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Author Topic: Systems - Ninja Looting  (Read 3670 times)

EO

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2008, 03:45:13 PM »
Is the issue ninja-looting or the balance of ninja-looting? What I think would be logical is that it'd take a high level rogue to ninjaloot a high level dungeon, is that the case?

Rex

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2008, 03:49:16 PM »
Is the issue ninja-looting or the balance of ninja-looting? What I think would be logical is that it'd take a high level rogue to ninjaloot a high level dungeon, is that the case?

I think it's an issue of Both.  Ninja Looting and it's associated Cousins disrupt the static balance altogether.

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kenpen

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2008, 03:54:02 PM »
I think the issue is more the balance.

If you've got a high level party, there's still a chance of wiping in a high level dungeon. It doesn't take any longer to build a sneak and level it than it does any other character, but with a high level sneak, there's no chance of actually getting caught ninja'ing currently. In the coal caves, you might have a chance of getting knocked out of stealth. I'm not sure. But, otherwise, not much chance of getting caught.  You get a -5 penalty for removing an item from a chest, right? And it goes away after a few seconds if you don't remove any items and let it wear off. -5, against sneaks with 50+ isn't really a big deal.

Throw some sounding wards around the chests if there are high level wizards involved. Throw some boss keys on the main loot. With all the efforts made towards insuring people have trouble solo'ing to get the best stuff, and beating the bosses alone, or cracking the chests alone with their massive troll strengths,  it seems a bit odd that the stealthed looting aspect was so overlooked when the newer dungeons and remodels were put into place.

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2008, 04:48:10 PM »
I dont mind if someone does the whole dungeon, but if i personally take my time and effort to do a dungeon, i like my reward at the end.

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Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

This is a great suggestion, also if you log out while in stealth mode you re-log in stealth mode, a script to disable that would be nice.

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2008, 05:12:11 PM »
Everyone must now listen to the song Let It Be by the Beatles. 

Some people ninja loot, some people don't.  If you can spot the ninja on your way in, all the better.. you can kill, threaten, or rob him/her.  I don't think boss keys are the answer, I mean if there's a key hole there should be a chance to pick it.  Could make a boss key AND make the chest harder to pick.  I do think that placing traps around the chests and other such things to make getting to them harder for someone in stealth might be sufficient.  Think Indiana Jones, he is definitely a ninja looter, and it sure isn't easy to do.

I honestly don't feel anyone's pain though. Most of my characters are constantly in poverty and all.  I imagine most of the loot you all are talking about is way beyond anything I've ever seen as far as value goes.
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Rex

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2008, 05:22:52 PM »
I dont mind if someone does the whole dungeon, but if i personally take my time and effort to do a dungeon, i like my reward at the end.

Quote
Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

This is a great suggestion, also if you log out while in stealth mode you re-log in stealth mode, a script to disable that would be nice.

Easier to do one that simply, doesn't let you save location in a Dungeon.  I think some one else brought up something along those lines.  Log Out, you log back in at your last safe location.  At least then it adds some effort as a repercussion.

Been standing outside a Dungeon Waiting for the Group to catch up and had people Log in and CHARGE!  (Yes it was screenied and reported).  Logging back in at Safe Locations would resolve a chunk of that.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2008, 05:23:04 PM »
Is the issue ninja-looting or the balance of ninja-looting?

Balance.  I think it would be a shame to place strict rules on acts like ninja looting.  Ninja looting will always happen; it's only disappointing because of how easy it is to pull off.

What I think would be logical is that it'd take a high level rogue to ninjaloot a high level dungeon, is that the case?

That is not the case, in my opinion.  A mid to high level rogue (10-15), as already pointed out, can loot the highest level of dungeons.  A level 20 fighter, however, no matter how good his gear is, most likely cannot solo the demonologists and reach the end without getting their ass handed to them.  If they did manage to reach the end, it would either take around 50 healing potions or so many bandages and rests that the dungeon would take forever... And even if this solo fighter did reach the end, they still cannot open the chests and get the loot.  I understand the need for partying, and with the most recent changes to the server I don't take my character on solo ventures anymore because it's not worth it, yet still somehow a rogue can spend 30 minutes in a dungeon, assuming that's how long it takes to walk across the dungeon in stealth mode, and walk away with all of the marbles.

Keep in mind that when I have soloed places with my fighter, I often spend 2-3 hours doing only part of a dungeon, because it's so difficult.  I usually walk out of that place moderately rewarded but damned exhausted (at least I used to feel moderately rewarded back when I could bash chests open).  I do not see the same level of challenge to successfully complete this task with a rogue.  Walk in, open, walk out.  Fast, easy (all the player is relying on is the build, not on any serious amount of character control), and yet more rewarding than the poor fighter.

I do not mind the changes that prevent me from soloing, because I have gotten more interaction with other players and characters because of it.  I wish the same went for rogues, so that they are not able to do a complete loot on their own without massive amounts of trouble.

