Author Topic: Items - Witch-hunter Armors  (Read 5072 times)

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« on: November 13, 2008, 02:28:19 AM »
You find these all the time, but I rarely see them used for anything but vendor-trashing. Part of the reason is that the SR of... 14, or whatever it is, isn't enough to really do much. I understand that's a limitation of the item cost, because I've played w/ the toolset and 16+ really kicks the price up.

Another problem is, these things are only useable by a handful of classes. There's someone now who managed to find some witch-hunter full plate and I'd consider buying it with Gornnus just to have something a little unique (even if it's mostly useless and heavy as sin) but he's a straight priest. And the class limitations don't allow priests for some weird reason. Any idea why the classes restrictions are set up the way they are? Really makes little sense.

Maybe it would be nice to give the Witch-Hunter Armors a little something extra to make them more appealing. Reduction in weight to bring them in line with the smithed armors (like 80% or whatever) might mean people would actually choose to wear them over other armors when they're actually found.

Or, how about this: give them 5 DR to Magical. Make the weight reduction match steel at 80%. That would put a suit of full plate a little above 5000. It would certainly be a heck of a lot more useful than the witch-hunter armor the way it is now. At least it would protect you from some of the more prevalent direct damage spells. The SR on the witch-hunter now doesn't protect you from squat. A 10th level casts spells will still get through like, 80% of the time.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 02:56:49 AM by kenpen »

Countess29

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 03:01:06 AM »
Well it would be nice to see the return of the witch hunters. seems the mages have lived in a time of prosparity and is time to maybe bering them back to the game setting *smiles*

So yes maybe fixing the armour to be more useful for those that will use them as witchhunters would be nice.

Well just some thoughts *smiles* Have a nice day

Mordred

  • Guest
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 03:05:23 AM »
Maybe some antagonize bonus is in order, then perhaps some more draw backs such as concentration penalty or wisdom penalty, to represent the hubris of thinking it will protect against every witch etc.

Helaman

  • What the hell am I doing here?
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 03:13:52 AM »
SR14 has its uses... sure its stopping only 1 in 4 spells (unless the caster has penetration) but as someone who's lived and died by SR rolls I am grateful for the 1 in 4 stopped.

I can't see making in line with smithed armours the way to go... I get the idea that the dev's want to give smithed armours an edge that loot items can't match to stimulate crafter economies etc.

I do think though that stuff like antagonize bonus or maybe + vs saves is good... DR vs magic is bad... charm person is a great anti-witch hunter spell

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Countess29

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 08:38:00 AM »
I do think though that stuff like antagonize bonus or maybe + vs saves is good... DR vs magic is bad... charm person is a great anti-witch hunter spell

*giggles* A spell to stop a witch how cute

Nefensis

  • MIA
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 7171
  • Gaming wench )0(
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 08:43:50 AM »
A great spell to stop a magic user is called a big sword. rawr!

Stela Cojocaru - barovian snake
Crina Ovidiu - barovian guard

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 08:58:45 AM »
Most of the SR items are actually pathetically underpowered.  It's more a 1 in 20, then a 1 in 4 for an SR 14 item.  They could all use a rather serious bump up in effective ability.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

Gonny

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 09:04:40 AM »
Could someone quickly and clearly explain how does SR work so peolpe is aware of it. It's one of the less-known things amongst players.

I'll give  a shoot to explain it, with an example.

Fighter a has sr 14 armor. He fights vs a caster lvl 10 (with at least spell penetration) thus making +2 to lvl for sr purposes.

Caster casts Phantasmal killer on the fighter. Caster has 12 effective caster levels, so he would need to roll a 2 with a d20, to break the sr.

A caster level 11, or same caster with greater spell penetration, would never miss on the spell.
Gonnar Domne - The Good rogue.
Alba - Thewes a pwoblem wegawding witches?
Elenwyd Darletim - Evil and ...evil.
Pardo Datson - In development..

