Spells - Polymorph self changes

[Wids]

Imo having just creatures with the dispell ability is a bit odd. I mean they are just there then to dispell mages, which would be a total ooc factor.

1)  The vampires dwelling beneath Mount Baratak's foothills keep getting their numbers soundly decimated by invading spellcasters, over and over again, night after night.

2)  Vowing to do something to counter this grave and persistent threat, a council of vampire elders retreats to their libraries, where they spend many nights perusing tomes of lore and experimenting with avenues of magic not traditional to their bloodlines.

3)  Soon, freshly trained Vampire Abjurers begin to emerge from the vampires' forgotten libraries, fully versed in magicks to ward against or dispel enemy wizardry and fully prepared to neutralize the looming threat posed by the mortal mages.

How would such an evolution be OOC? 

[Wids]

An empty cocoon.

I want THIS.  Including the cocoon Component.

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

Today: The devs get back to work and finally give Rex his wizards-need-spell-components system.

Tomorrow: All the mage players (except Rex) dump their wizards and start playing sorcerers.

The dedicated warrior-type players and all two of the dedicated rogue-type players don't notice.

[kenpen]

If it's too uber, the stats on the monsters you can become could always be reduced a little, as the regeneration, and the duration could be left alone.

It would be nice to have the spell work more like PnP. The fun part of polymorph was always the interesting things you could become, rather than just using it to slaughter things.

And having more shapes would be really nice. It would be more useful to use it to spy if you could turn into a bird, or an animal, or something else. Pixies are good, but they're still just a bit too obtrusive.

[Rex]

An empty cocoon.

I want THIS.  Including the cocoon Component.

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

Today: The devs get back to work and finally give Rex his wizards-need-spell-components system.

Tomorrow: All the mage players (except Rex) dump their wizards and start playing sorcerers.

The dedicated warrior-type players and all two of the dedicated rogue-type players don't notice.

Sorcerers Still Require Components.  It's Spell Books, Selection and Preparation that they do not Require.  Dedicated Warriors and Rogues would be besieged by now Balanced Spell Casters to tag along with them and provide the Martial Wall to stand behind.  The unstoppable Abusive Punching Bag tactic, goes by the wayside as it is replaced by true DnD ideology and teamwork.

Toss this in while we're at it: If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer's experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiars demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs..  Takes care of that pesky Tanking with your Familiar or Uber buffed player base slaughtering mega level panther familiar issues as well.

~Rex

[Gonny]

You LOSE, any supernatural abilities of your Own at the time you shape shift.  You ONLY, get what the Form gives you.  That means when you Uber buff, cast all your support invisowhatzit acid sheath pile of spells, and then Shape Shift into an iron Golem, the Spells go POOF!

That sounds great! I think that could be implemented aswell. Perhaps nerf the shifted creatures abilities and combine it with the lose of buffs.

that sounds most fair thing to do. imo

Just a touhght. If a mage shifts, and there's another cleric/mage/bard, can it buff the mage after shift?

[Rex]

You LOSE, any supernatural abilities of your Own at the time you shape shift.  You ONLY, get what the Form gives you.  That means when you Uber buff, cast all your support invisowhatzit acid sheath pile of spells, and then Shape Shift into an iron Golem, the Spells go POOF!

That sounds great! I think that could be implemented aswell. Perhaps nerf the shifted creatures abilities and combine it with the lose of buffs.

that sounds most fair thing to do. imo

Just a touhght. If a mage shifts, and there's another cleric/mage/bard, can it buff the mage after shift?

Yes since the spells are buffing the NEW shape, not the old one.  Like I said.  Real Teamwork.

~Rex

[Gonny]

I think we found a decent way to deal with it then. Maybe we should make a poll or something? It'll probably will the best choice that would nerf the spell considerably and still make it worth using.

[tzaeru]

Mmh, I liked it better when I could easily and without risk get all the XP I needed.

Now I'm going to have to cast fireballs and Horrid Wilthing hasted, apparently - means I can kill less uber monsters per rest.  Altough the ability to do that has as well been greatly recuded with the tunnel and turning heavy dungeon design (and in places where there are lots of open areas, such as Demonologist temple, the critters do slow and knockdown bolts or similar).

But the suggestions given would be a lot better than keep the spell as nerfed as now.

[Ric]

The Zombie form isn't even effected by this nerf, power-game wise.  Casters can still do the Sheath - Ethreal visage - Zombie combination.  The only difference now is that their zombie form will wear out at the same time as the other two spells.

My suggestion (Which was the same denied suggestion I posted about over 2 years ago when summons were nerfed to round/level) -> Raise the duration based on spell-focus feats.

In other words, if you want your polymorph/shapechange spells to last longer, take Greater Spell Focus Transmutation in order to achieve turn/level.  I suggested the same thing for summons with taking Greater Spell Focus Conjuration to make all the Summon Creature and Planar spells go to turn/level.  And then of course, Greater Spell Focus Necromancy for the undead-raising spells.

Mages get a lot of feats, so that would give them something to spend them on over things that most mage power-build soloers have:  Greater skill focus open lock, greater skill focus disable trap.

[tzaeru]

The Zombie form isn't even effected by this nerf, power-game wise.  Casters can still do the Sheath - Ethreal visage - Zombie combination.  The only difference now is that their zombie form will wear out at the same time as the other two spells.

