Author Topic: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse  (Read 14433 times)

dutchy

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Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« on: August 15, 2008, 02:01:49 AM »
as in the death event thingy topic...theres somthing going on about the vardo, wich will also mean other factions in time, i hereby open a  new topic so deplhi doesnt have to point and shake her finger at us for not staying on topic  :D







factions are more organised and stronger thus harder to hit.
vardo example.
kill a vardo and expect to be permad end of the week, factions of hunters and experts at killing

but a faction can get to strong, all do respect its nice to see vardos beeing active but if they dominate to much people will have no room to team up and reteliate. (like the trade war   vardo rule and boss crafters around atm if not they die)

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Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 02:25:04 AM »
Actually, I think as EO stated, everybody thinks the Vardo is perma'killing this and that because of Gossip OOC.

As a Vardo Captain for about a month now, I haven't given a single hit on any player. The only player that ended up being perma'killed was an infaction player, and it had alot of backing to it. (Well, I'm not including Bounties. Those are fair game.  :D)

We haven't threatened any other traders (Non-Vardo) at all, and we've been working to be more cooperative with them. Hell. Lucian told one of the Merchants he saw, when they asked if the Vardo minded if he sold or not, that he didn't care. We're not oppressing anybody, in my opinion, it's all in your heads. :)

The Vardo has been in shambles for awhile, and it's just now starting to build back up, and it can grow to have some power if somebody wields it right. Though it just matters on how this power is handled, and right now, I don't personally see it being misused. We don't want to off any players right now, and I'd rather resort to other means. We actually have alot of neat events and plans being made that'll be entertaining to everybody.  ;)

Nefensis

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 02:37:07 AM »
Yeah im in the faction, how else you thought it was gonna be :P

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k_moustakas

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 03:24:56 AM »
Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month. Like two months ago or three months ago or six months ago?
I'm going to let my feelings roll and speak my heart. So if you don't want to read a lot of frustration, don't read further!

Spoiler: show
Let's assume what you say is very true and honest. -And it well could be-
You can't expect being nice for a month and people forgetting all that was happening for three-four months at least. Because not that long ago traders WERE oppressed. And people GOT killed for making the wrong jokes at the wrong time. <--- *trusting the wrong people is fair game, no comments on that*
I wish the faction becomes (is?) like you say it will become (is?), but it will take a while for it to settle in. It's like the bloody mafia coming out and saying: "Hey, we're going to be nice guys now on. Honestly!" Even if they are true to their word, you can't expect people to trust them the very next day!

I won't go into detail but I'm gonna break my promise and spoil it  (sorry about this my friends), but did you know that we were *this* close to having a band of people declaring OOC WAR against the vardos, after all of us being FED UP with them? We even had a meeting and started making plans about how we were going to kill every single one of them and tear the faction apart! Having that many people -and I'm talking double digit here!- having the exact same Dark-Power worthy OOC feelings about a faction, means something *IS* going on.

And that's EXCLUDING my character IC trying to rile up the whole undead faction and a couple of mortals into war. Which had some success of it's own too. *beams with pride*

Do you understand the ramifications of what I'm saying? What I mean *war*? OOC War? Can you even remotely guess how upset some people where?

In the end, things got toned down and all plans got discarded -thankfully, because things were going to get really messy OOC. And because it was wrong. Really wrong. I admit it, so don't bother flaming me for it. After all, as it was very correctly pointed out to me quite some time ago, we're somebody's guests here, someone else is running the game; if I don't like it, I can always just pack my stuff and go play somewhere else. But I like this place and I don't want to go. In that regard, I'm making adjustments. To adjust to the game that our housekeeper and his friends want to play. And you know what? It IS a good game, otherwise I wouldn't be here so many hours everyday for the past 8 months. Heck, before the sillyness had started -and this is not a secret- all I really wanted was to join the bloody Vardo faction because I thought it was cool! I was trying to get noticed, was trying to make friends with members IC and have them put good words in and so on haha!


