Author Topic: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse  (Read 19781 times)

ThAnswr

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2008, 02:56:30 PM »
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.

So in other words, the Vardo can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permadeath for the Vardo? 

And, yes we all understand actions have consequences.  I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permadeath) except by certain other faction members. 
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2008, 03:00:00 PM »
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.

So in other words, the Vardo can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permadeath for the Vardo? 

And, yes we all understand actions have consequences.  I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permadeath) except by certain other faction members. 

Yes, any Vardo can be killed, permanently.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2008, 03:01:13 PM »
Actually, I've stated that all the complaints that have been brought to the CC regarding the Red Vardo, have and are being listened to, and Fallen as Head DM, has also stated that the Head DM Team is also sharing ideas regarding the role of the Red Vardo in this setting.

Nobody knows what the outcome will be, but so long as folks can keep a cool head, without demanding we squeeze orange juice from an apple, the outcome will be productive and a benefit.  

The task is to weed out the misconceptions from the valid concerns when we study formal complaints.  One player might bring to us some very well thought out criticism that makes sense, that we can learn from, and then provide suggestions for improvement to the dm team, while another might be on an emotional rampage, prattling off about the failure of the admistration, and really taking things to an unhealthy level, where it almost seems the only thing that will please them is a "Yes, you are absolutely correct, and this place is awful, and please....become our leader and lead us from the darkness into the light!."


One question that I almost always ask, whether I am on the dm ship with a player and dm trying to resolve a problem, or in the forum, is ask the person upset this question:  What would you like to see as the outcome here?  Ideally, in the best of all worlds, what do you think is a fair resolution?  

We also might have a player or more who just doesn't appreciate what PoTm is striving for, and when they don't get the reaction they want from the community, or dms, or the Council, they then suffer from conspiracy theories, or they place themsevles into the role of victum.  


Red Vardo are not untouchable.  However, they have resoruces and power.  The Dwellers had been given a reason to wipe some of the Red Vardo out, but instead, other alternatives took shape, and the Red Vardo managed to buy their lives in time.  

You see, with every power, there is a flip side.  The Red Vardo depend upon being accessible.  They own property that can burn down.  They also can't go into hiding for long if they fear for their lives, since then they won't be able to sell their goods.  So the Red Vardo, may have learned from experience, that using their heads instead of violence will be more profitable in most conflicts, because there will be a backlash.  

The Dwellers' power isn't in money, so much as the fact they have nothing to lose.  I mean...they live in the freaking sewers, in a place called the Drain.  The fact they not much to lose, means that if anyone becomes their enemy, watch out.  

The undead....well...the dynamic between the living and the undead takes shape.  Having the undead factions, with some rather powerful characters among them, gives all the other factions a good reason to put their difference aside and work together towards protecting Vallaki.  

If you look at the Red Vardo, Ml Cult, Guards, Church of Ezra, they do have an invested interest in seeing Vallaki protected and prosperous.  A faction like the rebels can make things very interesting ethically for good aligned factions or characters.  They are after all fighting for the liberation of thier people, against a tyrant, who is believed to be an undead witch.  

Red Vardo can provide help to the guard in trying to blow the cover of any Gundaraktie Rebels.  The Gundarakite Rebels can find some help secretly among the Cult of the Morninglord.  And the play goes on and on.  

So the factions ought to keep one another in some sort of balance or check.  When one faction becomes too brutal, another steps in.  If the Guard Faction becomes too dominating, despite the law on their side, they too will have a back lash.  I think we've seen that just recently.  The Barovians have the internal conflict of having to rely on some outlanders that they would rather not, in order to succeed in protecting Vallaki.  

These are the things I appreciate about PoTm, and has made my summer vacation worth my while.  




  
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 03:06:04 PM by Iconoclast »

ThAnswr

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2008, 03:05:03 PM »
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.

So in other words, the Vardo can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permadeath for the Vardo? 

And, yes we all understand actions have consequences.  I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permadeath) except by certain other faction members. 

Yes, any Vardo can be killed, permanently.

Thank you.  That simple statement probably just extinguished half the frustration out there.   :clap:
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2008, 03:43:59 PM »
Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month.
There's a new generation of Vardo I guess you could say. Put your OOC frusterations and hostility about the Vardo behind you, and try to move on. Cooperating with the Vardo is by far more beneficial then going against it.