Yay, excellent! \o/

[Wids]

An empty cocoon.

I want THIS.  Including the cocoon Component.

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

Today: The devs get back to work and finally give Rex his wizards-need-spell-components system.

Tomorrow: All the mage players (except Rex) dump their wizards and start playing sorcerers.

The dedicated warrior-type players and all two of the dedicated rogue-type players don't notice.

Sorcerers Still Require Components.  It's Spell Books, Selection and Preparation that they do not Require.  Dedicated Warriors and Rogues would be besieged by now Balanced Spell Casters to tag along with them and provide the Martial Wall to stand behind.  The unstoppable Abusive Punching Bag tactic, goes by the wayside as it is replaced by true DnD ideology and teamwork.

Correction:  Tomorrow, all the mage players dump their wizards and sorcerers and start playing clerics and druids.  The bard players start to focus more on their thiefy abilities, and all the warrior types get a little annoyed by all the Blessed, Prayered, Claritied, Divine Powered, Bull/Owl-buffed clerics throwing Blade Barriers all over the place.  Meanwhile, sales in holy symbols increase slightly.

On the other hand, Raise Dead becomes more plentiful, and fewer people are seen crawling back to the churches with corpses slung over their shoulders and ghosts following them....

Okay, sign me up for spell components too. 

Oh, wait...Raise Dead eats diamonds, which practically don't exist on this server.

Crap. 

[DarkWyvern]

Diamonds?

*cough*Houlgraves*Cough* 

[Wids]

Diamonds?

*cough*Houlgraves*Cough* 

But they're so bloody expensive there...far more costly than Raise Dead's minimum 500-Gold value. 

Hmmm.  Maybe that's why no one ever finds diamonds among all the dungeon loot.  Monsters can't afford them either. 

[Delphinidae]

Okay, stay on topic.

[fulkren]

i think the main concern from reading the posts in this thread, is that by Nerfing the Duration of the spell you effectively Hampered both the Mechanical function of the Spell, and its Roleplaying value.

i for one do not care about the mechanical side. as i was going to take the spell for RP Purposes. but wouldn't it make more sence to Nerf the Ability's of the creatures dramatically to fit the setting?  but then perhaps increase the duration? this way it would still balance the Mechanical side to it and give us another great Roleplaying tool..

i for one would not care if the troll had 0 regen or the zombie had 0 soak. i just wanted it for RP purposes.

anyway thats my Opinion on the subject

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

If we match the PnP rules in statistics, we are likely also going to make the duration as per the PnP rules. I appreciate the direction this discussion has been going - atleast the essence of it. We're discussing the suggestions posted on the development board. If we can turn the emphasis of the spell more toward roleplay and less toward building a melee-brute, it does sound like a good compromise.

[Bad_Bud]

The nerf doesn't serve its purpose anyway.  It's supposed to keep us from tanking with damage shields?

We can still do that, and I never kept the polymorph up after the shield was down anyway.  I would always put up a new shield and re-morph.

The duration is also long enough that I still use troll form to regenerate all of my health.

[failed.bard]

It does prevent Wilhelm from using pixie form to give neck rubs though.  The spell has fantastic RP potential, same as wildshape does for druids.  Get rid of the zombies DR, it doesn't make sense that it has it anyways, and drop troll form entirely.  I'd really like to see a sub-radial menu the let you polymorph into the other races, and I'd quite happily take that over troll form, even if you couldn't cast still.

[Countess29]

Well I cant polymorph myself with any of my charaters... But I have seen some use it for pure rp reasons and I think it was a wonderful thing and enjoyed. Some good some scared the poo out of me

[kenpen]

I'd kill to be able to polymorph into a human. It would make being sneaky so much easier.

[Nevoh]

I have an idea.

Shapechange is a Transmutation spell, so award players who take Transmutation focus with a longer duration.

This not only makes the school stand a fighting chance against other schools that seem to rule the playing field, (Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy) but it also fixes the problem in my eyes.

[mayvind]

Oki got back from holiday, tried the new nerf ... and have to say it. not great, try to scare people with dragon shape and bam middle of sentence i back again as my evilself.

The spell is useful in Combat, but no longer useful in Roleplaying. The nerfing duration is not great solution just make it one of those spell that is less popular and waste of spell slots.

For me i have seen many changing in Mage spells and i have endured them all, but polymorph and Shapechanging spell are one of my favorite spells seeing them nerfing like this making playing mage less fun and less unique.

I dont think the spell was imbalance at all it was fun and cool spell, and enrich imagination, now first thing on my mind when i shapeshifted is that i have to kill that Threat PC quickly before my spell expired rather then try to RP it out. 

[Rex]

Book version lasts 1 minute per level.  What did it get reduced to?

~Rex

[mayvind]

Book version lasts 1 minute per level.  What did it get reduced to?

~Rex

1 turn + 1 round per level ......... I think, so with Yves level 18, it lasted 2 min 48 sec, So enough for me to kill quickly under haste, but not enough for me to writte down some cool Emote and roll some cools moves.

[Ric]

From what I understand, the major reason it got nerfed was becuase certain forms (the regen ones in particular) were too uber, but it could have easily been tweaked to be less over-powering, mechanics-wise.