XP vs Risk vs Balance Vs Reward

[Rex]

Starting to notice a swing in general, ad the mid level range, of very dangerous and challenging groups of creatures, being worth squat in XP, while something trivial in comparison is churning out the XP.  Now, not knowing the details of how XP gained changes as you level up, I was wondering if others had noticed certain very challenging areas that are quite simple, not worth the time.  Fire off a few of what you guys have found and I'll match them to mine, and see if there is a definitive pattern.

~Rex

[Rex]

I figured I would start with this one, the Thoul Cave.  1st point, I like the upscaled Cave, though I still am not sure where the Thouls actually come from, why they work with Hobgoblins, and what they are really doing there.  As it stands it's a good Lower level dungoen (5th or so) for a group, and at high Spawn, WILL kill a non caster of up to 11th level or so.

Those new Witchlords, Fire off (eventually, AI thinks slow) fire sheath, fire balls, couple of other aura spells and summon dire wolves as well as invisible them selves etc.......Two of them can do some serious damage and you run into a lot more then two of them.  The Upper level Hobgoblins seem to be around the CR 8 or bit more range and actually take time to fight, and can Hurt most folks not "caster sized" into an AC/Buff-zilla.

Now this was a tough dungeon, and I call it one of the fighter dungeons because Even with all the Caster Monsters you can go all out Sword Swinging Arrows Flying FIGHT it style.  Now granted, half the time, you get no loot because the smash chest roll is to high (forcing people to multiclass into barbarian for a str surge or a caster for a buff, or thief for a pick), there's no traps anymore (kinda boring), and even though the fight is fun, even solo at around 11th level (hair raising actually on max spawn), no one wants to go because either the thouls regen to fast for low levels to kill, or anyone over 5th, doesn't get any XP. 

XP in this dungeon is woefully below that of the risk.  It's definitely dangerous, I pull dead folk out of it every couple of weeks, but it would be nice if the loot, and the xp, equaled the risk.

~Rex
 

[DM Tarokka]

Some of those nice guys even dispel And yes I have not the feeling after doing that I earn lots of xps...

EDIT: and even the nymph is not worthy the risk as far as xps are concerned (if you don't want to use any death ward potion of course). The same it happens with some hags always in Barovia and some night monsters with death gaze and all. Don't think at levels like 6th or 7th in  ap arty they give bunch of xps and the risks are high especially for non casters and melee combatants.

[failed.bard]

  If you get unlucky with the dispell spamming, thoul cave kills casters over 11th to.  I went there for tin, ran into one of the epic spawns, and had to retreat outside to rest midway through.  Almost died, and that was with a ftr 4 / wiz 11 character.  Next time I need tin, I'm going someplace easy like the were cave or ogres, because I can clear both of them with half the effort the thoul caves takes.
As far as reward there goes.  0 XP for lvl 15, 1000 fangs coin and items.  Not bad that way.

[Khuzadrepa]

Barovian Crypts:
Nessian Warhounds

Going through the crypt, running into ghouls and the giant flaming skeletons.  Enter a room which typically used to hold hellhounds and/or hellcats.

I see four Nessian Warhounds.  Think to myself, what are these?  One minute later, I am dead.  Running away didn't help one iota.

I'm all for balance and challenge, but in agreement with Rex in that these superdogs that do 21 or more points of damage per hit (not exaggerating) and seem to slice through AC like it is butter aren't exactly balanced with the rest of that dungeon, and definitely not at that spawn level  

The hellcats were challenging, but these... I felt like I was going against those scrags everyone keeps talking about.

Unfortunately, I had to lose a level to learn to never go there again.  Darn... earned that level over a year RL of occasional outings and mostly rp xp too.  Not really sure at this point I want to spend that much time regaining it.

Edit:  Sorry if my post sounds despondent, but as a casual player who can't play 24/7 I'm finding the risk vs. gains ratio is becoming increasingly frustrating.  I'm not a farmer and I don't care about 'awesome loot' but I just feel like things for my experience are stagnating at an increased rate.  I like slower developing PWs, but not standstills.
Of course, as always, my hat is off to the devs who work so hard at this.  Thanks

[Bad_Bud]

Barovian Crypts:
Nessian Warhounds

Going through the crypt, running into ghouls and the giant flaming skeletons.  Enter a room which typically used to hold hellhounds and/or hellcats.

I see four Nessian Warhounds.  Think to myself, what are these?  One minute later, I am dead.  Running away didn't help one iota.

