Discussion: Problems with weapon spell buffs and weapon plusses vs undead PCs

[Helaman]

We know that stuff like 2nd death and angels arm etc don't work undead characters.

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=13414.0;topicseen

Now it seems that bless weapon spell has no effect either.

Am I being silly here or does something need to be done?

If its case of these things NOT working then what does work? I've been told dosing them with healing potions is cheeze but if the very game mechanics don't work then it may be the only solution and I figure it balances everything.

Lets not have EO lock this one... I just want to know what is the issue (ie coding), is there a potential fix if the undead templates are re-written, and why silvered weapons still work on weres yet some of the above items for fighting undead do not... is that a jump point to fix the issue and finally, how can we as the player base (non undead ) adapt to this.

[EO]

Helaman, before I answer those questions, how much do you know about the toolset and scripting? I want to know just how detailed the explanation will have to be.

[Helaman]

Sweet nothing EO but you didn't give a lot of details on the previous thread I linked above for reference.

But see, thats the cool thing, as a discussion thread I'm hoping that players who do know about the coding or yourself, to get into discussion and talk it through so the whys and wherefores are clear and whatever the work arounds may be. There may be other servers that have fixes or it may be a common issue.

Talk to me like I'm ignorant - I don't mind and I'm sure other players who also don't understand will gain from it.

You are also a pretty creative fellow - whats your ideas on the work around or future state for this issue?

[Delphinidae]

Actually, I locked that thread (the one on bless weapons) since EO mentioned it wasn't possible. I'm supposing it is an engine limitation. I feel that the tone in your first post is a little... demanding, Helaman. Anyway, EO or any other Dev will probably explain as to why the weapon bonuses don't work on undead PCs. I'll add it to the topic header, since your current title makes it look like they don't work on all undead, when it's an undead PC issue.

[Helaman]

Actually, I locked that thread (the one on bless weapons) since EO mentioned it wasn't possible. I'm supposing it is an engine limitation. I feel that the tone in your first post is a little... demanding, Helaman. Anyway, EO or any other Dev will probably explain as to why the weapon bonuses don't work on undead PCs. I'll add it to the topic header, since your current title makes it look like they don't work on all undead, when it's an undead PC issue.

Thanks Delph - appreciate not locking this one and the change  - just want to find what the fix is and the potential balance issues.

[Kung Fu Orc]

If these monsterous races can't be fully integrated with the weaknesses to match their pnp benefits, should we even offer them at all?

I still think monsterous races offer very little to the roleplay dynamic of the server and just further split up the player base- very little that couldn't be matched with a good NPC/DM storyline.

[tzaeru]

I'm curious too to know the actual reason since silver weapons do work versus werebeast PCs.

And got the knowledge of NWN scripting and game mechanics.

[EO]

I'm curious too to know the actual reason since silver weapons do work versus werebeast PCs.

And got the knowledge of NWN scripting and game mechanics.

Shapeshifting is considered like polymorph. In the polymorph.2da, you can set the racial type of the creature you turn into. So, when you polymorph into a Pixie, you literally become a pixie. If you turn into a werewolf, you become a werewolf with the Shapechanger race.

That's not the case for undead. They do not polymorph into undead. You can't alter the racial type of a creature in-game, just in the toolset or at creation, but you can't add the "Undead" option to the character generator since it's player-side. As such, undead PC's can't be set as undead and weapons won't work against them since those are hard-coded.

[Ric]

But isn't "Zombie" (which is Undead) applied to the Polymorph rule?

[Bad_Bud]

I was told by a PC wight that the bless weapon did divine damage to them.  It is possible that they were simply being hit by holy sword and divine might.

[EO]

I was told by a PC wight that the bless weapon did divine damage to them.  It is possible that they were simply being hit by holy sword and divine might.

That PC was confused. People assume a lot of things.

And yes, polymorph zombie makes you an undead, but we won't force our undead PC's to polymorph all the time, that's just a pain and full of problems.

[Helaman]

I'm curious too to know the actual reason since silver weapons do work versus werebeast PCs.

And got the knowledge of NWN scripting and game mechanics.

Shapeshifting is considered like polymorph. In the polymorph.2da, you can set the racial type of the creature you turn into. So, when you polymorph into a Pixie, you literally become a pixie. If you turn into a werewolf, you become a werewolf with the Shapechanger race.

