Spells - Polymorph self changes

[shadymerchant]

This was a great spell, much used, with one caveat. One aspect of one form was too strong, that being the troll regen. I don't understand why rather than fix that, the whole spell is nerfed. At level 13 wizard, with it extended, it lasts barely long enough to cross a dungeon floor while hasted.

This was a spell I used, more than any other spell, for roleplaying.

I'd greatly like to see this spell returned to its duration, while actually fixing what was problematic rather than taking the nuke approach.

[Aghila]

An easy fix would be lowering regeneration to 1 hp/round. This way you can still use the troll for to regen while you're not fighting, but is not so uber in combat.

[Rex]

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level:    Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, M
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Touch
Target:    Willing living creature touched
Duration:    1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component

An empty cocoon.

I want THIS.  Including the cocoon Component.

~Rex

[JayeAeotiv]

I want THIS.  Including the cocoon Component.

Looks good to me, but one caveat. According to the Player's Handbook, a wizard is assumed to have the necessary spell components as long has he/she has a spell component pouch in his/her inventory.  The exception is when a spell component has a price listed next to it.  In that case, the wizard must actually obtain the component.

[Rex]

I want THIS.  Including the cocoon Component.

Looks good to me, but one caveat. According to the Player's Handbook, a wizard is assumed to have the necessary spell components as long has he/she has a spell component pouch in his/her inventory.  The exception is when a spell component has a price listed next to it.  In that case, the wizard must actually obtain the component.

Yep.  Fine with that.  In the end though I think Adjusting the spell to be Like the Book.  MUCH like what has been done with and in the name of other spells and situations (Undeath to Death for example).

~Rex

[Gonny]

Can anyone actually explain me the reason of both, polymorph and shapechange duration nerf? I don't see anyone happy with it.

 Polymorph: the spell was good, a good safeboat for most casters. It wasn't by any means overpowered, but the troll form maybe for it's 5 regen...which actually isn't that much considering the amount of damage the critters around these lands deal. With the new rest system, a mage , lets say, level 8, can only kill by himself around 3 werewolves, maybe 5 if he's lucky and they are together and he can kick two fireballs. Basically means those low level mages with few spell slots are 5 min worthy.
If the regen was too uber, you could have lowered it, maybe to 3regen/round maybe 2...
Is not a powerfull spell, yet it's only lvl 4th.

Shapechange: As I understand it, level 9th spells are the-maximal- power a character can achieve. Spells are meant to be and actually are the most powerfull weapon/hability for any kind of char. We are talking about the lvl 9th spells, which only a -few- mages can get.
Now you made a lvl 9th spell so useless, I'd rather use ray of frost than shapechange. Say Bye-bye to the RP with forms. My wiz lvl 17 can only keep shapeshifted for 2min 40 sec....useless. And if you think the spell is overpowered, because slaad has nice ac, or golem has inmunity to crits...the solution is fairly easy. Make harder enemies.
Today I fought a couple of Giant Brocken Ones (which I had never seen), a huge iron golem, and an inmense iron golem (which had around 39ab...) i nearly died there. (however i thank DM for the challenge).

You should asume it. Casters are meant to be the most powerfull class, when prepared.

[Bad_Bud]

- Revised the duration of the shapechange spell experimentally to obtain better balance.

I assume this was not meant to be a permanent change, but rather an attempt to gain a response to a balancing change in duration.  I'm not about to get panicked over this.  I'd say they have their feedback now, and they will probably give it a longer duration.

[EO]

And if you think the spell is overpowered, because slaad has nice ac, or golem has inmunity to crits...the solution is fairly easy. Make harder enemies.

That's a poor way of handling things. If we buff monsters, it will affect all classes and spells, not just the problematic ones. So to fix two problematic spells, you end up gimping everyone whilst at the same time failing to actually fix the spells since they remain as unbalanced as they were, just a bit less effective against monsters.