Cheers. :)
Heh... Thraxys has IC hatred of the Vardo and most likely never trust them for the things done in the past ICly. It is a persistant world, and it has IC history. That IC history cannot be conveniently buried. As for OOC, whatever... I am playing a game, and making stories, that is why I play. If the story has a happy ending or tragic, it's all good, but the actions of the past are part of that story, so to say, "those were bad times, lets move past them" doesn't work for me ICly, but OOCly, cool beans and I hope it makes for a kinder, gentler Merchant/Mercenary/Assassin Faction that is more friendly to players and contribute more to the overall enjoyment of the faction and the server.

Luv ya OOC, IC... I would cheerfully strangle the life out of the vardo, all in the name of fun :D
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 03:48:38 PM by LawfulJoe »

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2008, 03:53:47 PM »
:ahem:
The Red Vardo Traders have been getting hammered by DM's and other factions alike (with good RP reason!). I love how everyone assumes that everyone that beats them has some sort of connection or power- they don't. The Red Vardo have been, until recently, treading on very thin ice rebuilding their reputation which was shattered by the very characters who caused you to hate the Vardo in the first place. Characters who are now -dead-.

Don't pin your OOC frustrations on us. That just makes US frustrated. I've seen nothing here but misguided and misdirected hatred at what you don't understand- if you want to do that keep it IC, don't bring it to OOC and make it personal. As for the completly uninformed belief Vardo are bullet proof, More Vardo have been killed by OTHER VARDO then anything else. What other Faction kills it's own members? None except the guard on one or two rare occasions. Being a Vardo carries risk of being perma'd by your own faction more then any other- two captains and one advisory all killed for failing the family.

And for the record, ICly? The Current Vardo are trying to balance common sense and savvy over blatent violence. Julia Colds is gone. All the others are gone. The only ranking members are more or less new.

So keep your IC predjudices if you want, thats just roleplay. Don't complain OOCly because I'm working hard and getting things done though, it belittles our personal accomplishments.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2008, 04:10:16 PM »
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Var do, and the Var do find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.

So in other words, the Var do can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permeate for the Var do? 

And, yes we all understand actions have consequences.  I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permeate) except by certain other faction members. 

Yes, any Var do can be killed, permanently.

Thank you.  That simple statement probably just extinguished half the frustration out there.   :clap:

For the record. No PC from any faction is untouchable, NP C's a differing matter we just can't kill Stared of as what would be the point of the server then. :P

Red Vardo is the current powerhouse faction with a ton of members. I guarantee that will change, it always does. :twisted:

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2008, 04:13:09 PM »
Quote
Red Vardo is the current powerhouse faction with a ton of members. I guarantee that will change, it always does.

I don't think we're talking about the same faction here, we got 3-4 members top. And we have the same power that the faction has ever had at any point. The same power any faction has, in different means.

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Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2008, 04:22:59 PM »
Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month.
There's a new generation of Vardo I guess you could say. Put your OOC frusterations and hostility about the Vardo behind you, and try to move on. Cooperating with the Vardo is by far more beneficial then going against it.

Cheers. :)
Heh... Thraxys has IC hatred of the Vardo and most likely never trust them for the things done in the past ICly. It is a persistant world, and it has IC history. That IC history cannot be conveniently buried. As for OOC, whatever... I am playing a game, and making stories, that is why I play. If the story has a happy ending or tragic, it's all good, but the actions of the past are part of that story, so to say, "those were bad times, lets move past them" doesn't work for me ICly, but OOCly, cool beans and I hope it makes for a kinder, gentler Merchant/Mercenary/Assassin Faction that is more friendly to players and contribute more to the overall enjoyment of the faction and the server.

Luv ya OOC, IC... I would cheerfully strangle the life out of the vardo, all in the name of fun :D

Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough! I was asking people to put their -OOC- hatred for the Vardo behind them. I wouldn't ask for that IC, as it's.. Well. Not cool.  :P
Quote
I don't think we're talking about the same faction here, we got 3-4 members top. And we have the same power that the faction has ever had at any point. The same power any faction has, in different means.

Agree with Nef here. :thumbup:

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2008, 04:30:18 PM »
The Red Vardo aren't a powerhouse faction. We're just now starting to gain ground and grow. And I don't mean like when the bullcrap oil companies say they're just getting by. Honestly, people completly missed us at our low point, because the Faction played it off so well. There was a time when everyone who was anyone hated the Vardo and the guards were raiding their headquarters for the hell of it.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2008, 05:13:28 PM »
The RVT recently got, well I'll just say it, they pretty much got bitch slapped by the Brood then turned around and got bitch slapped again by the Guard. They created enemies and paid the penalty for it.

