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Author Topic: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse  (Read 13205 times)

ThAnswr

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2008, 11:26:05 AM »
I think my char was right next to Lila, but it was a big battle and anything could've happened.   I think I remember Danielle was there too and she was somewhat upset.  :D
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2008, 11:29:40 AM »
A lot of IC behind the scenes stuff behind that death though.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2008, 11:31:50 AM »
ALOT of behind the scenes stuff.  ;)

ThAnswr

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2008, 11:36:50 AM »
I know.   :mrgreen:

Let's stop the code right here.   :lol:
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 11:41:39 AM by ThAnswr »
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2008, 03:12:55 PM »
Cherry, Danielle, Lila, Julia, Marek, Martin, Illeanna, all PC's who have been Permakilled, Monsterized, Dark Lorded, or Monsterized and Permakilled, or otherwise "killed' In the conventional fashion if not the can no longer play fashion, by or due to the involvement of the Red Vardo.

And all of them Red Vardo Pc's, all of them of rank 2 or higher.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2008, 07:58:45 PM »
It's annoying even when it's Vardo on Vardo, because when the Red Vardo traders kill people, it tends to more or less end up as the character suddenly being gone.  There is no closure to the story, you just turn the page and find the back cover of the book.

I think this might be why noone is raising concerns about the guard faction, because everyone knows in character who gets killed and why, giving the story an ending, instead of people forever wondering if the victim jumped off a cliff, found a way out of the mists, or became a werewolf's dinner.

Ileanna Antropov?  No one knows and no one has a reason to talk about her abnormal absense.


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2008, 08:07:34 PM »
For a good reason.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2008, 08:13:03 PM »
If too many people go missing, and all fingers begin to point in one direction, they will add up to something.  Antropov as a Barovian, former guard, crafter, and then Red Vardo....her not being seen around will be noted.  Vallaki is a small village, not some large city where a missing person here and there might not make much waves.  Some of the factions start off as part of the setting, but nothing promises that that faction's place is unconditionally secured.  In other words, the Red Vardo, the Cult of the Morninglord, the Church of Ezra, and such could be lawfully thrown out of Vallaki, if the story events ever support such a dramatic conclusion.

I had the idea the other day of creating a thread in the Accouncment section to list all missing persons reports.  It might make things interesting.




 


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2008, 08:14:51 PM »
For a good reason.

I'm pretty sure what Bad_Bud is saying, is that there is an enormous difference between an ending, and actual closure to a story.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2008, 08:17:03 PM »
For a good reason.

In character, yes, but using out of character logic for the in character enjoyment of other players, I think it sucks when people disappear.  It's not just the Vardo, but I know the Vardo are involved in several disappearances.


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2008, 08:25:10 PM »
And I was simply stating that there was a good reason behind a certain disappearance, if it were to occur. We don't just off players. Alot of things happening in the background that you might not be privy too.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2008, 08:31:35 PM »
And I was simply stating that there was a good reason behind a certain disappearance, if it were to occur. We don't just off players. Alot of things happening in the background that you might not be privy too.

Ugh, yes, I know, but that's not what my point is.

I don't care if there's a good reason or not.

My point, and also I believe the consensus of the original topic, is that death should have a large impact on the world, not constantly be teased.  I take that consensus and conclude that death should be something that impacts a majority of the server; by causing a death and having nearly every player on the server "not be privy" to that event makes the death, in my opinion, somewhat of a waste.

Edit: We had a topic not too long ago where players expressed their concerns that they wished they could make more of an impact on the game world.  A snuffing of a character is a lack of an impact to the game world.  To the character causing the death there is probably a large impact, but to everyone else, without proper closure, there is none.  They might as well be another Jeggred Mason and stop logging on to the server (or at least with that character).  The impact is the same.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 08:34:42 PM by Bad_Bud »


Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2008, 08:34:41 PM »
Differant viewpoints, and differant opinions.

I understand your point, and I just don't agree with it.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2008, 09:11:33 PM »
From what I gather from what I've read thus far.  The Vardo have successfully ingrained fear into the minds of characters... IC and OOC.  It seems that the perception of what happens is worse than the stats.  In real life, the fear of crime is a bigger problem than crime itself.  I think it's interesting.
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2008, 09:22:03 PM »
The disappearance of people does have impacts on the community:

 :arrow: With the removal of Illianna of the Red Vardo the 'discussion' on a guild being established fell apart.

 :arrow: With the removal of Danielle the players behind a group set out to take over the Red Vardo fell apart. Further they could have been instrumental in discussions on a guild.

 :arrow: With the removal of Father Celurion died the Morninglord faction floundered for months OOC'ly. It has only recently begun to flourish again.

 :arrow: With the removal of Callous the vampires hunting the outskirts have diminished.

 :arrow: With the removal of Tagdar, nice statue by the way, the dwarven rebellion has floundered.

 :arrow: With the removal of Lila the Morninglordians gained entry into the undead factions old base for a massive battle of PC forces among many other impacts.