So obviously, that's not a solution. Instead, we looked at it in comparison to the level of magic we have here. NwN was designed for a high magic setting where fighters have +20AC gear, +5 weapons, ridiculous uber items, but our server isn't. We considered individually altering each form, but that would be a work of guessing and constant rebalancing of the shapes, something that ultimately would likely lead down a spiral of nerfing.

So, instead, we shortened the duration. Those spells are not useless, people just aren't used yet to their new form. That's why, as with most changes, we prefer waiting at least some weeks to see how they have truly affected the gameplay and not to base ourselves on the initial outcry.

[Nefensis]

I dont see how lowering the duration does any actual difference, tweak the spell's power maybe but the duration only creates an irritation and people will simply lose the spell at next lvl and it might even be the goal of this change. Too often i saw wizards use the zombie shape/stoneskin/acid sheath to level off a hoard of monsters, that is what need to be tweaked.

[kenpen]

The duration stinks. If this fix stays around, sorcerers and wizards need to be able to relevel and take another spell, as any real systems effectiveness of the polymorph has been removed. No true seeing for the umberhulk. Such a short duration for the troll regeneration that it might as well not even be included. Zombie-form is only good for smacking a bunch of acid sheaths on top of, and letting yourself be hit, which still isn't terribly good unless you have ethereal visage, and the pixie is just there for adding a few points to lockpick. Any strength bashing-goodness was negated by the fact you can sneeze hard on a chest and break everything inside.

The duration also makes any RP with the form next to useless, since it takes everyone a lifetime to type and RP that would take 10 minutes in "reality" ends up taking fourty minutes, and you'll keep getting popped out of your form and have to keep asking people if they can retcon the scene to a reasonable amount.

Troll form was about the only thing good about polymorph, and even with it half the sorcerers I ever saw still ended up dying half the time.

Hell. Let's just remove casters altogether. Might as well. It's been moving towards that.

[shadymerchant]

And if you think the spell is overpowered, because slaad has nice ac, or golem has inmunity to crits...the solution is fairly easy. Make harder enemies.

That's a poor way of handling things. If we buff monsters, it will affect all classes and spells, not just the problematic ones. So to fix two problematic spells, you end up gimping everyone whilst at the same time failing to actually fix the spells since they remain as unbalanced as they were, just a bit less effective against monsters.

So obviously, that's not a solution. Instead, we looked at it in comparison to the level of magic we have here. NwN was designed for a high magic setting where fighters have +20AC gear, +5 weapons, ridiculous uber items, but our server isn't. We considered individually altering each form, but that would be a work of guessing and constant rebalancing of the shapes, something that ultimately would likely lead down a spiral of nerfing.

So, instead, we shortened the duration. Those spells are not useless, people just aren't used yet to their new form. That's why, as with most changes, we prefer waiting at least some weeks to see how they have truly affected the gameplay and not to base ourselves on the initial outcry.

You're saying actually balancing the spell is too much work, so the crew would rather just severely nerf it and call it a day. Troll regen was the problem. Not pixie, not umberhulk, not spider, and not even zombie. This was a great spell for roleplaying. I used zombie form , which even then required multiple rests and extended forms, to nearly convince a player he was in Ladul. I've snuck into the jails and doggedly stuck to prisoners, relaying information while guards remained oblivious. I've used umberhulk as a means of really showing off a mages power and strength, without actually having to pvp.

But yeah, let's just get rid of all of that because one form is used too much in dungeons

I don't think that's very fair or balanced.

[kenpen]

To make troll effective in dungeons, you still had to layer it with a ton of other junk. Otherwise, no +1-+3 to hits (without ghostly visage or stoneskin) and you still had to sit there and endlessly wait around to regenerate. It was still a pain. It was basically only good for sitting there and healing in between fights. My normal human form was better for EVERYTHING except healing, and picking the occasional lock in pixie where I needed a few more points. Or wanted to fly somewhere unreachable, which was seldom. I never went into zombie form, which was almost useless without ethereal visage and acid sheath. Spider form was a cruel joke and only fun for RP purposes. Umber hulk wasn't better than troll form, and the only reason I ever bothered was for a freak factor or to RP "tunneling" somewhere which might as well have been useless without a DM present, and is certainly pointless with the duration as it is now.