The Morninglordian Faction recently got slapped by the guard. Before that, the ML Faction slapped the Brood. Before that the Guard had been slapped by the Dwellers. The Dwellers got slapped around by someone before that. And the Rebel/Guard slap fight is continual.

By my count, only ones who haven't gotten ripped a proverbial new one are the ezrites. Though don't think it may not be coming.  :twisted:

Point is, when a faction gets too big for it's britches, they always manage to piss off the wrong person and will pay the piper for it. No faction is immune from it, I promise.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2008, 05:16:09 PM »
Inferno made a really good point on how the Factions end up balancing themselves out. Though this isn't limiting to just Factions. Non-Faction players can also "Slap around" a Faction, and they have, if it's done right. Even if their may be consequences.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2008, 05:17:31 PM »
The Morninglordian Faction recently got slapped by the guard.

that was unintentional honest!  :lol:

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2008, 05:25:27 PM »
Non-Faction players can also "Slap around" a Faction, and they have, if it's done right. Even if their may be consequences.

This is highly true. I remember when one character, who was not uber powerful in levels, nor anything like that pretty much single handedly took down a very powerful faction completely on her own. It was one of the strongest factions around, then when she got through they were pretty much short of members. And the character in question was not a PvP powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination.

The character and player in question did that by highly smart and sophisticated role play. Destroying a faction doesn't always come down to who has the highest AB/AC or who can cast the highest level spells.  ;)

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2008, 05:27:45 PM »
If you feel like this, why hasn't there been these complaints been issued to the CC? The CC can't read minds nor can it act without complaints or issues being brought up to it.

Actually the Council has received several complaints in recent weeks on this very topic. A good many are based on speculation and rumour, some have had more substance. The issue of the RVT in particular is being looked at as well as other faction dynamics.

Many of the issues are in fact based on perception. The RVT get blamed for a great many things that they are in fact not responsible for. The perception that they can perma kill at will is also quite inaccurate. They do require the verdict from a higher power, DM EO.

Speaking from experience as both an officer of the Red Vardo and a former semi rival there are many ways to deal with them.If you wish to be in direct opposition to them you must have other powers behind you, but it is possible. I remember early in my time on POTM thinking they were this terrible thing, that they controlled everything and that they ruined peoples fun. In time I developed ways to keep them at bay and eventually had some degree of protection by them. It was very daunting when I was a 2nd lvl vampire with a handful of allies, I was simply out classed. However when I had an organization that was actually as large if not larger than theirs it became a much less oppressive relationship. Also the Vardo is quite capable of compromise, many players are not.

As Nef stated, at present you are really only talking about 4 people. The faction is in a shambles and are the most vulnerable I have ever known them to be. Members have left in large number and they are regrouping. They get dumped on by the Count, by the guard and by their NPC leaders, this is not an insurmountable force. It is true that as a faction they have the power of perma killing, but that does not mean one cannot enlist the aid of other factions to do the dirty work for them. A little manipulation, a little bargaining and many things can happen.

In summary, the staff are looking at setting a better balance, the factions power is greatly overstated and much of this can be dealt with IC, it just takes some imagination. Not everything you hear in game is true, and some happily let the Vardo get blamed for things they have done. If your characters are feeling bullied or harassed then think about the situation IC. Nef herself recently had an organization that rivaled the Vardo without the faction benefits, I have done the same as have others before me. This is actually an exciting opportunity in game at the moment. I see so many possibilities for people that want to fight back, all it takes is the belief you can and to find a few like minded people, which clearly there is an abundance of.
~Taty~

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2008, 05:32:46 PM »
The character and player in question did that by highly smart and sophisticated role play. Destroying a faction doesn't always come down to who has the highest AB/AC or who can cast the highest level spells.  ;)

Nor does it always mean you have to go and hunt down those Vardo/Guard members, and outright perma'kill them. There are other methods to abide by, most more fulfilling and fun. Methods that I myself would rather go by. :)

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2008, 05:38:10 PM »
Non-Faction players can also "Slap around" a Faction, and they have, if it's done right. Even if their may be consequences.