 :arrow: With the removal of the vampire Tatyana fewer evil PC's are uniting to fight together as a force. Most of the server was actively involved in hunting the one PC.

 :arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.

I respectfully disagree the quiet removal of a player has no significance.

failed.bard

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2008, 09:58:46 PM »
Quote
  :arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.

I'm not sure about Drudoc's and Samira's executions, I wasn't there for them, but Dribo's was /quite/ public.  There must have been at least a dozen people that very pointedly got the message to not side with undead, witches, and the like.

I think that's more the situation most players are comfortable with, as opposed to just simply disappearing.  Odd, really, considering how Dribo died.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2008, 10:09:11 PM »
*mumbles about the statue*

while i know some stuff ooc that went on behind the scenes of the vardos, i agree they do things acording to the factions nature.

its true its not about ab and ac.........i think i can place a bet here that most complains the CC gotten where from crafters.
might be 4 vardos left but crafters are mostly low lvls and easy to bull around.

as much i dislike how the new leadership of the vardo thinks and works, they actually do a good job...4 poeple  30+ are scared *aplauds* 
the vardo is and always will be a touchy faction, why? simpel they are meceranaries that kill maim and torture, and there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them.


but lets review whats also happening, its easy to point ahead  then point in all directions.
the server is going trough a new era........look around alot of people shelve old chars or some old chars have died   new people join and alot of new chars have been made, these are all things that also effect factions.

the gaurds: beside the npc's pretty weak atm  most lvls are at 3-9
vardo: low membership decent lvls
ezrites: ......any left?
dead ones: they are in hiding as they to have low numbers

new era new problems, but old feelings and habbits die slow.  cause nobody ever gotten to really hand out thier frustrations towards the vardo, they WERE imune.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2008, 11:29:15 PM »
The disappearance of people does have impacts on the community:

 :arrow: With the removal of Illianna of the Red Vardo the 'discussion' on a guild being established fell apart.

 :arrow: With the removal of Danielle the players behind a group set out to take over the Red Vardo fell apart. Further they could have been instrumental in discussions on a guild.

 :arrow: With the removal of Father Celurion died the Morninglord faction floundered for months OOC'ly. It has only recently begun to flourish again.

 :arrow: With the removal of Callous the vampires hunting the outskirts have diminished.

 :arrow: With the removal of Tagdar, nice statue by the way, the dwarven rebellion has floundered.

 :arrow: With the removal of Lila the Morninglordians gained entry into the undead factions old base for a massive battle of PC forces among many other impacts.

 :arrow: With the removal of the vampire Tatyana fewer evil PC's are uniting to fight together as a force. Most of the server was actively involved in hunting the one PC.

 :arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.

I respectfully disagree the quiet removal of a player has no significance.


I don't know a whole lot about half of the people on that list, but most of what I see are not exactly quiet removals.  Like Failed Bard said, Dribo's was public; the destruction of Tatyana as well, if the entire server was hunting her, I wouldn't consider quiet; Tagdar... well, has a statue, so his death isn't a mystery; and the rest were either quiet, or before my time.

It looks like most of the impacts listed are sudden endings of groups or aspirations.  I might even wager that the impacts made were due to a lack of impact because of the fact they were dead, rather than if we were to kill someone like Strahd, because Strahd is already in power, with his position already secured.  I read over the list and I see "decreased", "diminished", "floundered", "fell apart", etc.  This is what I think of when I think of a lack of conclusion.  Plots tend to get clotheslined when there is a quiet removal.  You've listed the quiet assassinations of activists.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 11:31:26 PM by Bad_Bud »


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2008, 11:35:49 PM »
Quote
simpel they are meceranaries that kill maim and torture, and there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them.

Vardo are mercenaries, bodyguards, merchants, information gatherers and body/item recoverers. I'm sorry to say, but in the past few months (not weeks, because saying weeks seems like there's a supposed Vardo permadeath at least once each week for the last month), most permadeath's in the past months were guard related, not Vardo. Dribo, Samira, Drudoc, Eowary, Bad_Bud's halfling, Tagdar, Lorea, (I can't recall who killed Neithu) and I'm missing one or two. Vardo's count in that time is two: Denalie and Illeanna, oh and Regno. So your previous statement, as DMs, and Vardo players have said previously, does not stand.

Quote
. . .cause nobody ever gotten to really hand out thier frustrations towards the vardo, they WERE imune.

I'm sorry, but no. This is a big misconception. I'm getting tired of repeating this, but no one was ever immune. In any faction. Yes, it's harder to take down people in the upper echalon's (I mean rank, such as Noica, Lucian) but it can be done. The only ones who are immune, and to a certain degree I might add, are NPCs (NPCs have been killed off before).

DMs, current Vardo and former Vardo have already explained this conception of immunity is not true. Right now such a train of thought is merely a misconception or malinformation, but if does continue it will be considered slander.

I also understand that most of this misinformation is because people are not privy to all the OOC and IC happenings of the factions and can only react and speak on what they know, but please be careful on what you say. There is no reason why three different DMs would lie to you.


