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Author Topic: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change  (Read 9943 times)

Ric

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Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« on: September 08, 2008, 10:49:09 PM »
The STR-drain on the new Shadows are obscenely strong.  It's a touch-attack ability, which already makes it able to hit things very easily, and there's no save-throw check.

Crank their base-AB, remove that ability.  They already had on-hit str drain.  Giving them a touch-attack ability so spam over and over w/out a save throw is painfully hard and punishing.  This is even worse than the demonlogist KD-spamming junk.

Delphinidae

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2008, 11:00:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 11:07:47 PM by Delphinidae »


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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 04:44:44 AM »
Hum... Shadows? Just regular shadows... Don't think they've been altered at all...?

Heretic

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 04:56:08 AM »
Shadow Fiends on the custom palette - Undead - shadows.

They strenght drain without save.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 05:49:17 AM »
Shouldn't have been altered either...

failed.bard

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 07:22:19 AM »
  From what I've seen, the greater shadows do it, not the shadow fiends, and most times they attack without using the ability.  Neg energy protection potions/spells work against it, so I don't see the problem, really.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 08:19:01 AM »
Perhaps for once we should just calm down and and not make a storm in a teacup before we actually know what's going on? Seen a bit too much of that lately...

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 08:24:17 AM »
Pretty sure it was just a Joe Blow Shadow Fiend that nailed me with it yesterday.  No Save, which is kinda sucky for me being that's one of my few good ones, Touch attack I'm fine with pretty sure that's supposed to be a touch attack anyway.  Drains like 4 points a pop though so they'll kill anyone in about 5 hits or less.

Did Not notice if the attack was true of the Basic Shadow.  Just the Fiend, and it was not a Greater Fiend.

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 08:29:01 AM »
Must be the greater because the fiends do spam you with a dc 11 fort save or drain your str away.

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Ric

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 10:10:46 AM »
The thing is, the shadows already had a STR-Drain On Hit.  Having them now spam a touch-attack over and over w/out save is pretty bugger.  Also, if we just gave it a save, it wouldn't solve the problem, since then people would just have to crank their fortitude to bypass them, and then they wouldn't even need AC, since the touch-attack STR-drain doesn't do damage.

We were better off just keeping the shadows the way they were in terms of STR-Drain On Hit.  The only thing I would suggest is to raise their AB's to the 6-10 range as they scale up in difficulty.  One thing that always made Shadows & Fiends a joke was that their ABs were in the 4-6 range.  Not really a big threat, considering that their CR is made for level 10-range.  Just raise their AB and leave out the touch-attack spam.  It's the most balanced setup you could have.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 10:27:18 AM »
But... nothing has changed, so how can you say "we were better off"?

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 10:42:57 AM »
But... nothing has changed, so how can you say "we were better off"?

The Str Drain that I believe is being Discussed, is the NO SAVE ALLOWED one.  Slap you get Hit, you lose 4 points of Str.  It wasn't a Great, it was just a plain old Shadow Fiend nothing special.  Hit twice, Touch Attack, Zapped off 4 points of STR each Hit.  Neither of those Hits prompted a Save (And Otto is like +14 vs Neg Energy). 

I had queried on the DM channel as to what it was/happening. Since it Looked like a DM event but got no answer while it was going on.  Assumed DM was busy or had left.

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Ric

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 10:48:03 AM »
But... nothing has changed, so how can you say "we were better off"?

If nothing was changed to the monster, then maybe it was a special custom one.  The situation we were in was a DM-event.  Perhaps our DM just selected specific shadows from the pallete programmed to act differently.

I'll check out the shadows again without a DM and see if I'm right.

failed.bard

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 10:54:07 AM »
I just left the sullen woods, and none of the fiends attempted touch attacks.  The greater shadow I saw using one before was also DM controlled.

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 11:31:57 AM »
Well that answers the question then, Just a DM critter using it's Special Critter Powers.

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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 11:35:32 AM »
Just checked our creature palette. Only the Shadows and Greater Shadows has the strength draining attacks, but not as a touch attack and not without saves. If anything, it must have been the DM that possessed it and cast at a spell at you.

