Question - Hide Skill in a well lit room

[Grieyls]

Recently my main character got captured and in one of his attempts to escape he cast Improved Invisibility in the hopes he could just walk out the cell quietly and make his way to freedom. Needless to say this didn't work but that's beside the point. The thing was my character stood by the cell door while invisible but the guard could still see him, I was told by the DM running the encounter at the time that if the guard could see me then he could see me. I have to admit this perplexed me as my first thought was I'm invisible and standing still not making a noise, how is this possible? I'm sure it was because there was a plot reason for it but still... In any case my understanding was that when another player see's your avie even though it is invisible its not that they "see" them but can sense they are there via their sense of hearing and or smell. That guard must have had exceptionally good hearing to know my character was standing near the cell door I had concluded to myself in that particular incident.

Now go back a few more days and my main was in the lady's rest where another assassin wannabe was trying to sneak up on all the patrons using his hide skill. He was rolling pretty high yes but the thing was the Lady's rest is well lit. So well lit in fact that there is no shady spots to speak of to hide in unless he was crouching under a table, this was never indicated. Though he did say he was keeping to the corners, but still even those corners were well lit. We all had to play it that he was well hidden, didn't want to stir that trouble pot by arguing the case but it seems odd to me that a character who use's the hide skill can virtually vanish from site in a well lit room with everyone staring in his direction yet when one casts invisibility in a dark dank cell he is still seen. This to me makes no sense at all.

What I'm getting at is the balance of power between the two, one is using the environment around you to hide the other makes you vanish all together. Yet it would seem that using the environment around you is all the more effective, why would anybody bother casting a spell to vanish from site then? What's the use of it? So the question is are we allowed to add bonuses to our spot rolls to detect someone attempting to hide in a well lit room or does such a situation negate that skill all together? In my mind it negates it as there is no where to hide in the first place.

[PinkTarantula]

As far as I know, the server approach has always been - if you can't see someone on your screen, your character can't either.  If you can see someone on your screen, so can your character.

[Grieyls]

Can I have a DEV or a DM confirm that then so that the next time I can say it is in fact a server rule instead of getting in an arguement over someone whining... "Well my hide roll was so high go...." You get what I mean right?

[Nefensis]

if on top of being invisible you switched to stealth and rolled hide, i would say the opponent would have to roll a spot (depending on the situation, but year, the magic isnt perfect, if you come too close to someone, you will be somewhat visible

[failed.bard]

If a person is visible on the screen, but see through, generally it means you can hear them but not see them.  Exceptions being for the displacement portion of imp. invisibility, empty body, and things like that.  If you're invisible and are trying to RP sneaking, roll a [move silently] against their [listen], since you automatically succeed at hiding when invisible.

[Axel]

If you're invisible and are trying to RP sneaking, roll a [move silently] against their [listen], ...

No need for that. The game engine automatically does it for you.

[Nefensis]

If you're invisible and are trying to RP sneaking, roll a [move silently] against their [listen], ...

No need for that. The game engine automatically does it for you.

You mean if they switch to stealth mode? Yes it does, has the somewhat effect of hide in plain sight.

[Helaman]

Yeah - sometimes guards and other NPC/PCs can 'hear' or detect invis or hidden pcs with a really good spot or listen roll... it happens.

Also with ROLL playing, you don't have to go along with it if its retarded...

Good example of hide... Character sitting quietly in the back of the Ladies... [roll hide] [40]... thats good for you aren't likely to notice him... hes got the chair pulled away from the table etc... he sort of blends in. I'd buy that from the player.

Same location... instead of hugging walls etc the player just walks straight up to you and pulls a big # out of his backside and then tries to explain how he crossed half an empty well let bar when you are sitting facing him without notice? Fail.

Actually Stealthing so the machine can crunch the math? thats another matter - I hate the machine but thats all we got... its at least impartial... if that same PC stealth mode enters the rest and walks up to me and I still don't see them? Well - thats cool... I gotta assume the person waited  til I was distracted then moved some then froze etc etc to get where they are...

Best RP stealth I ever heard of? An unnamed PC stalking his quarry accross half the server - combining rolls and computer stealth mode to eventually come out of nowhere to drop their foe. A DM watched most of it.

[JipK]

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=7273.msg75471#msg75471

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=8005.msg85112#msg85112

Two other threads about the topic seeing invisible creatures. No real conclusion can be made out either of these. Neither can you find anything about it in the server rules. Makes me wonder why there hasn't been made a clear rule/statement on this, since it's an issue that pops up every now and then.

It's clear through the game mechanics you can't actually see a transparent invisible character standing next to you, but just hear it:
When you enter stealth mode while invisible you'll only have to roll a move silently check, no hide check. When you enter stealth mode while invisible and standing next to another PC you disappear (if you beat his listen roll) from his screen, and you can only hide from other creatures while not being in their line of sight.