I understand that polymorph was one of the most useful spells you could get as a wizard/sorcerer just for the regeneration, and for that reason (or someone's reasoning) it had to be nerfed. But why not just move the regeneration down to 3 points or something, and leave the duration alone? As it is, the duration makes the spell completely useless except in the most specific circumstances. And, no, it's not some change people will have to adjust to. People are just going to drop this spell, and if the duration doesn't change, I'm going to ask for a relevel just to take something more useful or entertaining. Two and a half minutes isn't useful or interesting for combat, RP, or anything else.

[Kaspar]

I'd have to agree with everybody else. I personally think this spell change should have been discussed before the change was put in.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I'd have to agree with everybody else. I personally think this spell change should have been discussed before the change was put in.

The uproar is always the same no matter what, but it becomes harder to experiment with if it's purely speculative - e.g. we never get to try it out. Like most nerfs, it gets shot down instantly, consequently causing much more suspicion of us developers being completely careless of the in game experience if we try it out none the less. Of course we aren't careless, and we never will be - I don't recall us ever keeping a nerf or system mechanic that the general community ultimately expressed being displeased with - so let's try to remain calm and sober here, and take it slowly, building up the argumentation rationally.

As mentioned, we'd prefer balancing the shapes out, but it's complex. The shapes are obviously balanced for a more high level gear campaign, but there's other impacts of it that I find problematic. In effect, it allows the casters to act as healer by the troll form and meat-shield by the other shapes, lessening the need for a composed party, since this meat-shield can buff up itself, effectively becoming a one man army. I've noticed that most people that solo high level dungeon are actually people that use polymorph spells.

However, as written, it's an experimental update.

A spell component system would be great, and would more easily allow us to balance these things out - but it has a lot of performance considerations needing to be taking into account as well as a massive implementation work needing to be done.

I could also see the point in matching the rules on only providing the special attacks, though I'd consider that nerf even more radical than the current, and the question becomes whether the spell would be usable at all. Well, at least for other things than roleplay purposes.

[Aghila]

I think most people that solo high level dungeon are clerics? Who get highest ab, highest ac due spells, highest sr, highest dmg, tones of healing, etc. But we're not here to speak about clerics. Right.

And if you think the spell is overpowered, because slaad has nice ac, or golem has inmunity to crits...the solution is fairly easy. Make harder enemies.

That's a poor way of handling things. If we buff monsters, it will affect all classes and spells, not just the problematic ones. So to fix two problematic spells, you end up gimping everyone whilst at the same time failing to actually fix the spells since they remain as unbalanced as they were, just a bit less effective against monsters.

I don't see how making areas that really require of more than one character (power-wise) would be problematic. Give some random creatures the ability to dispell. I've been down in the Pit fiends General lair and I got owned by some Corguns cause they kept spamming dispell, so much, that they striped my main buffs and even my shapechange. Then i just got killed (luckily I stoped bleeding )

[DM Macabre]

Imo having just creatures with the dispell ability is a bit odd. I mean they are just there then to dispell mages, which would be a total ooc factor. I think the changes from the Developers are good ones to balance the server more out. Even though spellcasters are meant to be the most powerful classes I don't think a single player is meant to waste Zalaph or any other bigger creature within 5 seconds and over and over and over again. 2min and 40 seconds can be a really long time in NWN.

And as Soren stated the polymorph spells were originally made refering to a lot of different items than we have them available on POTM. Imo the changes are fair and good. Try it out for some weeks and then give your feedback. Changes always have different aspects for different players. Non-spellcasters will be lifted up a bit, spell-casters put a bit down. Nevertheless spellcasters still remain the most powerfull classes. Having a greater challenge through spell-nerfs is not the worst thing to have. It can also lead to new roleplay situations and to a need to think of new tactics or even better to a motivation to hook up with other player characters with different skills and talents.