I'm all for balance and challenge, but in agreement with Rex in that these superdogs that do 21 or more points of damage per hit (not exaggerating) and seem to slice through AC like it is butter aren't exactly balanced with the rest of that dungeon, and definitely not at that spawn level  

The hellcats were challenging, but these... I felt like I was going against those scrags everyone keeps talking about.

Unfortunately, I had to lose a level to learn to never go there again.  Darn... earned that level over a year RL of occasional outings and mostly rp xp too.  Not really sure at this point I want to spend that much time regaining it.

Edit:  Sorry if my post sounds despondent, but as a casual player who can't play 24/7 I'm finding the risk vs. gains ratio is becoming increasingly frustrating.  I'm not a farmer and I don't care about 'awesome loot' but I just feel like things for my experience are stagnating at an increased rate.  I like slower developing PWs, but not standstills.
Of course, as always, my hat is off to the devs who work so hard at this.  Thanks

You could have had someone save you and not lost the exp... :/

The spawns do make sense if you've been to the rest of the dungeon.  There's a trap door in there

I still am not sure where the Thouls actually come from, why they work with Hobgoblins, and what they are really doing there.

Examine a thoul next time you go there.  They have a pretty cool bio that explains why they're there and where they came from.

[ethinos]

Had Kurgh clear out the Thoul's a couple weeks ago on high spawn. I was dumbfounded when my Christmas tree troll-formed 'ban got hit with several dispels, bringing him to an instant halt, heh. Several witchlords, witchmasters, and some kind of overlord later, I finished the cave off. However, it took a rest midway through and nearly 20 minutes at a bare minimum, probably longer. Still, I believe I had one satisfied and one proud message. I was able to bash the chests open (thank you Rage/Troll form), but the earnings were pretty meager.

[Rex]

Not everyone has the OOC connections for the OOC rez.  Though nothing wrong with wandering around as a ghost for a bit if you have the time.  Been more then a few times I've just Respawned (hence why Rex has no High level PC's).  I know the Thoul Bio's, so I'll expand on that later.

I actually side on the point of "Holy Hell Get it Off!" as opposed to "Check out the rest of the dungeon Yo!", especially, if they have been there before and never had issues.

One thing I will bring up as a General point in regards to the topic.  TIRED of HIPS spamming 90% concealment monsters.  Anything in a group that has sneak attack is dangerous enough, it doesn't need to be 90% invulnerable, and Auto Hips the second you target them, turn them, KD them, disarm them, etc etc etc .......To many critters have been to the grand high Muckity Muck Tower of Arcane Power and Ninja 733t-Pwned Joo school.  Rather see more things like the Hobgoblin heroes, and less things that a 12th level fighter in full plate mail has to run from but a bard with Curse song can just Yodel and kill the whole room.  That's wonky.

There is a few Fighter Monsters out there I like but the really good ones, All have a fear Aura, or a great axe, or both.  Some non Aura, non Sword of Damocles Insta Kill on a Crit Fighter Monsters would be nice, and Not in a big group of guys where half are the Ninja spooks and the other half are spell spammers.

Bring on the Tergs.

As for Kurgh, well, should be open season on Anything in the form of a Troll. 

~Rex

[Khuzadrepa]

You could have had someone save you and not lost the exp... :/

The spawns do make sense if you've been to the rest of the dungeon.  There's a trap door in there

As Rex said, I don't really have the OOC hookups... most of the people I've encountered play baddies, and being one of the few goodies means I've got limited options there, unfortunately.

And I have seen the other half of the dungeon, but I've been to that room a number of times and hadn't seen anything quite that difficult there.  I don't mind being surprised, but when you are going through ghouls and then hit something like that, the reaction curve is a bit steep.

[Rex]

Yeah it's sort of an Exponential Increase in getting your ass kicked, as opposed to a Linear increase.

~Rex

[Bluebomber4evr]

The reason the Nessian Warhounds were in the one room while the weaker undead were in the preceding room is that they are part of two separate monster groups. Killing undead won't weaken the devils, and vice-versa. Nessian Warhounds are the high spawn for the devils group (weak spawn are normal hellhounds). Also keep in mind that the area was intended for higher levels who can take 21 points of damage in a single attack and then some.

[Bad_Bud]

As Rex said, I don't really have the OOC hookups... most of the people I've encountered play baddies, and being one of the few goodies means I've got limited options there, unfortunately.

Off topic:

The players here for the most part are very nice.  You can send messages to people you've hardly ever conversed with and ask them to save you, and generally you'll find someone somewhere on the player list that is willing to help you.  I know I've asked random people before, and I know I've been asked by random people before, and I don't have any problems with it.