Actually, after posting all this, I feel as if a huge weight has been lifted off me. I'm not going to post again anything vardo-related and I'm going to keep quiet. See where the game will take us next. Please forgive me for writing with passion about a game I love.
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Nefensis

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 03:36:31 AM »
No offence but bringing IC conflict into OOC, is why this server isnt as good as it should be on a community point of view. if the players cant leave IC, IC, there's a problem. If your character is angry about the faction, do something about it. Go ahead against the mafia, see what they have to say. Of course they are strong, but they also have as strong consequences for messing up too.

OOC frustration is understandable but if the server comes just that, then it's not fun anymore. Leave the anger in game, don't let it torment you in your enjoyment of the game.

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Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 03:42:08 AM »
Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month.

This may very well be so, but either way, that's not the point I was making. People are/were pointing out what the Vardo was doing now, so I discussed the here and now.

Also. I'd strongly discourage planning the demise of a Faction completely OOC, or going through OOC methods to see it through IC. Just doesn't bode well with me. Always try to keep things IC at all times, no matter how frusterating they may be. If you start doing that, then what's the fun for the Vardo PCs? None. We had no way of getting information on a possible "War" as you liked to call it, because all of this was just planned OOCly. The Vardo rule on gathering information and using it.

There's a new generation of Vardo I guess you could say. Put your OOC frusterations and hostility about the Vardo behind you, and try to move on. Cooperating with the Vardo is by far more beneficial then going against it.

Cheers. :)

Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 04:07:45 AM »
There's a lot of paranoia going on fueled by ignorance and misconceptions (or misguidance by a few individuals). People often lack critical perception and tend to take things for granted. A situation that happens all too often on POTM (and in real life as well) is when someone hears a story from another player and takes it for granted without questionning it. There's always two sides (or even more) to a story and only picking one and going along with it (and often exagerating it), results in drama and incomprehension. How many times have you asked the other person in a conflict how he felt or what his motivations were? People instead jump the gun and assume a lot then tell others these assumptions that are turned into 'facts' that are then shared until they become some "truth" when initially it may have been a nothing but a small misundertanding.

This post has alot of Merit to it, and it deserves to be re-posted in this Topic.  :)

engelfire

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 04:10:38 AM »
lucian and other vardo pretty effectively killed vino and caused him immense pain he never fully recoverers. plus i was in verge of ripping my head of becouse it was so stressing. and to top of that i still havent got any real proof why vino was killed anyway. who knows... what has happened to him could easily be result of insane metagaming, be it accident or intentional, hard to say becouse i dont know the things that resulted in this happening with vino

i asked dm's, but they didnt know anything becouse it was fully player ran situation. ic'ly vardo never interrogated vino, he was just dead in the basement for almost a week (yay) then ressed, patted in the back and escorted to guards, constantly gagged to prevent him from speaking what is happening and his own version of the story. maybe there were some time table issues but hey... many times i was online with vino as ghost, many vardos were online and pretty much idling or afking, ignoring my pleads to go onward with the situation

its silly to say imo, that you can go against vardo ic ingame, sure we can do that but, i think we all know what will happen. the basic vardo formula for this kind of things is that first time offenders will spend some time in their basement, being tortured. second time offenders are killed and fucked beyond imagination that the player gets frustrated and shelfs the character... woah see ? you dont need dm to perm anyone, all it takes is enough shit against someones character. in that kind of situations it is very hard to remain happy ooc and it is inevitable that there will be grief.

im sure many good rp'rs have been there, and of course eventually we get over it. note that i am not angry at anyone ooc, nor ic. what has happened, is in the past and go on with this rp he is in now *shrugs*

but to say that vardo doesnt perm people, is utter bull**** and everyone knows that.


edit to add:

vardo's arent supposed to be murderers, they are professional merchants who get to fill their clients needs. for now, vardo is doing verzi's job
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 04:16:38 AM by engelfire »
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Nefensis

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 04:22:34 AM »
Vardo might lead to perm players, yes, let's compare the Vardo the mafia here a moment.  They call hits, they make money legally, illegaly, they muscle up competitors etc. and too they have the muscle they need to backup their barking. if a character is angry at that, well maybe he needs his own muscle to backup his barking, if not, he needs to back down with his whine. See where im going with this?