=====================================

I would like to restate one of my ideas, and then introduce a few others:

Boss Chests
I think boss loot should progress separately from the rest of the loot in the dungeon.  Even with constant grinding and ninja looting, once the dungeon hit a level high enough to produce a boss monster, anyone with enough brawn to take him down would still be able to be rewarded.

Minibosses?
I think it would be nice if a few minibosses were also set up in the same way, also having their own chests.  This would allow small parties of a moderate level with no lockpickers present to hit up some dungeons and walk away feeling accomplished.  Minibosses, of course, would not make sense for every dungeon, but would make sense for a few, I feel.  The lich tower already has minibosses set up, but they are easier than the base monsters in the place and their keys don't work.

Looting Difficulty
There are some areas, such as the shadow cave, that can be ninja looted without even needing a rogue!  I hope there are measures that can be taken to help ensure that this isn't possible.

There was one instance where my small rogueless party of moderate level characters and my high level fighter got delayed and ended up not being able to have enough time to clear the dungeon before I had to log off.  One of the players had died because they had looked at one of the treasure piles while getting mobbed by shadow spiders, and told me that there was a magical shield and a nice pair of boots there.  So I guzzled an invisibility potion and a potion of cowardice, and I was able to get the treasure without any trouble.  I could have hit the whole place, and the uber monsters I don't have a chance at being able to kill wouldn't have been able to stop me from doing it, all because the loot is on skeletons.  So... even a fighter and a potion of cowardice can perform ninja looting.

I would bet, and could possibly prove if someone gave me access to a character with a high enough lockpick skill to pull it off, that I could loot the last four demonologist chests without using stealth at all.  They take a lot of time perparing before they fight, and in that time a player could open a chest, swipe the treasure, and haul ass back out of the area until the demonologists reset all of their spells, at which point you could go back and do it again... it would take a bit of time to do this, but it wouldn't even require the ability to hide.

Finally, an example of a reasonable change specific to the demonologist temple:

  • Key lock two out of the four chests.
  • Separate the loot progression of the key locked chests and the other two.
  • As Delphinidae said, add bats to the area.  Bats would act as an obstacle to the rogue and have to be dealt with before the rogue could continue, helping to balance out the risk and the reward.

I think those specific suggestions for the demonologist temple would satisfy both parties.  Ninja looting would still be something that could be accomplished, yet not something that would ruin the dungeon for another party.  It does not prefer one side over the other, and still manages to give the greatest rewards to those who go in with diverse parties.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 05:24:50 PM by Bad_Bud »


Anarcoplayba

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2008, 05:27:53 PM »
Ok, just my two cents.

This is a game. I understand that the developers may direct the players experience to some extent, but I don't like seeing the game forced in one direction.

What I mean: Everyone LIKES one class more than others. If I want to play a rogue, I know that I'll receive a helluva skill points, d6 dit die and a crappy attack base.

If I want to play a fighter, I know I'll get d10 HD, and tons of feats.

If I play a caster I know that I'll receive d4, but I also know that, if I can keep the distance, I can put the world on fire.

If the developers nerf the spells, give extra feats for every class or make the dungeons umpillageble "for the sake of partying" all they will get is the same database of players who can party with consistency improving.

That's what you want? Fine, but people like me who have day jobs, and other problems to solve will simply feel unmotivated to play the game. See, I'm from Brazil and and started to play with another friend. For lot's of personal reasons he reached level 12, while I'm still at level 8. His dungeon is not my dungeon, and if I want to be an useful player, I must be able to solo to try to catch up to him.

If I'm a rogue and I want to play I must:

1) Solo as I can (what pretty much means Ninja looting).
2) Be prepared to play this game until 3:00 AM, and spent my day as a zombie in front of my computer at my office.
3) Make an "outstanding" roleplay of "hummmm... I see you are going to the alhoon... would you mind if me, a strange you never met follow you to somewhere I could easily backstab you and steal your money and weapons?" "Of Course!"

Well, I really expect that everyone here have other priorities here that makes nš 2 stay out of question.

Now we have to priorize between 1 and 3.

And no, I don't play a rogue that goes ninja looting (tough I pretty much solo).

My point is, all I see is people pointing fingers to the other side ("the game is too easy for casters", "Oh, they ninja-looted my dungeon!", "Oh, the box of herbs is too pricy, there is people earning money just for walking!")

I wasn't planning to talk about it now, but anyone choose the class they want to roleplay. If you want to be a treasure hunter, go ninja looting! If you want to be a undead hunter, go cleaning the catacombs! If you want to be a hunter, go be a ranger and hunt werewolves! The game needs hard core areas to party, but the game also needs easy areas to solo, because not everybody can have a schedule to play with other players (I try to log at least one houer each day just to not be left behind).

And, since I touched the subject, in my opinion, changing the rules to adress a class of players will just make the server restricted: If you can play consistently with a broad schedule to party, then you will develop your character. If not, you will be always behind other players. It's a matter of choice: you may create a server friendly to those who play to have fun and can't dedicate themselves that much, or you can create a server to those who can schedule big dungeon crawling parties.

