to provide the Arcane Casters with something interesting if they have to use it, when their Party falls apart, or they get stuck somewhere alone.  It's not supposed to be, "Look, I can layer this this this and this and with Haste I can flush out every dungeon in 8 minutes log off get a beer, come back in 20 minutes and repeat."

There's Post after Post, about "I'm bored I have nothing to do with my super powerful Caster..."  Well, when the spells are balanced, then the boredom goes away.    All but 2 of the classes, are nerfed out of contention vs anything with DR beyond +1, the balanced is skewed.

So far it looks like Soren is on the right track and I still like the idea if possible of modifying Tensers to be an enhancement like the Divine Might stuff as opposed to a Polymorph effect.  Still lean towards components as well, since I think that would compliment the crafting system to.

The Longer duration is a nice touch as well since that does promote a few more RP possibilities.  My question would be (since I refuse to play a Caster when the player list is 30 people long, and 27 of them are casters), was the Polymorph spell set up to be usable on other People (or is that even possible?).

~Rex
 

I don't mean to flame you, but you really don't know what you're talking about. Really. Specifically because you are not invited to the majority of trips. You have no insights into balance, dungeons, farming, or the players involved, because you exist outside all of that and do not have the participation necessary to be making descriptive statements. You are well aware of DnD, obviously, so your elaboration on that is certainly welcome. NWN, and specifically the dynamics of this module, you are lacking a role in that qualifies you for statements regarding "how it is." How it should be is another matter I would suppose, but then it's hard to make that judgement as well when you lack a great deal of information.

Hmm.  Hard one to answer since I have to color code it so as not to lose my place.  1.  I do know what I am talking about.  Enough to be paid for my opinion at least in the gaming industry.  2.  I may not be invited along on the trips YOU go on, but for the most part that is because I play by character and environment, and there are certain things and people those PC's will not associate with.  Also, there are certain people that I choose not to be around in genreral, always for an IC reason.  3.  I don't let my OOC viewpoints cloud my IC actions.  I have Immense Insight into balance, dungeons etc.  And I am not "outside it all", up to and including being sought after by DM request for multitudes of events.  Seriously to assume just because I'm not in your circle of friends (Or am I?  Different CD Keys, IP's, that sort of thing) I don't know what I'm talking about is well, ludacris.

Now, the next Flame.  Good thing Rex is Fire Proof.  Ah hell it's not a Flame it's just kenpen and since he's good people one should answer the posts of the good people right?

If spell components are added, I will consider killing myself unless they can just be bought at the store. Some people may like running around gathering junk, spending hours upon hours upon days doing so, but I do not. I did my turn at crafting, spent WAY too much time on it, and I've decided that endless fishing, actual farming of herbs, and weaving junk to sell to others is better left to true MMORP where people pay real money money and therefore feel like they should be spending their real lives doing the same repetitive tasks they must do every day in real life, so they can justify the 20 bucks a month they toss out.

To continue on with the thread, I think Tenser's working like a divine might to give you the fighter AB, the extra AC, the 4 extra points to all physicals is probably the way to go.

It would also be nice if polymorph were usable to shift into other races and thereby provide disguises, alternative identities, and other such entertainment.

So.  A Cocoon for Polymorph, a jade piece of jewlery for Shape Change that isn't consumed by the spell, and a potion of Bulls Strength equals hours and Hour upon Days?  You don't want to invest your "Rea"l Time, that's fine I understand that.  Just give me my +3 sword so I don't have to invest MY real time trying to convince a caster to go to a dungeon with me.

Alternate forms would be a nice addition though.  Not sure how that could be done but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere.  Polymorph other would be interesting if it could be pulled off.  I could see some serious RP potential in that.

~Rex

Ha. I gave you my Shadowborn Zweihander. That's the best I can do.

And, yes, any amount of time I have to take picking up crap from around the map, while everyone else is trying to pick up that same exact crap, is too much time. I feel for all these people doing the herbalism.

You know that thing came in handy.  Crafting is and always has been messy.  Always preferred a rather DM engined version of it myself since it weeds out the fly by nighters and keeps the serious folk entertained.

Finally, the quote of someone that understands!

Going from leading through the highest dungeons on the server to nearly dying in a low spawn lich tower because the form is now so weak is rather depressing. Combined with the other spell changes, and the future nerfs I am sure will come, I just don't see my own experience doing anything but degrading and becoming more frustating.

Partying you are still a force to be reckoned with. Traveling alone has its risks, I watch all the time; I don't think its going to lessen you much nor your experience when in a strong group such as being with Roland and others you usually travel with (And really, there its fun to watch); if anything, makes it less trivial and exciting. Makes it more Ravenloft - the change is the hard part to adapt, but I guess its the compromise.

As a DM, I found the Tensers' form absurd in power, I find it lessens the experience for others around when inevitable chewing occurred with that spell combination and I wont be one to toss something to Match it; only thing I do vs tensers (Is Demonologists - dispelling)

I can certainly understand you being more affected than others, since Tensers'; you were very dependent on it, but you've plenty of Magiko to go around and buddies to go around and beat everything everywhere.

Which is precisly the Point.  Even without the Tensers spell still being more of a polymorph effect as opposed to a Buff effect, it's Supremely more balanced now, then what it was before.  It makes it More Ravenloft.  Less WOW.

~Rex

[That damn elf]

Still...polymorph is in every way more effective and useful then tensers.

[hi-di-ho]

Still...polymorph is in every way more effective and useful then tensers.

Your right...

Then lets nerf Polymorph too so that its weaker than tensers!!!

[Knas]

Let's lock this until Sören has been given a moment to tweak it, no use discussin stuff that's not finished, especially in this manner. If anyone wishes to debate the issue once sören has tweaked it you're free to PM a moderator to unlock this.

[Knas]

unlocked! discuss!

[shadymerchant]

The spell is now appears to be very useful and quite interesting in what it means for pvp and pvm. In some ways it is more powerful than it was before. I like it. Thanks team. Here's somethings I noticed

can still use scrolls
can still use potions
can't talk to NPC's while spell is active
can't cancel spell once it's been cast, so you're stuck until its done. Bad for casters, good for tensers potion/scroll users.
Somewhat limiting in that most arcane casters don't have martial feat, so while they can equip something when tensered, it will be either a plain (base stats) weapon or a simple weapon like a dagger.

[failed.bard]

Buffed, in the new tensers form:  22 25 21 - - -  AB  +26/+21, AC 28 (in armour, AC 25 out)
Buffed, in the old tensers form:    25 24 21 - - -  AB +24/+19,  AC 21

Wilhel got a higher AB under the new spell, even with a worse base strength buff.  Plus the flaming greatsword was less effective even before the first change than an undead inpaler against incorporeal undead (even moreso if you have a holy gavel).  All around, for him at least, this version of the spell is actually more powerful, and useful.

  Tensered WMs, if the potions of Hector's Essence ever drop again, are going to be absolute killing machines with it.