This is highly true. I remember when one character, who was not uber powerful in levels, nor anything like that pretty much single handedly took down a very powerful faction completely on her own. It was one of the strongest factions around, then when she got through they were pretty much short of members. And the character in question was not a PvP powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination.

The character and player in question did that by highly smart and sophisticated role play. Destroying a faction doesn't always come down to who has the highest AB/AC or who can cast the highest level spells.  ;)

And it was fun too :)

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2008, 06:35:10 PM »
The Morninglord Faction was never powerful either. The delusion that any faction is 'powerful' is just that- a delusion, a vanity.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2008, 06:38:41 PM »
Honestly, all the factions have enough 'power' and 'influence' to permakill an enemy of the faction. The Vardos are simply more openly antagonistic. Personally, I think the Undead factions are more deadly than the Vardos ever could be.
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2008, 06:47:23 PM »
The Morninglord Faction was never powerful either. The delusion that any faction is 'powerful' is just that- a delusion, a vanity.

Powerful is a relative term and power comes in many forms. If you do not consider a group with some near epic characters and decent numbers powerful I suppose you are difficult to impress, but when compared to other factions they are in physical power. Just as the guard while possesing few high level characters has the power of the law behind them, the power to bounty and to execute, to me that is power. Compare any faction to a lone individual who has few contacts and little money and they are more powerful, they can cause more effect on the world than the invidual. It is not vanity, it is realistic in relative terms.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2008, 07:21:33 PM »
I don't know who all read the Incarnations of Imortality series by Piers Anthony, but the book of the Devil was interesting. The Devil in these books up was a manipulating son of a... and powerful, so you really learned to respect and hate him. When you read his book you learn his secret. The Devil has no power, except for the all powerful lie that he does and is all powerful. As long as people believe he has power, he does. So for the Prince of Lies, his all powerful strength is completely based on the Lie that he is all powerful.

I see this in many ways like the Vardo. They have connections and resources, but their out reaching power is an illusion. There is strength in numbers with any group, but with the Vardo, they are the one standing up and waving theri arms saying "Look how much influence I have!! You are helpless against us!" and as long as we believe this is true... it is. ;) Which in my opinion is cool! :D

Peasants over throw kings, Unions crush Megacorps, Mobs bring down the vilest of killers. Alone, a Vardo, undead, Dweller, etc. is weak, but as a group, united and together, noone will stand against you and survive.... etc another group, that is unite and together.

Believe me, Thraxys was ready to start stacking up Vardo like cord wood, but the repercussions for such an act would have been his undoing. The character is a survivor, not a killing machine, and he logiced out that if he avenged his friends against the Vardo, he could not bring down the organization, only a few individual Vardo. To him the organization was vast a massive, a total IC and OCC impression I got from RP and experience. The example used was "it would have been like stabbing a red dragon in the toe, serving only to draw the attention of the much more dangerous fire breathing end." Whether the Vardo were true this powerful I will never know, but it did appear that. Had me jumping at shadows and thinking that anyone could possibly be a Vardo operative. I did not even know there was an OCC inititive to bring them down, it was all IC as far as I knew, and an on going plot... which simply went away. I was looking forward to gang warfare, and seeing if the new or old vardo would come out on top. But alas, this did not come to pass... and messed up the story :P Anyway, moving on, watching Lucian like a hawk when he and I am around and thinking that the Vardo are everywhere, even if OOC they are not. :P

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2008, 02:50:50 AM »
Honestly, all the factions have enough 'power' and 'influence' to permakill an enemy of the faction. The Vardos are simply more openly antagonistic. Personally, I think the Undead factions are more deadly than the Vardos ever could be.

I'm pretty sure the undeads have done some nasty purges of the vardo ranks.  From what I've heard.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2008, 08:04:18 AM »
Cherry, Lila, Danielle, were all killed by the Vardo, then again i think Ileanna spent some times in their clutches too, Vardo are not immune

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2008, 09:46:48 AM »
Cherry, Lila, Danielle, were all killed by the Vardo, then again i think Ileanna spent some times in their clutches too, Vardo are not immune

No, Lila was killed during the battle between the ML faction and the Undead. 
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2008, 10:19:08 AM »
Cherry, Lila, Danielle, were all killed by the Vardo, then again i think Ileanna spent some times in their clutches too, Vardo are not immune

No, Lila was killed during the battle between the ML faction and the Undead. 

  It was mainly vardo in the room when Lila died, though, and it was probably a vardo that ended up killing her, so... still mostly correct in whar Nef said.