[Rex]

As Rex said, I don't really have the OOC hookups... most of the people I've encountered play baddies, and being one of the few goodies means I've got limited options there, unfortunately.

Off topic:

The players here for the most part are very nice.  You can send messages to people you've hardly ever conversed with and ask them to save you, and generally you'll find someone somewhere on the player list that is willing to help you.  I know I've asked random people before, and I know I've been asked by random people before, and I don't have any problems with it.

And some people, stick to character and try not to.  I'm usually pretty gracious, with helping people out.  Especially in situations where it's Lag, or some Caster trained 90000 monsters to a transition and they stumbled into it.  On the other hand, I don't have to much sympathy for self inflicted Stupidity, so it balances out.

Sometimes, I've dropped the tell for a rescue to folks, but there is always at least SOME sort of connection to that PC, that can be played up upon story wise either before, during, or after.  Other times when I just couldn't justify it, up to an including turning down offers, I've just respawned, and more often then that, stayed Dead.  There is something to be said for remaining true to the roots so to speak and I can't even begin to cite the horrid repercussions of various drive by OOC resurections and such.

Now back on topic to that spawn Bomber was talking about.  I agree, those are tough critters for tough people.  But why are they in an area where lower level folks can easily trip over them (could be mistaken I can't get more then 2 steps into that area anyway).  I think this hearkens back, to the other thread dealing with the dvergeheim mines where maybe it's not so much a good idea that the lower levels can get into such areas easily (and by default, the other way around to I still think a high level power farming areas so beneath them that they can trivialize it, should spontaneously combust (examples Available, screen shots as well)).  Still seems off you could be cruising along, enjoying yourself battleing the undead you are capable of beating with a challenge, then BAMN! for some reason, there's Cthulu.

Need a touch more linear progression in some of these areas and a lot less wonky ninja monsters with exponential power growth.  It's starting to feel in some of these areas that the dungeons are designed to cater to the desires of the Grinders and Farmers, while the Players ( and yes you CAN over lap into all three categories), get eaten alive by things that really shouldn't be there at that time.  Kinda out of balance considering that from my observations, the Majority of the Players are not Grinders nor Farmers, but folks that can't play all the time, much as what was cited in the example leading to this discussion.

~Rex

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

The reason the Nessian Warhounds were in the one room while the weaker undead were in the preceding room is that they are part of two separate monster groups. Killing undead won't weaken the devils, and vice-versa. Nessian Warhounds are the high spawn for the devils group (weak spawn are normal hellhounds). Also keep in mind that the area was intended for higher levels who can take 21 points of damage in a single attack and then some.

that maybe true blue but how many folks realize that and even from an ic perspective i think thats a bit off personally. I mean why would the strength of say weak spawn undead then through ONE room and door high spawn warhounds that a group of say 5-7 cant handle or have a chance to get nailed by especially if its a group of new folks or old folks not rping knowledge of those things in there. just a thought i guess

[Bad_Bud]

Now back on topic to that spawn Bomber was talking about.  I agree, those are tough critters for tough people.  But why are they in an area where lower level folks can easily trip over them (could be mistaken I can't get more then 2 steps into that area anyway).  I think this hearkens back, to the other thread dealing with the dvergeheim mines where maybe it's not so much a good idea that the lower levels can get into such areas easily (and by default, the other way around to I still think a high level power farming areas so beneath them that they can trivialize it, should spontaneously combust (examples Available, screen shots as well)).  Still seems off you could be cruising along, enjoying yourself battleing the undead you are capable of beating with a challenge, then BAMN! for some reason, there's Cthulu.

 

Need a touch more linear progression in some of these areas and a lot less wonky ninja monsters with exponential power growth.  It's starting to feel in some of these areas that the dungeons are designed to cater to the desires of the Grinders and Farmers, while the Players ( and yes you CAN over lap into all three categories), get eaten alive by things that really shouldn't be there at that time.  Kinda out of balance considering that from my observations, the Majority of the Players are not Grinders nor Farmers, but folks that can't play all the time, much as what was cited in the example leading to this discussion.

The only reason the dungeons are at a level that requires a high level person or party is because it was not powergrinded or farmed.  If it was, it wouldn't be so difficult.  As Khuzadrepa said, he'd never seen the spawn that high before.  I guess there's a first time for anything, and you learn from your death or mistake.  I think what sucks the worst is when you bump into a monster for the first time and discover that it has death magic, other than that, I don't think you can relate most of these dungeons as things low levels simply stumble into.  Even the ML crypt can turn into a low level immediate killer.  I remember running like hell the first time I ran into a skeleton warrior on the top level of the crypt, but I knew from that point on not to mess with those.

