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Author Topic: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests  (Read 2540 times)

kenpen

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Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« on: September 23, 2008, 03:21:24 AM »
Since people have been mentioning this, but since no one seems to have posted it, I'll say it.

It's pretty lame that your little lambey badger manages to break stuff inside a chest when it hits it. The fact one single strike from a lambey more often than not ends up with an item broken inside the chest seems to say to me that the bashing/breaking system, rather than being geared towards something realistic, is just there to force more people to bring things or take find-remove traps, which is fine... except, almost no one is ever getting their FRT up to the ridiculous levels of the DCs of the traps at the ice queen, for example.

And, also, I think it's pretty silly that using a crowbar also causes you to break things inside. People use crowbars all the time to get things open, all without breaking the things inside them. In fact, that's sorta what a crowbar is for. It's not like you're pounding the chest with the crowbar. You're jamming it between two cracks, and levering it.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 03:47:26 AM »
I see you've never tried to use a crowbar... ;)

Seriously, opening up a hinged lock might usually be done without risk of breaking things inside, but the more you have to struggle with breaking open something, the less control you usually have of it. Even with a crowbar. Having more strength actually usually mean you have more control of breakening things open. That's how I see the reasoning of the system, and though I admit it isn't perfectly sensible the way it is now, it is a balancing factor.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 03:54:28 AM »
/Add:

Imagine it as this:

- A low DC chest could be a chest with a hinged lock that would be easy to break open with a well placed sword hit or similar. There's a minimal chance of breaking the things inside. Using a crowbar would make it no trouble at all.

- A bit higher DC would probably have a built in lock. Breaking it open might imply jamming in something in a crack or breaking off the hinges holding the lid. It would be possible, but it might take a bit more struggle, and if you're unlucky, breaking fragile items inside. Lower strength characters would have to take more wild swings to put enough power into it, giving them less control of their effort - hence, they might more easily have a bad hit that cause the chest to roll over or similar.

- A higher quality chest won't even have an open crack around the lid suitable for jamming in the crowbar. It's hinges might even be built into the underside of the lid. Opening such a chest would surely need a lot of struggle, and lower strength characters will never get further than struggling with it.

kenpen

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 07:05:42 AM »
I used crowbars all the time, and I never break things with them. RL, I mean. My use with them here is limited, because... well, they broke things. And I get just as good bashing without one.

There is always a crack, or you end up making one. You stick the crowbar against the crack, little pointy end. The other end, you hammer. In the event you actually have something that's SO flush there's no grip (and let's not forget most of that technology to make something that damned perfect doesn't exist in a D&D world short of magic), you put it against the place the two lips meet, and you hammer the other end of the bar. It chips the crack, creates a wedge. You jam another crowbar in the opposite direction, push up and pull down. If you really want to crack something open, you stick an actual wedge against it once you get any gap at all, and you hammer that. Push, and pull. You don't swing a crowbar. Levering is actually quite gentle. The only violent part is getting the action end into the gap, and even then the only shock anything inside the chest takes is when the chest itself has to move and stop. Stick something on the other side of the chest, and the chest itself becomes its own reenforcer.

Maybe a glass bottle would break during all that. But a weapon? A piece of armor (which itself gets smacked around all the time sustaining direct contact, and never breaks)? They're not going to break. Given the fact a crowbar only adds... what, 5 points?... to the roll, and weighs a godawful amount (a bit more more than any actual crowbar, except one of the really big "trucker" bars) there should be some advantage to using one to "bash" a chest, mainly that you're not breaking everything inside while using it.

But, this post was more about the badgers breaking items just by smacking a chest with it's snout. I just threw in the crowbar thing because, overall, the chance to break an item seems awful high.

Especially if one hit from a badger is doing it.

Aran

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 07:52:38 AM »
hmm in my experience it seems only fragile things break

i had a go at a large chest neededn a 20 to open. It took me around 70 rolls with some 30 critical failures (yea bad rolling)
and 4 items in there were broken    but not  the armor and the weapons.

seems some things dont break

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 08:19:36 AM »
I dont think the badger should break things inside, if there was an *other* way to spring those impossible ice queen traps i would use it, i mean my rogue is witty with 15 int she could figure out a way to spring the trap but she cant unless a dm is with us, which is never a good thing up there. I mean heck its a freaking badger touching the lock.  Either make traps easier to find or create an alternative trap springing system.