Ric

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2008, 02:14:50 PM »
Wasn't a DM possessing it, becuase the DM spawned a dozen or so of them on us, and all of them were spamming the attack.  That's really odd.  :shock:

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2008, 02:20:05 PM »
One that got me was definitely a Shadow Fiend, and It definitely, Used that Touch Attack.

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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2008, 06:19:15 PM »
Well, I'm at loss then... Any idea which DM it was? Would be nice with some input from said person... :)

Heretic

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2008, 06:24:15 PM »
Was me.

It was Shadow Fiends that STR drain. Testing it now, and it has no save.

Edit: Greater Shadows also STR drain with no save, only Touch attack rolls.

Edit 2:  Normal Shadows also STR drain with no save.


Seems all shadows on the custom palette have this ability to STR drain and there's no related save to it.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:30:31 PM by DM Heretic »

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2008, 07:52:24 PM »
Was me.

It was Shadow Fiends that STR drain. Testing it now, and it has no save.

Edit: Greater Shadows also STR drain with no save, only Touch attack rolls.

Edit 2:  Normal Shadows also STR drain with no save.


Seems all shadows on the custom palette have this ability to STR drain and there's no related save to it.



Talk about the Dim Mak.  Thought it was something like that.  If It had a save it would be Cool I like the Touch Attack Option anyway.  Need some Other types of Drain Critters out there.  Charisma Drain could have some interesting side effects.

:)


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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2008, 07:56:47 PM »
Ah, discovered it finally - was hidden in some creature variable that triggered custom AI. It shouldn't be something new though, and while I agree it seems rather powerful, it's perfectly compliant with the official rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm

Not sure at this point whether we'll dither from that, but feel free to open the discussion here then... :)

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2008, 08:06:16 PM »
Ah, discovered it finally - was hidden in some creature variable that triggered custom AI. It shouldn't be something new though, and while I agree it seems rather powerful, it's perfectly compliant with the official rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm

Not sure at this point whether we'll dither from that, but feel free to open the discussion here then... :)

Hmm, Well it is a Super Natural Ability.  I'm fine with it either way really for one thing it will make the Shadow A very respectable Foe.  No more charging into the fray of them wielding ones shadow beating stick.  If it were to remain such the XP should go up since that pretty much means a couple of hits....poof you're dead.

If it does get a Save, then that's based off this: Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

    10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

(Rex Note:  Charisma is the Super Stat for most Neg Energy fueled things like Undead Critters and Shadow thingies).

Now, It would be up to the PTB to decide, but I think with the sheer Amount of Shadows, perhaps a reduction in their number, an increase in their XP reward, possibly some Loot, if they are left with the Touch Attack of "Slap Yo Mamma", Might be worth a Save.

Shadow Fiends are a different type of Critter Altogether.......Don't think people really want to run into a Real Shadow Fiend.  Still though, a Touch attack Shadow right out of the book, would be a Nice addition.

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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2008, 08:15:12 PM »
Are you actually for once saying that you are against what's the official rules Rex? :D

There's no mention in the book of a save (and notice the (if any) in the quoted). I'll still give you though that it does make it quite powerful, but our CR is as the books as well...

Rex

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Re: Creatures - New Shadow STR Drain Change
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2008, 10:48:20 PM »
Are you actually for once saying that you are against what's the official rules Rex? :D

There's no mention in the book of a save (and notice the (if any) in the quoted). I'll still give you though that it does make it quite powerful, but our CR is as the books as well...

Hey I said I'm fine with it either way, I'm just saying, there's a lot OF them, and well, if they get adjusted, then their numbers should be pared down to the book levels since you can get Mobs of the Solitary ones. 

Wouldn't mind seeing the Real Shadow Fiends too.  But that's just me.  Almost positive there ISN'T a Save vs Shadow Str Drain (one book clarifies that or not I always ran them as NO save in table top per the olden days) which is one of the reasons they are so scary, and no one wants to be around a shadow dancer when they get killed in Ravenloft either.  SO, if it goes for the Touch Attack, Whack N Drain, no Save, I'm all for it.

Was just surprising to run into it in the dark when I was zoomed in on my boots that night.  Definitly makes one think twice about charging a Shadow.

~Rex
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