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 09:13:06 AM »
Yeah. Level + 1d20 + feats and other crap. Which basically means SR 14 sucks balls against anyone but the weakest mage. I'd rather see armors with 5 magic DR. At least then, all those magic missile spells would be decently blocked, as well as some other basic junk.

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 09:15:28 AM »
Point is in a DnD game.  SR is supposed to be something that Casters FEAR.  Not something they joke about as they blast someone in Witch Armor into Smithereens.  However a viable alternative to Jacking up all the numbers to reflect given Odds versus our server top heavy caster Corps, Why not allow the various SR items, to Stack.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 09:18:21 AM »
Stacking SR would be decent. Few enough items have it, and most of them are armor. It would certainly give people a reason to actually covet the items. Though, two SRs of 14 and 18 stacking (the two most common SRs out there, on the armors and the rods) would make the SR a bit too strong, I think. The items would have to be increased in rarity significantly I think.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 09:23:09 AM by kenpen »

Delphinidae

  • Phasing in and out of PoTM
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2381
  • My poor wererats get no love.
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 09:24:19 AM »
...except Spell Resistence doesn't stack.

Quote
Spell resistance does not stack -- only the highest SR item or spell counts. Spell resistance (other than that from diamond soul) can be temporarily lowered via the spells Mordenkainen's disjunction, greater spell breach, lesser spell breach and nature's balance.

NWN Wiki


Ongoing Plots
Legacy of Blood
The Eye of the McGraths

Helaman

  • What the hell am I doing here?
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 09:24:38 AM »
I do think though that stuff like antagonize bonus or maybe + vs saves is good... DR vs magic is bad... charm person is a great anti-witch hunter spell

*giggles* A spell to stop a witch how cute


No - to stop a witch hunter - hence the term ANTI witch hunter..

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 09:25:21 AM »
Stacking SR would be decent. Few enough items have it, and most of them are armor. It would certainly give people a reason to actually covet the items.


Witchhunter banded Mail (sr 14), + Lightshell amulet (sr 12), plus that Lightning Rod thing for another 10 or so  SR 36 would be effective I think.  Stacking would be helpful.

There is also that other SR amulet that was obviously designed by someone that Just HATES people that would want something to protect themselves from a caster, since it's like -4 to 12 different stats and yet, gives like SR piddling rating for all the drawback.  THAT item (I forget it's name) Should be worth SR 60 for what you Lose wearing it.

~Rex


Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 09:32:09 AM »
Eh. 36 SR would make you completely immune to all but the most powerful casters. Considering how common the SR objects are to come by, that might be a little bit overkill.

Maybe we should just throw out the money limit as far as SR goes. Give some more special armors SRs of 20-24, and make them only uber drops.

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 09:39:31 AM »
Eh. 36 SR would make you completely immune to all but the most powerful casters. Considering how common the SR objects are to come by, that might be a little bit overkill.

Maybe we should just throw out the money limit as far as SR goes. Give some more special armors SRs of 20-24, and make them only uber drops.

Considering How Common CASTERS are, I don't see the issue.  The Armor, doesn't show up that often and I have yet to see WHERE it drops or if it drops in something heavier then banded mail.  The Amulets, I might find 1, every 2 months or so.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

Delphinidae

  • Phasing in and out of PoTM
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2381
  • My poor wererats get no love.
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 09:44:09 AM »
It drops full plate too. Saw it at Murnu's before the crash. I think (I'd have to check) that the item SR limit is 32, so you can't go up to 36 or higher unless you're a monk with epic skills. Also, PnP and NwN SR doesn't stack. It overlaps.

What can be done to the current witchhunter armors is that if we want to raise the SR without its cost going overboard and still remain in the 4k area, is to have it have negatives. Witch hunter armors have no downsides to them. Add some downsides to them and you can raise the SR above 14.


Ongoing Plots
Legacy of Blood
The Eye of the McGraths

Helaman

  • What the hell am I doing here?
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 10:05:31 AM »
-2 to influence is a good place to start...