If you chose the later, you will also have the advantage of reducing the lag, since players like me will feel compelled to abandon the server.

And this rules/expectations things are specially true regarding spells and stuff. I was SO happy when I discovered that summon creature lasted in round, not in hours, after creating a Cleric of Animal domain. And I'm SO happy to see that turn undead only tickles most of the undeads. And I'm SO happy to see that the buffs (bull's strength, specially) was nerfed in its duration too. It's all a matter of expectations: set them and DON'T CHANGE.

It's simply frustrating to creat a PC oriented to one purpose and them discover that he is USELESS just because some people decided to rebalance the game and change the rules in the middle of the game.

(In the end, my two cents sere more like ten dollars).
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Aghila

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2008, 05:43:20 PM »
Why not make bosses drop better loot and lower the loot in chests? Ninjas would still be able to get some loot, but there would still be a nice reward for those killing the bosses.

Wids

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2008, 05:48:18 PM »
I dont mind if someone does the whole dungeon, but if i personally take my time and effort to do a dungeon, i like my reward at the end.
We are all little white lab mice, the dungeons are our mazes, and if we poke our way through to the end of the maze, then someone had better damn well give us our effin' cheese.   :x

Quote
Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

This is a great suggestion, also if you log out while in stealth mode you re-log in stealth mode, a script to disable that would be nice.
Nef alone acknowledges my greatness.  The rest of you are all Philistines!  :P

Everyone must now listen to the song Let It Be by the Beatles. 

Some people ninja loot, some people don't.  If you can spot the ninja on your way in, all the better.. you can kill, threaten, or rob him/her.  I don't think boss keys are the answer, I mean if there's a key hole there should be a chance to pick it.  Could make a boss key AND make the chest harder to pick.  I do think that placing traps around the chests and other such things to make getting to them harder for someone in stealth might be sufficient.  Think Indiana Jones, he is definitely a ninja looter, and it sure isn't easy to do.
Indiana Jones usually gets the loot after alerting every Thuggee guard and setting off every trap in the place.  That's hardly a ninja looter.  :P

But the super-high lock DC would be more realistic than the key-only "specific key" approach, but ten will get me twenty that at least half the ninja looters who have uber stealth have uber Open Locks as well.  Why not just sit the chests right on top of a big Deadly trap with a really high DC to disarm and/or a script which allows the trap to return after a few seconds (which is something I did with multiple Slow traps in that one module I whipped up)?  Then add a script to disable the trap for, say, 10 minutes upon the boss' death.  And for an added anti-ninja bonus, surround the trap and the chest with guard monsters and make the trap a kind which won't harm them (poison gas trap/construct or undead guards, fire trap/fire elementals, et cetera).  While the trap's whammying the looter and kicking him out of stealth, the guards are shrugging off the trap's nasty effects and moving in to deal with the interloper.

Traps can be our best friends here.   :twisted:

Easier to do one that simply, doesn't let you save location in a Dungeon.  I think some one else brought up something along those lines.  Log Out, you log back in at your last safe location.  At least then it adds some effort as a repercussion.

Been standing outside a Dungeon Waiting for the Group to catch up and had people Log in and CHARGE!  (Yes it was screenied and reported).  Logging back in at Safe Locations would resolve a chunk of that.
I believe it is possible to make certain areas No-Save locations, so I have to go with Rex on this idea too.  Back to my idea about logged-off characters not vanishing into the ether, this could be explained as "the monsters caught you while you were sleeping on the boss' treasure chest, so you hauled ass out of the dungeon and didn't stop running until you were in the next county".  :?

As long as something gets done about the ease of ninja-looting, I'm all for it.  Empty treasure chests after a mile-long battle = suckage.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 05:56:19 PM by Wids »

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2008, 07:32:08 PM »
Drop a clove of garlic, or a single gold coin at the entrance to a dungeon you just Ninja'd.

Gives people who do the dungeon all the way through the chance to realize, oh, hell, its been Ninja'd. At least we didn't waste 2 hours and a near-wipe going after a possible reward.

I mostly dungeon for the fun, the excitement.. and because I get dragged into it >.>

But as wids said, I like my cheese.

The only problem I have with Ninja looters is the plain lack of courtesy most have for anyone else, up to and including, sneaking past the group while they are in a fight and getting the loot, then leaving. If you see a group fighting, hey, unstealth! Join the party. You may not get ALL the treasure, but you might make some allies/friends and still get some nice gear.
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Chrisman888

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Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2008, 08:09:11 PM »
This may be off topic, but I dono who the heck thinks leveling a rogue is the same.

I'm around level 15 Rogue type I think now, and ever since then I have had to party up -all- the time. The only way one could lvl up easy with a rogue is if they went Shadowdancer and abused HiPs over and over.

I also have a dwarf fighter at 10 now I think, and I leveled him way more faster, and easier. I could solo the orphanage  without a problem.. and gain -allot- of exp, on my lower level times.