Hence, "spotting" an invisible character could fall under the no-cheesing rule, since there are no other rulings on the subject:

- No "Cheesing": "Cheesing" is the act of playing your character as if they have an ability or feat which the NWN engine would not otherwise allow them to have. "Cheesing" could also mean playing your character as being a race, class or otherwise that isn't applied to your character through the game. An example could be playing out a character as a vampire even if the character is not setup to be that.

But then on the other hand, some one could have their own interpretation on the issue, and go with that due to there not being clear rules about the subject, but I personally prefer following the game mechanics to avoid any confusion.

As for hide, the way NWN is built practically doesn't allow stealth to be RPed properly (transitions, people looking other ways, distracted people etc.). By actually using stealth you are circumventing all of this, since you'd just be unseen no matter where or what. This can sometimes cause for awkward situations realism wise, but since the game engine is limited, you can do little to just follow that. Generally, when in doubt, follow the way the game engine handles it, unless stated otherwise (An example of this is Shadow Dancers only being allowed to use HiPS in shadows, while the game engine allows them to use it everywhere).

[EO]

What I'm getting at is the balance of power between the two, one is using the environment around you to hide the other makes you vanish all together. Yet it would seem that using the environment around you is all the more effective, why would anybody bother casting a spell to vanish from site then? What's the use of it? So the question is are we allowed to add bonuses to our spot rolls to detect someone attempting to hide in a well lit room or does such a situation negate that skill all together? In my mind it negates it as there is no where to hide in the first place.

I'm not sure why the character bothered rolling as, Axel said, the game engine does it automatically when you go in stealth mode. Improved Invisibility is just a spell, it makes the caster invisible, but doesn't mean the caster will not make noises or be any good at stealth. Cast Invisibility on an elephant and he won't be any more sneaky. Stealth, on the other hand, represents the person's skill at hiding and moving noiselessly. If you add Invisibility on top of stealth, and Silence as well, you got a character who cannot be seen or heard at all.

As for modifiers. We already have that taken into account into our areas. Some areas provide penalties to hide and move silently, others a bonus. The engine takes into account a lot of other variables such as the lighting, the time of day, the presence of torches, the distance, etc. So, just let the game engine handle stealth.

[Ruxandra]

If an invisible person is detected, they have been heard with listen. Even though you say "I'm not making any noise," you are (unless you successfully roll your Move Silently against the detector's listen, but then you're not going to get seen). Invisibility alone doesn't make you a ninja, if anything it is a half-arsed measure at best. If NWN were properly coded, you'd get a spot check against it to notice something amiss (DC 25 I think, too bothered to look it up) and Listen would properly pick up invisible people beyond maximum melee weapon reach (it doesn't).

As for hide, it's hide, not hide in shadows. One can certainly hide in shadows, but one can also hide in tall grass, behind rocks, tree lines, furniture, what-have-you and even use camouflage.

The only problem with stealth is some players seem to throw logic out the window or think they defy physics and do absurd things like wander through doors opened for all of 2 seconds while stealthed following others to spy on them and such. A stealthed person still occupies space and it doesn't matter if you're marks in Hide and MS are 150... They cannot feasibly hide within half a foot of a doorframe even with HiPS.

As for rolling emotes for it, you don't have to as the engine does it for you as said, but it does have value in illustrating an event/encounter and allowing another player to know something lurks around even if their character is oblivous.

[Chrisman888]

 Well like I said before.. the Camo spell... something along the lines that your self blends into his surrounds wherever he moves.

So you could lean against something or lay down on something and become fully camouflaged. Think of it like from the new metal gear. The OctoCamo suit

[Aghila]

The only problem with stealth is some players seem to throw logic out the window or think they defy physics and do absurd things like wander through doors opened for all of 2 seconds while stealthed following others to spy on them and such. A stealthed person still occupies space and it doesn't matter if you're marks in Hide and MS are 150... They cannot feasibly hide within half a foot of a doorframe even with HiPS.

Again. the engine is limited on that, too. Probably someone following people entering a house would find another way to enter (windows, etc...). Theres no way for the engine to do that so you just walk through the door.

Remember that there are limitations with what the engine can represent or not.. a room may be represented well lit and without a place to hide.. but. hey...the sneaker could be hidden up in the shadows of the ceiling...

[Ruxandra]

While true ~to a point~, this is Barovia. A paranoid land where werewolves prowling the night is a reality as the ground under one's feet. Good luck breaching grated/shuttered reinforced windows unheard. No one is foolish enough to leave windows open or build them so flimsily "I snuck in the window!" really makes any believable sense.

[Impotent Collateral]

If your at the point where your stealth is around 80, I EXPECT him to be good enough to unscrew rusty bolts unheard, to dance around guards with ease, break into nigh anything.

[mayvind]

talk about stealth remind me of this movie.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5soH8uPe_U[/youtube]

[Ruxandra]

If your at the point where your stealth is around 80, I EXPECT him to be good enough to unscrew rusty bolts unheard, to dance around guards with ease, break into nigh anything.

Your skill in move silently may be 80, the grate's mooring is not. Your hide skill might be 150, you still occupy physical space. Standing in front of someone's face is beyond abusive to the point it's absurd. Stealth is *not* a supernatural ability, even HiPS (which is) will NOT let you do anything of the sort. Nobody no matter at how good they are at hide and seek can do this sort of nonsense.