Not everything always goes as planned, PCs go missing for a few days because they dont log in, it happens. All i can promise is whatever happens while im in the vardo, nobody will end up floating in mid air while dead for no reason. Denalie died for a shitty reason too and i decided instead to make sure that wouldnt happen again. I want this server to prosper and it wont happen is no one makes a OOC effort, because yeah, there is a LOT of effort in making things work, i bust my ass to do this work. BTW we're hiring if someone feels like making a non emosneakfreak that wants to play merchant. I could use the help.

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engelfire

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 04:34:30 AM »
Quote
Vardo might lead to perm players, yes, let's compare the Vardo the mafia here a moment.  They call hits, they make money legally, illegaly, they muscle up competitors etc. and too they have the muscle they need to backup their barking. if a character is angry at that, well maybe he needs his own muscle to backup his barking, if not, he needs to back down with his whine. See where im going with this?

yeah of course i understand that, i know lot of vardo cause vino used to be one. but i guess things could be finetuned bit you know ? if vardo's actions cause so much ooc grief to large number of people, then i think it has nothing to do with gossip, especially since i doubt that people would just rally up against vardo unless they have good reason to do so.

vardo has already taken a wrong path when all this
Quote
They call hits, they make money legally, illegaly, they muscle up competitors etc.
is rather public. only thing that nonvardo people should see is their public legal moneymaking things. sure theres lot vardo keeps hidden which i wont mention here naturally. but i guess they have earned their bully reputation. perhaps in time they can earn that merchant reputation again and people will forget the nasty things about vardo.

it also tells others how corrupt the officials are when they allow such open criminal organisation to run free. i speak ic-wise now becouse im sure majority of characters know abouit vardo's reputation yup
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Eledaar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 04:36:31 AM »
Um, to be honest I'm not sure I should be posting on such a heated topic where I have no personal experience, being a new player, but on the other hand perhaps and outsider's perspective (and a brief anecdote) will help some people take a step back and look at this without so much vested interest.

It seems to me that a lot of *in character* and *in game* evils were perpetrated against individual characters by an *in game* faction, which happens to be despicable and evil.  I mean, even Peasant90's OOC post here sounds like he's trying to get apprentices for the Dark Side. 

Previously playing a villain elsewhere, I had similar complaints levied against *my* person as a player.  That I had it in for this and this person, that I metagamed to do this or that... in all honesty, I never perma'd ANYONE (I simply would never single out a player and perma their character, unless maybe I was given express consent from the player weeks beforehand and the plot called for it... just not my style, no matter whom I am playing), yet these complaints were *still* levied against me.  While I don't understand/know anything about the events that players are talking about here (and perhaps they were treated unfairly due to OOC reasons... or maybe someone just didn't log on for a few days) I will say this:

People do not like to have their social RP and their character's story broken up, even if it is by perfectly RP-oriented, IC events like that characters' death, torture or inconvenience.  I mean, a player once hunted me down with three people (ICly, given... I was caught alone) - somehow I managed to kill all three of my attackers, and to prevent them coming right back after me (albeit one level lower), I looted their corpses.  Apparently, to some this is griefing.

So, I guess when Peasant90 quoted EO, that just about sums up my thoughts on this matter in a most articulate fashion.  Take a step back, and critically evaluate what's going on - even with your own characters.

