Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change

[Bad_Bud]

Are you actually for once saying that you are against what's the official rules Rex?

There's no mention in the book of a save (and notice the (if any) in the quoted). I'll still give you though that it does make it quite powerful, but our CR is as the books as well...

But on the other hand I don't think we have any other dungeons where you get attacked by that many of one kind of enemy at once either... while it may follow the rules, I don't think they intended to have someone get str drained by a swarm of 50 shadows.  At that point they would just put in a wooden sign that says "clerics only*"

*or herbalists

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

As dungeon, are you referring to the Sullen Woods? (just for my own clarification) - I don't believe it's that many really, but I might be wrong. To me it seems much like most other places. I generally agree, though, that we need to downsize mobs - one scary creature is better than repetitive pummeling down.

I sort of think it's fair with a save against the shadow's attack though - they can spam it so easily, and since they are incorporeal, they can be hard to hit and bring down quickly.

[failed.bard]

In the northern sullen woods you can get mobs over 50 at higher spawn.

  As for the no save draining, I think you should keep it in.  The sullen woods get farmed by clerics and paladins (my paladin included) with virtually no risk, and the attack is easily countered with one spell/potion.  It might even help promote that partying thing I keep hearing about.

[kenpen]

They've always been able to strength drain, as far as I can tell. My cats used to get hit all the time. Characters didn't seem to get whacked with it as much, for whatever reason. Maybe it's was the PfE? No idea.

As for mobs, I like 'em. Easy to get 50 around Aluria and then whirlwind attack them all to death (provided I feel like logging in and out every time whirlwind locks me up.)

[Ric]

I would be fine with that, normally, but there is a problem that I noticed when we had our encounter: They weren't even attacking us.  Just spamming the touch-attack ability, which only does STR-damage, not Hitpoint-damage.  If all you need is a Negative Energy Protection spell, then that becomes far easier than it ever was, since now they're spamming an ability that doesn't do anything to you.  Whereas before, they would actually hit you with the on-hit drain, where if you could avoid the drain, you still took damage.

[Knas]

There is a safe way though, dodge or use negative energy prot - it even comes in potions now a days!

[Ric]

I would be fine with that, normally, but there is a problem that I noticed when we had our encounter:  They weren't even attacking us.  Just spamming the touch-attack ability, which only does STR-damage, not Hitpoint-damage.  If all you need is a Negative Energy Protection spell, then that becomes far easier than it ever was, since now they're spamming an ability that doesn't do anything to you.  Whereas before, they would actually hit you with the on-hit drain, where if you could avoid the drain, you still took damage.

Negative energy protection shouldn't make you invicible against these guys.  It should just remove the on-hit drain effect.  Shadows are supposed to do physical damage to you, but with the spamming of that ability, you're 100% invincible from them, as long as you have negative energy protection on.

[Nevoh]

I would be fine with that, normally, but there is a problem that I noticed when we had our encounter:  They weren't even attacking us.  Just spamming the touch-attack ability, which only does STR-damage, not Hitpoint-damage.  If all you need is a Negative Energy Protection spell, then that becomes far easier than it ever was, since now they're spamming an ability that doesn't do anything to you.  Whereas before, they would actually hit you with the on-hit drain, where if you could avoid the drain, you still took damage.

Negative energy protection shouldn't make you invicible against these guys.  It should just remove the on-hit drain effect.  Shadows are supposed to do physical damage to you, but with the spamming of that ability, you're 100% invincible from them, as long as you have negative energy protection on.

Which every cleric has.

[Rex]

By the Book, Shadows don't Do damage to you when they hit.  It's just the 1d6 Str Damage, 1d8 Str Damage if a Greater Shadow.  Anyone reduced to 0 str by this is Killed and Rises as a Shadow under the control of it's Killer.  Shadows scare me when they are adjusted to proper ways and means.  Hell in book land you only get Death Ward, and it just lasts for a Minute per Level.  That can run out quick, especially in a big fight with a bunch of intangible things you keep missing.  Oh, give them their 40 ft/rnd movement, and apply Speed reduction per class of Armor, and you got an issue that generates some serious respect for the Shadow as a Monster.

~Rex

[Ric]

Uh, this is an old topic that was solved during the time it was posted, guys.  The problem with the NPCs suddenly spamming touch attacks is done with.

[Rex]

Uh, this is an old topic that was solved during the time it was posted, guys.  The problem with the NPCs suddenly spamming touch attacks is done with.

So.  Sometimes new People find Old Topics and want to talk about it.  It does pay to remember that not everyone has the time to live on the forum 24/7, so occasionally, Old topics spring back to life.  Sometimes, they bring up a good and valid point.  The only way to prevent that from happening is of course to simply remove all "solved" threads.