As for breaking into anything, stealth has nothing to do with open locks and disable device.

Properly coded, stealth should unstealth you if you get within a very close range of people just because abusive players will rationalize anything with nonsense, even as they push through a tightly-packed monster encounter in a small, bare corridor or through a doorway which is opened for 1 second with a person standing in it on the second floor of an inn.

"Oh well I went in through the window!" (cheesing) "Oh okay then, I dumped shards of broken glass all over the floor under it to the point it's unavoidable, also coated the sills with grease and also got a room who's window is a little more than an arrow slit." (no reason why not, after all, one character is making up reality, there's no reason the other should be exempt since all of it is perfectly plausible)

If a person is mindful the window is a weak-point, there's really no way you're going to get in without them noticing. Hell just opening a window is glaringly noticable in a 15' square room, especially given outdoor noise beyond your control, Barovia's lovely chill climate, the fact you'd have to open the shutters (which are all up on these sorts of buildings) and still somehow bypass reinforced window grating.

Stats never triumph logical thought.

[EO]

Except that this is DnD and much of it is illogical.

[Ruxandra]

D&D is plenty logical. Popcorn vidya games designed for single-player, a few abusive players and uninformed/absent DMs aren't. :p

The books and rules are well-written enough (neither hide nor move silently's descriptions would let you pull anything off remotely like we're talking about). It's the players who try to get away with things they know they shouldn't and DMs who let them get away with it.

If NWN's designers had any clue what a Persistent World was and planned for it's style of play before the game was even released, the game would be very, very different.

[DM Shadowspawn]

D&D is plenty logical. Popcorn vidya games designed for single-player, a few abusive players and uninformed/absent DMs aren't. :p

The books and rules are well-written enough (neither hide nor move silently's descriptions would let you pull anything off remotely like we're talking about). It's the players who try to get away with things they know they shouldn't and DMs who let them get away with it.

If NWN's designers had any clue what a Persistent World was and planned for it's style of play before the game was even released, the game would be very, very different.

Please refrain from insulting the DM team and some of the playerbase in one sentence.

In PnP a rogue can get better gear then in game in High Magic settings. Regardless of what people think is "reality" and "impossible" things happen everyday "In real life" which are hard to explain. People get kidnapped in broad daylight from within a crowd for example.


I would ask please read on the skill in PnP.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hide_Skill

In High Magic PnP settings High level Rogues can pull the underwear of a low perception person as they sit having dinner.

Some highlights:
"A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn't grant cover or concealment."
Can you say plain field? How about a desert? People are capable of this in real life too. Some people are trained to do so in crowds.

Here's my favorite:
"A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed." Wish I could do that.

In short, it's a game. It has a counter skill. If you do not have the counter skill invest in the skill, the feats, find items to aid the skill or find someone whom has the above and can knock the rogue down. Rogues die easy especially if knocked down. Taking the complaint to the forum and insulting people doesn't win friends and influence people.

[Countess29]

I am just curious as to why this is still going on. I have read several different topics all about the same thing.. I am to understand that all is based on the game engine and if you see the person so be it. if not well what a shame. I mean it is a rule put forth by the admin. Put some ranks in spot and listen and you wont have an issue.
I mean I think there is a complain about every class out there.
If we are going to get on the DnD wagon lets start with true seeing... You all have used it sometime or another to find a sneaking rogue. Well the rules say that true seeing is to only looking for magic invisibility not mundane hiding and. Yet we use it and the rogues get over it. So if your going to quote rules and want to follow them lets just get the books and and follow all the rules not the one we just see fit and fit our needs
And I ask where does it say someone cant hide after using a shadow and then moving on. It doesnt from what I read so stop bending the rules lets stop the complaining about it...
Move on RP have fun and put ranks in listen and spot

[Chrisman888]

Nothing, will change..  unless we all band together and make a whole new NWN lol. I guess people like to keep stabbing at it.. unno *shrugs*


And I saw that Sniping thing for hiding. Now that's cool, let's put that in Haha.

[Grieyls]

Well yesterday one of my characters had an encounter with somebody he couldn't see. They were using hide or invisibility or both and I could not see said character on the screen. It was broad daylight outside too so yeah the NWN engine does all this stuff for you and if you don't put ranks in spot and what not then its really no fault of the one hiding. Anyway, I'm not going to bother with spot checks and so forth if I can see the character plainly on the screen anymore, especially if my character is looking directly at them. Not unless a DM asks me to do that that is, but I'll bet that would be for a differing reason.

[Ric]

Would be cool if there were emotes stealthers could use to show how they are positioned, like crawling, crouching, etc.  I've been in situations where DMs have asked me why my character was standing directly over two sitting people in an open terrain, of which I responded that he was laying in a prone state, blending in with the dirt and grass.  If it were possible to perform these emotes while in stealth-mode, it would at least eliminate the notion that stealthers are just 'standing next to someone', since that obviously lacks real stealth qualifications.