[Nefensis]

Im not too keen on adding a spell component system, most pnp DM usually allow that  the party's mage always has on him whatever the shmeg he needs for his spell unless it's worth over a certain value (like a resurrection diamond etc).  We already have enough flowers to gather to get a potion of cure moderate wounds, i think i'd stop playing my mage altogether if i had to start gathering dust and feathers for 3 days prior to any dungeonning.

As for what Soren says, the spell in itself wasn't the problem, the soloers are. Fix the soloers then. No matter what you do to this server, if someone wants to go off and solo a dungeon, they will. Unless you put a OOC stop to it, they will keep finding ways around it.  Meanwhile everyone else gets the consequences of a small group of people that in all honesty, don't cause that much of an issue as far as im concerned. Let them solo, if a DM has enough time to study their soloing techniques, they have enough time to spawn a big beasty on top of them that'll make them run away from the dungeon, IC actions.

[DM Shadowspawn]

The spell is the problem. really my thoughts are it's not polymorph but shape shift. Anything that changes a person into an iron golem with DR +5, 40 ac, immune to crits, sneak attack, and stats of near 40 str, near 20 dex and near 30 con with one spell. Add on a few spells as all wizards do so 50% conceal, acid sheath, haste, immune to death spells, etc, etc, etc. Shape change has been used in the past to PvP 90% of the server at once with success. It's overwhelming by server standards. 

Simple solution is lvl cap as has been discussed in the past but this harms everyone. Alternatively decrease spell durations (which has been done), modify the specific forms so not as powerful or per the post Rex made have it so the shapes "does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities." So you look like that troll/pixie/iron golem/slaad in appearance only.

[Nefensis]

so the shapes "does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities." So you look like that troll/pixie/iron golem/slaad in appearance only.

The NWN spell was created to help mages during the single player campaign , the pnp spell has a completly different use, which cannot be accomplished with 1) the nwn engine 2) with the current spell duration. You can't try and fix something with something inappropriate. It was as balanced to begin with as it gets.

I've noticed that most people that solo high level dungeon are actually people that use polymorph spells.

This is the situation that the nerf of the spell is trying to fix, but again i don't think the nerf will fix this.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

IAs for what Soren says, the spell in itself wasn't the problem, the soloers are. Fix the soloers then. No matter what you do to this server, if someone wants to go off and solo a dungeon, they will. Unless you put a OOC stop to it, they will keep finding ways around it.  Meanwhile everyone else gets the consequences of a small group of people that in all honesty, don't cause that much of an issue as far as im concerned. Let them solo, if a DM has enough time to study their soloing techniques, they have enough time to spawn a big beasty on top of them that'll make them run away from the dungeon, IC actions.

What's IC about dumping a big beasty on top of them for soloing? I'm sorry if you don't feel us DMs use our time effectively enough though.

I wasn't saying that soloers necessarily are a problem - we generally don't want to be judging soloers. The point is to encourage partying. We usually do this by giving it advantage to have a diverse group. The polymorph spell conflicts with that.

...

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

so the shapes "does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities." So you look like that troll/pixie/iron golem/slaad in appearance only.

The NWN spell was created to help mages during the single player campaign , the pnp spell has a completly different use, which cannot be accomplished with 1) the nwn engine 2) with the current spell duration. You can't try and fix something with something inappropriate. It was as balanced to begin with as it gets.

I've noticed that most people that solo high level dungeon are actually people that use polymorph spells.

This is the situation that the nerf of the spell is trying to fix, but again i don't think the nerf will fix this.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but it helps tremendously when trying to take part in a discussion if you argue the reason for your opinion up against the ongoing argumentation. Why do you think it was as balanced as it gets before? Why don't you see the points presented as having merit?

[DM Shadowspawn]

...