That's not the case for undead. They do not polymorph into undead. You can't alter the racial type of a creature in-game, just in the toolset or at creation, but you can't add the "Undead" option to the character generator since it's player-side. As such, undead PC's can't be set as undead and weapons won't work against them since those are hard-coded.

Thats a cool answer.

Is there a potential work around or equaliser others can use here? Having a weapon thats vs undead that bounces off them is a bit... well - disappointing, as is the bless weapon spell not working.

I take it Magic Weapon and Greater MW work? Its just effects or damage that are anti undead that dont work, right?

Is there a potential fix (even long term), like redo the monsterous templates?

[EO]

It's not unbalanced. As much as vs undead weapons don't work, weapons vs human or vs elves do work.

So, while the Dashow may not work, in return the Blade of the Cattle works.

It's a very minor thing honestly and since there's no fix, we play along. It's nothing new either, it's been that way for years and no one has had their roleplay ruined because of it.

[Helaman]

Pvp also has a place in RP and monsterous classes really work against other player characters.

But fair enough and thanks for the reply and explaination.

honest say I didnt know if this was as deep.

Would a hakpak fix it?

[Kung Fu Orc]

There are far fewer vs human/elf weapons then there are undead.

[EO]

Pvp also has a place in RP and monsterous classes really work against other player characters.

But fair enough and thanks for the reply and explaination.

honest say I didnt know if this was as deep.

Would a hakpak fix it?

No. The only way would be to leto every undead PC, but we won't leto any PC's here.

[Ric]

The no on leto was becuase of it not being compatable with our server client, right?  Are there any other editing programs around for that?

[EO]

The no on leto was becuase of it not being compatable with our server client, right?  Are there any other editing programs around for that?

It's one of the reasons. And we don't want to burden Axel with that and the university has strict conditions concerning the hosting, we can't let anyone access the servers.

[Ric]

By the way, is it just the weapons that are broken vs. undead PCs?  Had someone asking if Warding Gestures works against PCs that are monstrous.

[Impotent Collateral]

Had a guy Gesture me, I saw a Will save roll by. I think it works.

[Helaman]

The no on leto was becuase of it not being compatable with our server client, right?  Are there any other editing programs around for that?

It's one of the reasons. And we don't want to burden Axel with that and the university has strict conditions concerning the hosting, we can't let anyone access the servers.

Cool and thanks EO.

I'll drop it for myself here and just ask that in the future if leto is a possibility once Axel has some bandwidth, that it get considered... until then, the vs. undead or evil bonus just has to be taken into consideration...

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

It's not unbalanced. As much as vs undead weapons don't work, weapons vs human or vs elves do work.

So, while the Dashow may not work, in return the Blade of the Cattle works.

It's a very minor thing honestly and since there's no fix, we play along. It's nothing new either, it's been that way for years and no one has had their roleplay ruined because of it.

honestly eo i gotta disagree with you here i got calson in plenty of situations where he's pvp vamp pcs at times and cant do jack with his bow cause of this bug or whatever you would wish to call it so it DOES effect rp to certain folks mine for example as one and i'm sure others too. How can someone claim to be a undead hunter and a good one at that when tehy can go slam the vamp crypts but cant take down a single vamp pc in combat? so yeah there is rp unbalance, there is pvp unbalance and pvm unbalance in regards to things too i think. I guess i am confused where you say there aint a unbalance issue or issue of rp ruined.

[failed.bard]

  This may sound like it's picking on the undead, but it's not really intended that way, just pointing something out that's in the rules.  If the weapon is supposed to hurt undead based on description of it, spells on it and such, and it doesn't, then if undead PCs are taking advantage of that in PvP it's an exploit, plain and simple.

[Helaman]

No worries... the Morninglordians are working on a "Chug a lug" tactic that involves the use of a Beer Bong to pour healing potions into the undead... followed by R&D of using healing potions to throw at the undead... throw enough serious potions and its gonna hurt.

 

[Bad_Bud]

No worries... the Morninglordians are working on a "Chug a lug" tactic that involves the use of a Beer Bong to pour healing potions into the undead... followed by R&D of using healing potions to throw at the undead... throw enough serious potions and its gonna hurt.

 

Just dump a healing potion and lay on hands.