Also, travelling in parties prevents low level characters from travelling to a far away dungeon and ending up dead and alone.  Low levels are almost always very willing to travel in parties, so when you DO stumble upon something that was clearly a terrible mistake, usually only one of the members dies -- unless they stay and fight and all die for whatever odd reason -- leaving at least one character to either go get high level help, or come back prepared to try to rescue the dead folk.  I don't think stumbling into hard areas really applies unless you're talking about the ghosts in the Barovian swamp that use the death howl that can kill an entire party in an instant, but even then, honestly, what low level that doesn't know what he's doing wanders all the way off to Barovia?  The road to get there is mean, and should serve as a warning to those taking it.

[Rex]

Now back on topic to that spawn Bomber was talking about.  I agree, those are tough critters for tough people.  But why are they in an area where lower level folks can easily trip over them (could be mistaken I can't get more then 2 steps into that area anyway).  I think this hearkens back, to the other thread dealing with the dvergeheim mines where maybe it's not so much a good idea that the lower levels can get into such areas easily (and by default, the other way around to I still think a high level power farming areas so beneath them that they can trivialize it, should spontaneously combust (examples Available, screen shots as well)).  Still seems off you could be cruising along, enjoying yourself battleing the undead you are capable of beating with a challenge, then BAMN! for some reason, there's Cthulu.

 

Need a touch more linear progression in some of these areas and a lot less wonky ninja monsters with exponential power growth.  It's starting to feel in some of these areas that the dungeons are designed to cater to the desires of the Grinders and Farmers, while the Players ( and yes you CAN over lap into all three categories), get eaten alive by things that really shouldn't be there at that time.  Kinda out of balance considering that from my observations, the Majority of the Players are not Grinders nor Farmers, but folks that can't play all the time, much as what was cited in the example leading to this discussion.

The only reason the dungeons are at a level that requires a high level person or party is because it was not powergrinded or farmed.  If it was, it wouldn't be so difficult.  As Khuzadrepa said, he'd never seen the spawn that high before.  I guess there's a first time for anything, and you learn from your death or mistake.  I think what sucks the worst is when you bump into a monster for the first time and discover that it has death magic, other than that, I don't think you can relate most of these dungeons as things low levels simply stumble into.  Even the ML crypt can turn into a low level immediate killer.  I remember running like hell the first time I ran into a skeleton warrior on the top level of the crypt, but I knew from that point on not to mess with those.

Also, travelling in parties prevents low level characters from travelling to a far away dungeon and ending up dead and alone.  Low levels are almost always very willing to travel in parties, so when you DO stumble upon something that was clearly a terrible mistake, usually only one of the members dies -- unless they stay and fight and all die for whatever odd reason -- leaving at least one character to either go get high level help, or come back prepared to try to rescue the dead folk.  I don't think stumbling into hard areas really applies unless you're talking about the ghosts in the Barovian swamp that use the death howl that can kill an entire party in an instant, but even then, honestly, what low level that doesn't know what he's doing wanders all the way off to Barovia?  The road to get there is mean, and should serve as a warning to those taking it.

You're missing the point.  The point wasn't that, you wander around and stumble into an area which hasn't been ground up into fine dust, and get whacked by progressively harder critters, it's that you are cruising along, well in your comfort zone, going....Goblin.....Goblin.....Goblin.....Goblin.......ZOMG!!! PIT FIEND?!!!!!   *run run die*  It's that exponential Jump.  Something btw, that you Do Not have in the ML crypt, where you can see the growth of the spawn strength reflected in the grouping of creatures.  Combine that exponential jump that, let's say, you are in for the fight of you life, you barely win, you feel cool as all hell, strut a bit, then kick open the chest the CR 40 creature was guarding, and find, two fans a piece of garlic and some darts?  Then you get to rest, after a battle that took hours of your real time, and all of your skill, and well, hardley anything has passed, wasn't stressful at all, that sort of thing.

Also, the party issue.  Much like the Respawn Issue, some people will stay in character, when the character dictates that they do not hang out with certain types of pc's.  Not everyone just Ignores the details in the name of the reward.

~Rex

[ThAnswr]

Not everyone has the OOC connections for the OOC rez. 

Although I am not ingame much anymore, if I am ingame,  there is no such thing as not having "the OOC connections for the OOC rez".  Just send me a tell.  If I can help, I will and I guarantee it'll be RP'd out if that's important for the immersion.   

[Nightmare]

Spiders Lair

Queen Spiders. Not THE Queen Spider. Queen Spiders. These things are harder than the supposed boss monster, and come in packs of 2-3.