Probably -5 UMD as well.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 10:25:40 AM by Helaman »

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 10:13:53 AM »
It drops full plate too. Saw it at Murnu's before the crash. I think (I'd have to check) that the item SR limit is 32, so you can't go up to 36 or higher unless you're a monk with epic skills. Also, PnP and NwN SR doesn't stack. It overlaps.

What can be done to the current witchhunter armors is that if we want to raise the SR without its cost going overboard and still remain in the 4k area, is to have it have negatives. Witch hunter armors have no downsides to them. Add some downsides to them and you can raise the SR above 14.

It has a negative.  It's called Ineffectiveness.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

Delphinidae

  • Phasing in and out of PoTM
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2381
  • My poor wererats get no love.
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 10:21:31 AM »
No, I mean a stat negative. It's basically a regular armor with SR. Even if the armor is ineffective, it's still a plus compared to regular armor. If you want it to be effective, you need to give it negatives like skill, stats or damage vulnerabilities.


Ongoing Plots
Legacy of Blood
The Eye of the McGraths

HellsPanda

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6603
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 10:30:29 AM »
a negative armour mod, or a damage vulnarability too the 3 physical damages perhaps?

Helaman

  • What the hell am I doing here?
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 10:35:33 AM »
Neg AC is the wrong place to go...

A +10% gain in wieght, mild hit to influence and a BIG hit to UMD would enable it to go to SR 18... which is when it starts getting useful

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Delphinidae

  • Phasing in and out of PoTM
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2381
  • My poor wererats get no love.
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 10:37:53 AM »
Anyway, SR 14 gives the full plate item a 2000+ value. You raise it to 16 and it's in the 5k range, something that would drop rarely. Make it SR 18 and it's in the 9k range and it will never drop. A -2 influence would hardly drop the price of an SR 18 full plate. Meaning it has to be something a bit more nasty than just influence.

If we follow Jerv's suggestion and make a AC -2 drop + the influence, the SR 18 full plate drops to 6k. Now being nasty and considering it's a witch hunting armor, meant against mages, not an armor you'd use for front line combat, but against witches if you add 25% dmg vulnerability against slashing, piercing and blungeoning... the armor drops to 4259. Right in the range of dropable things.

And if we do it like you suggest, Helaman, armor is at 7777. It will never drop.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 10:39:52 AM by Delphinidae »


Ongoing Plots
Legacy of Blood
The Eye of the McGraths

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 10:48:50 AM »
Anyway, SR 14 gives the full plate item a 2000+ value. You raise it to 16 and it's in the 5k range, something that would drop rarely. Make it SR 18 and it's in the 9k range and it will never drop. A -2 influence would hardly drop the price of an SR 18 full plate. Meaning it has to be something a bit more nasty than just influence.

If we follow Jerv's suggestion and make a AC -2 drop + the influence, the SR 18 full plate drops to 6k. Now being nasty and considering it's a witch hunting armor, meant against mages, not an armor you'd use for front line combat, but against witches if you add 25% dmg vulnerability against slashing, piercing and blungeoning... the armor drops to 4259. Right in the range of dropable things.

And if we do it like you suggest, Helaman, armor is at 7777. It will never drop.

Sounds like that's More of an Issue of a Bad Loot Drop system.  As for that Vulnerability.  What's an Umber Hulks beat down damage or that tensors thingie equate to?  Some NON CASTER favoring Items are needed to balance out a lot of issues and if it's because of a LOOT system that favors people that don't NEED loot in order to advance, then that system needs to be changed.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

failed.bard

  • Guest
Re: Items - Witch-hunter Armors
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 10:54:00 AM »
As I understand the loot system, there's a set amount of GP value that will drop inside a chest based on the loot spawn, and if the item value is too high the spawns will never get high enough to drop that item.  The system itself isn't the problem, it's designed to ensure you don't have uber items dropping in places that should have rusty items, umbrellas, and the like.

  Rex is right, though.  SR with damage resistance as a penalty doesn't work because almost every caster out there that can cast 6th level spells has tensers.