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Bad_Bud

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2008, 11:41:56 PM »
I don't get the point of showing that the guard has the most kills.  The kills done by the guard satisfied the players for the most part, just read through the outstanding roleplay thread.  Most of these names are mentioned by the person who played them as being satisfactory or at least as having inevitable, conclusive endings.


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2008, 11:44:24 PM »
I've had my own experiences and concerns with issues that I felt were Meta, perma didn't even enter into it.  I've written those down and sent them to CC, for whatever possible consideration they wish to give it, or not, as is their call.  What I don't appreciate is the assumption that every one with a concern, is somehow misinformed, relying solely on rumor or an outright a slanderer.  To continually see the very people involved repeat the mantras, 'you don't know the whole story' and 'we have our reasons', really doesn't even address the concerns I have, and in fact, adds to those very concerns.   I truly hope a more mature discussion is taking place within the CC than what I see here in public view.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 11:46:31 PM by Vespertilio »


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2008, 11:55:04 PM »
I share your concern Vespertilo.  I believe there is always room for improvement.  If every complaint or constructive feedback we recieved regarding anything, not just Red Vardo, was just dismissed as being a sole product of ignorance or misconceptions, then we'd all be in a world of trouble.

However, we do find some people making outrageous claims at times, that sometimes threatens to overshadow the very good and constructive criticism made.  In other words, some of the criticism people make about the Red Vardo is born from misconception, while some of the ciritcism is very good and constructive, and we're making a point to learn from it, and we've made constructive suggestions to the dm reps.

I am confident that some of the suggestions that have been born from these discussion will help matters. 

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2008, 12:00:23 AM »
The toll was given to respond to the Dutchy's quote, Bad_Bud. Dutchy said: "...there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them." That's why I gave the numbers, just to show that this rising toll is not mostly Vardo.

I do agree with you that the silent assasinations do leave a bad taste in the mouth, but in some cases (I'm not saying the past cases, just some cases), they will get done. Someone will eventually rub someone the other way and hire an assassin to take said character out. That is why assassinations really fall under the Ba'al Vertzi's jurisdiction. Personally I feel the Vardo are free to take down their own agents for the safety of their organization, but to target outside people, I'd hire a Vertzi. It would still probably leave you with a bad taste in the mouth, but while this isn't really a comfort, for someone to hire a Vertzi to take you out means you're a special case since they had to hire the best assassins there are as opposed to regular ones.

Oh, and Icono beat me to the "claims born from misconceptions".


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dutchy

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2008, 12:18:50 AM »
well sorry yes i didnt ment that the vardo did that all,    they had a hand in it thats what i said.

and vardo WERE untouchable due to thier numbers and secrecy, poeple fear them so dont group up vs them so that makes them imune.

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Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Bad_Bud

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2008, 12:20:33 AM »
The toll was given to respond to the Dutchy's quote, Bad_Bud. Dutchy said: "...there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them." That's why I gave the numbers, just to show that this rising toll is not mostly Vardo.

Sorry about that...

I do agree with you that the silent assasinations do leave a bad taste in the mouth, but in some cases (I'm not saying the past cases, just some cases), they will get done. Someone will eventually rub someone the other way and hire an assassin to take said character out. That is why assassinations really fall under the Ba'al Vertzi's jurisdiction. Personally I feel the Vardo are free to take down their own agents for the safety of their organization, but to target outside people, I'd hire a Vertzi. It would still probably leave you with a bad taste in the mouth, but while this isn't really a comfort, for someone to hire a Vertzi to take you out means you're a special case since they had to hire the best assassins there are as opposed to regular ones.

I had a large discussion with several people (mostly friends, but with some random passers by as well ;)) about how the game's presentation of consiquences can be problematic, and this is going to be off topic from a faction discussion...

Consiquences in the real world don't translate well into the game:

1) You can't maim a person because they can always find a way to heal.

2) Death is not to be feared because you can always be brought back.

Most people already knew those two things and that they cause trouble when it comes to lasting consiquences and punishment, or so I hope.  ;)

My bigger concern is that these two things create a quiet death problem.  I wouldn't be pissy and whining if we had political assassinations, because those are cool!  Drama, rallying, revenge!  Heck yes, aren't these things awesome fuel for passionate roleplay?  Too bad this isn't the way things can be.  Due to the fact we cannot shoot the president, so to speak, and leave the corpse there as a message, or leave Dagris to sway in the wind at noose's end, causes snuffings of characters, rather than glorious defeats.  We have to burn and dispose of bodies for fear of them coming back, and thus it almost has to be quiet or a secret for someone to be permanently killed.  I'm no assassination expert, but I don't think anyone is sending a squad to kill a druglord with the expectation of the man being burned and bottled to that no remains will be left behind.

Sadly, I have no suggestion that could solve this problem aside from dramatically altering the rules of healing within the world of Ravenloft.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:22:32 AM by Bad_Bud »