In regards to the Shadow thing I myself would like to see them go to the STR drain that they were demonstrating during that time since that's what they are like in the book.  It would certainly make the Shadows a LOT more fearful, and something to be respected.  Truth be told, you aren't even supposed to get a save vs the attack.  The hit you you lose STR.  Only thing that protects against it is 1 or 2 spells if you count the bioware thing both of which have short duration (or should)

Semi Related to that there are many Undead with Aura's, that seem to do nothing as well.  I'd rather see, closer to the book and real fear of "Stay away from a Shadow cause in 3 hits, You'll BE a Shadow!" then the "Dude can I have a +1 weapon or a spell I'm gonna go Rape XP from the Shadows in the Sullen Woods."

~Rex
 

[Ric]

Except that the big problem that caused this discussion was that when they were using the touch attack, it was only draining strength without damage, therefore making clerics with the negative energy protection spell invinvicible, since the shadows weren't even attacking.

Giving them an on-hit drain without a save throw, on the other hand, would be more fearful, that I can agree.  It would at least force players to get their hands on negative energy protection potions / clerics before engaging any shadow.  And, at the same time, it would still be a damaging attack, making negative energy protection nullify only the drain, not the damage they do.

[Rex]

Except that the big problem that caused this discussion was that when they were using the touch attack, it was only draining strength without damage, therefore making clerics with the negative energy protection spell invinvicible, since the shadows weren't even attacking.

Giving them an on-hit drain without a save throw, on the other hand, would be more fearful, that I can agree.  It would at least force players to get their hands on negative energy protection potions / clerics before engaging any shadow.  And, at the same time, it would still be a damaging attack, making negative energy protection nullify only the drain, not the damage they do.

The point is, that they are not supposed to do damage.  It's Just the Drain.  Adjust the Duration of the Protective spell to the book levels, you got serious fear now.  Also, Shadow Fiends are completely different Critters Altogether, Looking something like this:

SHADOW FIEND

Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)
Hit Dice: 10d8+30 (75 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
AC: 21 (+3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+14
Attack: Claw +14 melee (1d6+4 and energy drain)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +14 melee (1d6+4 and energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, shadow jump, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Shadow blend, aversion to daylight, see in darkness, DR 10/good, darkvision 60ft., fast healing 5, outsider traits, SR 22, immunity to electricity, poison, and energy drain effects, resist acid 10, cold 10 and fire 10, telepathy
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +8
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 18
Skills: Bluff +17, Climb +17, Concentration +20, Diplomacy +17, Hide +16, Knowledge (the planes) +15, Listen +14, Move Silently +16, Spellcraft +15, Spot +14
Feats: Combat Casting, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-like Ability (deeper darkness)
Environment: The Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Medium); 21-30 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +6

This humanoid has skin the color of the darkest onyx covering its body. It is completely devoid of any hair and it has long, swept-back ears similar to an elf. Small, black, leathery bat wings are on its back, suggesting this creature can fly but not very well. Its hands end in claws that seem to swirl with shadows and its eyes lack any definition, seeming to be oily pools of utter darkness.

Shadow fiends dwell in the Abyss and when they are encountered on the material plane, they are almost always found alone. Their passionate hatred for mortals prevents them from ever serving a powerful wizard or cleric that may be able to summon them and their betraying nature prevents them from serving other, more powerful fiends and demons. Thus, shadow fiends are mostly solitary creatures that attack anything and everything they can find, draining away the very life force of their enemies.

There are some rumors that tell shadow fiends are in fact an offshoot race of death fiends, a more powerful race of fiends with ties to energy draining abilities. However, shadow fiends have not shown any connection to the undead.

Shadow fiends are about 5 and a half feet tall and weigh around 200 pounds. Although they seem small, their natural strength sometimes gets the better of enemies who underestimate them. Shadow fiends speak Abyssal, Common, Draconic, and Elven.
Combat

Shadow fiends almost always take to the air and use Flyby Attack against stronger opponents. They surround the battlefield in deeper darkness since they can see perfectly in it and this usually causes severe problems for their enemies. Shadow fiends also make good use of their spell-like abilities to bring down larger groups of powerful spellcasters.

Energy Drain (Su): A living opponent hit by a claw attack of the shadow fiend must make a Fortitude save (DC 19) or gain a negative level. This save is Charisma-based.