Who designed something that casts greater-stoneskin and one other buff spell, couldn't ID it, and chews apart an entire party of around level 11-12 in a minute or less? And a better question, -WHY?- Dorin told me he fought some of them, as a level 16 Paladin, and could barely beat 2-3 of them even using his Holy Sword spell.

This is the queen spiders abilities, as I gathered...

HP: Well over a hundred, at the very least.
Touch Attack Web (AKA guaranteed hit against anyone with their AB),
Greater Stoneskin, Unknown Spell,
+17 or more AB,
DC 26 Poison doing 3d6 str damage.

Overkill for a basic spider foe, imho.

My biggest problem with all of this is, its been happening to every dungeon. The High level dungeons I'm fine with, those are supposed to be a big challenge, and should get hard as hell. Its the fact that dungeons of mid to low level have been ramped up to the point that it takes an increase of about 5 levels for what the place is originally intended. And if it was intended to prevent A: Ninjalooting, B: Grinding, C: Farming, its failed. As several people have stated, it doesn't stop their high levels from taking these places solo, it just makes it impossible for anyone with a real reason to go to these places to survive long enough to yell: "Run away!"

And if I sound virulent bitter and angry, I don't mean to offend anyone directly, my statements are broadened and general. Anyone who takes direct offense will be completely ignored in my eyes.

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

honestly nightmare hit it dead on i gotta lvl 5 who cant even tackle three emaciated wolves without taking damage out the arse and he's got decent equipment too

[Helaman]

Someone decided to play with the spawns - that said I'm not entirely disappointed - its a great idea to have variable spawns and to have tougher stuff. It just looks like it went over the top thats all.

I was a HUGE fan of the variable spawn in the Thoul cave when you got tougher Hobs and thouls but it never had fireball casting hobgoblins back then, I love whisper spiders etc but those queen spiders are waaaay over the top. If you don't have GMW you are toast - its that simple.

Scrags have been a bugbear of mine for a while - they are simply insane. I've been in parties where the minimum level was 15 and we had casters out the wazoo buffing the fighters and more oft than not it resulted in multiple PC deaths... and while I used kamakaze tactics the others did not.

[EO]

We haven't touched anything really. All you see is the results of fixing the spawn rates a while ago. People were complaining that spawns were too low, so Soren looked into it and found a problem that was causing spawns to respawn too slowly; this was fixed and now spawns respawn much faster. All it means is that the areas aren't cleared often enough and the populations are allowed to grow to their near maximum.

However, some may respawn too fast; if you notice areas getting back to insanely high spawns in no time, report that.

[mayvind]

We haven't touched anything really. All you see is the results of fixing the spawn rates a while ago. People were complaining that spawns were too low, so Soren looked into it and found a problem that was causing spawns to respawn too slowly; this was fixed and now spawns respawn much faster. All it means is that the areas aren't cleared often enough and the populations are allowed to grow to their near maximum.

However, some may respawn too fast; if you notice areas getting back to insanely high spawns in no time, report that.

I love the spawn dont change anything !!!  my level 18 mage gnome actuary run like hell when suddenly he was chased by 20 werewolves with spaming knockdown that really wake me up, love it !!! people always complain !!! 

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

EO is right, although, one thing that I did change was bringing in power variations in areas that didn't have them - e.g., in the spider cave before, a giant spider would be a giant spider and never evolve to anything more powerful at higher spawn levels. This has changed the challenge-balance, and if it's now off, please help us track these things down.

Regarding the nessian warhounds next to low level spawns, I do agree that it might be fair to more clearly mark the move from one groups' territory to another - I think the best way would be with a good amount of descriptions and placeables signifying that this is something different and you should be on your toes. We can look at that, and again, if it's a problem elsewhere, please let us know.

However, in general, the systems are designed to keep people on their toes and create a more dynamic experience. Sometimes, an area will be for low-mid levels, and sometimes the same area could be for the highest levels. It's a lot of work to achieve this though, tuning everything, but this is the general idea. I've made sure to print data on spawn levels and will analyze it soon to see where it's constantly high or low, but again, feedback always welcome and appreciated

[k_moustakas]

QUEEN spider is my favourite monster. If played out properly it's very easy to kill and yields loads of experience. And did you know that if you kill the boss queen, after a while a small one polymorphs into a big one? If only the cocoons weren't ninja-ed like a virgin teen in a harley convention...

[Helaman]

Ninja-ed wouldn't be the word I'd use to describe that analogy.

PM on the Queen spider thing because they can make mincemeat out of my better characters