I think that's my best quote ever! Three dots. Made me 

But back on topic...

so the shapes "does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities." So you look like that troll/pixie/iron golem/slaad in appearance only.

The NWN spell was created to help mages during the single player campaign , the pnp spell has a completely different use, which cannot be accomplished with 1) the nwn engine 2) with the current spell duration. You can't try and fix something with something inappropriate. It was as balanced to begin with as it gets.

The spell in NWN is appropriate for soloing single player games. Agreed. But POTM isn't the single player game nor is the magic item, creatures so on and so forth set up to be either on this server. In short the spells are imbalanced.

The question really is what is the best way to balance the spells? If you notice the Dev team is willing to listen. Constructive feedback such as what Rex gave for the PnP rules is appreciated and listened to.

Also I agree with Soren I don't have time to dump a single monster or greater dispelling creatures on a single player. 

[Rex]

If you make the spell operate like it does from the book, you don't get all the "super powers"" of the creature anyway.  You get the stats, and the HD, AC and such.  No Confusion gaze no true seeing no regen etc etc etc etc.......that stuff, is all in the field of the Shapechange spell.

Now, if the Casters can't handle a minor Iota of what the Fighter types have to deal with constantly, I say tough cookies.  The Truth is, it IS out of Whack, especially since as a Fighter I certainly haven't seen any +2 weapons out there for me, but the kernel of the entire argument now is this (Oh and for the people out there, YES I still want Spell Components).

It's not the Duration that's really the issue.  It's that they Can't Solo unless they can keep the old duration.

Polymorph should be the Shape.  Just like the book spell.  You get the Stats, and the AC, the heal hitpoints like a Rest and the hitpoint Boost per the Shape.  THAT's a pretty good darn chunk of ability for a Mid Level Spell, Umber Hulks and Trolls got some pretty good Physical stats even Without their "super powers".

Shape Change, IS the power spell.  It's 9th level it should provide serious power.

Shapechange
Transmutation
Level:    Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Personal
Target:    You
Duration:    10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
Focus

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

Now if we look at that, It's a good spell as a 9th level spell should be.  It's component is a Focus, something that isn't destroyed upon casting and could easily be something incorporated into a crafting system to make it.  The Duration is 10 minutes per level.  It also comes with a WEAKNESS, that is not in the NwN version.

You LOSE, any supernatural abilities of your Own at the time you shape shift.  You ONLY, get what the Form gives you.  That means when you Uber buff, cast all your support invisowhatzit acid sheath pile of spells, and then Shape Shift into an iron Golem, the Spells go POOF!

The duration for Polymorph for example is 1 minute per level.  1 minute per level  and a cocoon that would come under the *component bag* option.  Poof for 1 minute per level you got stats and AC exceeding any equivalent fighter.  Shape Change is a 1500 gp component that isn't mulched, and for 10 minutes per level, you get a Creature form and all that creatures abilities (granted you lose anything else you stacked on top of it before you shifted shape), still, both spells retain Power, considerable power, but Acquire Balance.

Going by the book bring the playing field more into balance with not only the other classes of the game but with the Setting.  Other spells got the Axe for similar reasons and they've been more then workable.  Only reason this ones getting noisy is it curtails Caster Soloing, Caster Invulnerability, Total Caster Superiority, Caster Exponential Power Creep once that spell is gained, and Caster Stomping the Player Base into the Mud. 

~Rex

[Nefensis]

If the spell is too powerful in itself, i'd rather see a larger selection of *useless* shapes used for roleplay with a decent duration on it. The suggestion was raised before but because it would be too demanding from the dev team, the duration was nerfed. We can't win it seems.

[DM Macabre]

You LOSE, any supernatural abilities of your Own at the time you shape shift.  You ONLY, get what the Form gives you.  That means when you Uber buff, cast all your support invisowhatzit acid sheath pile of spells, and then Shape Shift into an iron Golem, the Spells go POOF!

That sounds great! I think that could be implemented aswell. Perhaps nerf the shifted creatures abilities and combine it with the lose of buffs.