Shadow Jump (Sp): The shadow fiend can move from one source of shadow to the next, as if using the dimension door spell. However, the shadow fiend must move from one source of shadow to another. The area or size of the shadow is irrelevant - it can be as small as a tiny bird's shadow or as large as one created from an ancient tower. This is used as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity and the shadow fiend does not need to cast a spell in order to use it. It simply moves from one source of shadow (a person's shadow, for example) and immediately moves to another source of shadow (a shadow created from the flickering flames of a torch). The sources of shadow cannot be more than 100 feet apart. The shadow fiend can only shadow jump once per round, and may not take anyone with him through his shadow jump, only himself and any held items. An area with total daylight may still create shadows at certain angles.

Shadow Blend (Su): During any conditions other than full daylight (but not a daylight spell), a shadow fiend can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment.

Aversion to Daylight (Su): Shadow fiends are creatures of utter darkness and are powerless in areas of complete and total daylight, where they cannot find any shadows to find shelter. In an area with no shadows at all (like the surface of a desert with no terrain features) it is treated as being stunned. This effect lasts for one round and then the shadow fiend takes 5d6 points of damage each round it spends in the natural daylight. A shadow fiend cannot use any of its spell-like or supernatural abilities until it has spent at least one full round in shadows. A daylight spell does not affect a shadow fiend, however a sunburst spell will affect it normally.

See in Darkness (Su): A shadow fiend can see perfectly in any form of darkness, even magical darkness and deeper darkness.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will - confusion, darkness, death knell, detect good, detect magic, dispel good, dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), hold monster, unholy blight. 3/day - deeper darkness. Caster level 12th. Save DC is 14 + spell level. These saves are Charisma-based.

Bit, nasty.  Certainly something more respectable then the XP machine they are now.

Greater Shadows on the other Hand are a 1d8 str drain touch attack that doesn't miss much.

Anyway, time for the morning work pile.

~Rex

[darkpriest]

A rather nasty creature unless you are a cleric....

[Rex]

Indeed.  Plus, a Shadow Fiend is an Outsider.  Not an Undead.  Different ball of Yarn there.  It's Energy Drain is a standard, and it can clobber you with spells, physical damage, etc etc etc.  Current Shadow fiend, is something of a pussbag.  Even in it's Greater Incarnation.

~Rex

[darkpriest]

Yeah in PnP i can already see the shadow jump behind spellcasters back and tearing him apart before he can even blink. Also it is a bad game design that it stops all stat draining at value 3 instead of allowing it to go down to "0" and do some really nasty effects up to death of a PC.

[Rex]

Really.  It should go to zero.  I do recall Dying once because of that unless it's some change they implemented and I haven't noticed it yet.  I tend not to miss that particular save but that would be a touch goofy if it stops at three now.

Biggest points I suppose, is that Shadow Fiends are Outsiders, Shadows are undead.  Some changes I think, would improve them in regards to the setting.

~Rex

[darkpriest]

wasn't the 3 a hard coded value in nwn? if it was changed and you actually could go down to 0 in PotM, then i guess you still can.. i know that in nwn you could go down to 0 with lvls and die but not with the stats

[Avatar6666]

Why would the drain be cha based save and not fort save?

Read the energy drain please,i dint get the save?

[Rex]

wasn't the 3 a hard coded value in nwn? if it was changed and you actually could go down to 0 in PotM, then i guess you still can.. i know that in nwn you could go down to 0 with lvls and die but not with the stats

I honestly can't recall.  I could swear I remember dying due to Negative stats.  When I get home I'll fire up my little module hop in and drain str off of something and see if it dies.

~Rex

[Rex]

Why would the drain be cha based save and not fort save?

One of the many COOL Outsider things.  Basically a mean ass slap in the face to people that Insist on making the Strength of their Personality a dump stat.  There are a few Critters like that.

~Rex

[darkpriest]

Why would the drain be cha based save and not fort save?

One of the many COOL Outsider things.  Basically a mean ass slap in the face to people that Insist on making the Strength of their Personality a dump stat.  There are a few Critters like that.

~Rex

Hence it is best to be charisma based paladin or blackguard... they are pretty well covered on all sides in terms of saves

[Rex]

Charisma is a rather Important Stat, especially if you are a paladin or a Blackguard, but even MORE so, if you are an Undead.  Your Force of Personality, replaces your Constitution.  Therefore, Milquetoast people tend to make weaker Undead unpeople.

~Rex

[failed.bard]

My dwarf paladin was dropped to zero strength by the touch attack drain from those shadows, and dropped from it.   I don't think that can happen from the normal shadows strength drain or poison though.

[Rex]

Definitely going to have to test that out.  0 stat, should = dead.

~Rex