Even the traps at low level gilos are hard to find with 19 search

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2008, 12:43:55 PM »
Maybe Soren can explain what can and can't be broken and things of that nature.  Then we'll all be understanding good little boys and girls.


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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2008, 12:45:22 PM »
If you know you can't break the good items you'll be more likely to keep bashing.  People either need to make more rogues, or convince me to play mine.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2008, 04:38:25 PM »
People either need to make more rogues, or convince me to play mine.
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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2008, 05:18:34 PM »
my rogue was built with the old system, now i have to rework my skill points -_- i dont even know how much search and disable trap i need now, i know this is just crunching but after 3 years it's a pain to have to rework everything. Too i think the DC of some of these traps just to even SEE them is a bit ridiculous

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archonzero

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2008, 05:22:18 PM »
  Yup plenty of rogues on the server, would be helluva lot easier to pick up a trapspringer, even for those unsavory evil types most "rogues" are rather non-discretionary with whom they roll with ... so long as they not having to worry about becoming a meal or some such.  Though it would seem still less group gathering for forays into the wild yonders.  Not to say there aren't groups that do it, they're just intelligently selective (or maybe closed) with whom. 

  Yes as for the DC on traps you can see I tend to notice that some are very difficult (near impossible) unless they're specialized in trap springing (with focus + gear).  Though the thing I do tend to notice is that in some areas the DC is high.. then you get farther and the DC drops.  Which makes little sense, when one would think the traps deeper in would become harder to deal with rather than early on and then become easier.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:25:34 PM by archonzero »

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 05:41:09 PM »
Using bard song on a character with a high fortitude* save is a good way to gobble up traps without wasting potions!

*fortitude to keep negative traps from permanently level draining noobs


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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 06:28:21 PM »
I've got a rogue with pretty high Search/Disable Trap, pretty sure the disarm DC's enver get higher then 30-35, i'm not sure on the search DC's. I've got 20 search, i'll have to run some tests.

But I need MEATSHIELDS to do so.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 06:31:58 PM by Kung Fu Orc »

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Heretic

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 11:12:11 PM »
... except, almost no one is ever getting their FRT up to the ridiculous levels of the DCs of the traps at the ice queen, for example.

You only need 25 Search and 45 DC disable trap for the toughest chests at the ice queen palace. [Usually those that are at the back where Golems are]

Its not impossible, quite doable in fact, given you match the criterias of what that dungeon is supposed to be, for strong, skilled characters. If you are under level 10, and unfocused in the areas requiring looting, you wont be able to reap the rewards there without difficulty and risk.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 11:51:27 PM »
As Heretic said, the dungeon is geared toward higher levels and that includes higher level rogues as well.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2008, 09:09:58 AM »
I'm lvl 8 and have 20 search and 15 OL. So to spot the traps you'll have to be lvl 13 at least. To disable them.. well that depends on your gear... I dunno what gear is out there that adds bonus's to disable trap, but I reckon even if you can get +2 or +3 to disable trap, you'll have to be lvl 15. If you CAN'T... lvl 18.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2008, 09:14:35 AM »
Okay. Topic is derailing from the bash system to the traps in the Ice Palace. Please return to the topic.


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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2008, 10:49:06 AM »
Actually it's very much linked. A rogue never used to need a badger to spring traps and the idea to use the lambey is only a replacement to an actual trap springing device that i would like to see implemented akin to the crowbar but for traps without breaking the stuff inside. Something that would make sense, a trap is what, a string, a needle, a small bomb, it's meant to protect the treasure inside, not destroy it.

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Re: Bash System - Badgers so strong they breaking contents of chests
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2008, 12:38:10 PM »
I think you're just hitting areas that aren't meant for your rogue if you're using a badger to remove traps. Also, it's not the traps destroying the treasure, as far as I recall (which I think is plausible, think of the bank wad of bills paintbombs), it's the bashing of the chest that makes things inside break. IC I'd say it's the trap and the bashing.


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