Sorry, flame me if you must but that's this newbie's ignorant 2cp.
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Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 04:40:37 AM »
lucian and other vardo pretty effectively killed vino and caused him immense pain he never fully recoverers. plus i was in verge of ripping my head of becouse it was so stressing. and to top of that i still havent got any real proof why vino was killed anyway. who knows... what has happened to him could easily be result of insane metagaming, be it accident or intentional, hard to say becouse i dont know the things that resulted in this happening with vino

i asked dm's, but they didnt know anything becouse it was fully player ran situation. ic'ly vardo never interrogated vino, he was just dead in the basement for almost a week (yay) then ressed, patted in the back and escorted to guards, constantly gagged to prevent him from speaking what is happening and his own version of the story. maybe there were some time table issues but hey... many times i was online with vino as ghost, many vardos were online and pretty much idling or afking, ignoring my pleads to go onward with the situation

its silly to say imo, that you can go against vardo ic ingame, sure we can do that but, i think we all know what will happen. the basic vardo formula for this kind of things is that first time offenders will spend some time in their basement, being tortured. second time offenders are killed and fucked beyond imagination that the player gets frustrated and shelfs the character... woah see ? you dont need dm to perm anyone, all it takes is enough shit against someones character. in that kind of situations it is very hard to remain happy ooc and it is inevitable that there will be grief.

im sure many good rp'rs have been there, and of course eventually we get over it. note that i am not angry at anyone ooc, nor ic. what has happened, is in the past and go on with this rp he is in now *shrugs*

but to say that vardo doesnt perm people, is utter bull**** and everyone knows that.


edit to add:

vardo's arent supposed to be murderers, they are professional merchants who get to fill their clients needs. for now, vardo is doing verzi's job

There was a Private Bounty issued to Lucian, by the -Guards-, to take Vino out and turn him in for -questioning-. I don't see Vino perma'ed, or anything of that nature, so most of your arguement and the example provided isn't really supportive. I have a life, like anybody else, and being one of the only Vardo that were active at the time it was hard to get the RP with Vino going for several reasons. My life at that time was pretty hectic as far as my schedule went, and since your on Euro time, it makes it all the more difficult. I remembe apologizing to you several times. :P

Quote
but to say that vardo doesnt perm people, is utter bull**** and everyone knows that.

Past is past. In the past month we've only perma'killed one person. With a very valid RP reason, and it was somebody that was -in- the Vardo.

Just take a breather, tone it down a notch, there's no need to start getting angry over things that've occured IC. No harm was meant in anyway. We're all here to have fun, aren't we? :)


« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 04:42:49 AM by Peasant90 »

engelfire

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 04:51:03 AM »
im not angry man :)

its just silly to me that never was he interrogated or never was he given a chance to defend himself against the accusations. even noica didnt hear him out, only tried to look tough by whispering to his ear.


 :offtopic: i know.. just makes me think about lot of stuff
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 04:54:45 AM by engelfire »
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Kaspar

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 04:54:22 AM »
This server is by far the most dynamic and fulfilling server on NWN that I've ever experienced, and the DMs are there to thank for that. Put a little faith in them. If what you're saying is true, then the blame wouldn't fall on the Vardo, but the Guards instead?

The Vardo are the lesser of the two evils, when compared to the Guard. Trust me.  ;)

k_moustakas

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2008, 07:43:24 AM »
Erm... actually, I will go back on my promise and answer your question, where would the Vardo PCs have fun.

Where was MY fun spending two RL weeks trying to find someone (thanks lorea *starts crying*) to pay 6,5k for a ressurection or being told: Oh no worry, if you rp it properly I can give you a hook instead of an arm, because I made fun of Vino? Not to mention I had just finally found Helaman in game and made an order after a month of trying, in which I couldn't afterwards get my items because I was a ghost and neither pay for them! And then straight up after a week of being alive going again through the whole torture thing/perma this time (to which I was totally bored and god knows why I hadn't thought of NOT returning to my body to save me the trouble), because I actually had a five minute conversation with a guard, to whom I told: ''No, I'm not going to testify anything, they are too strong, I'll try to go on with my life'?' That's at least how I felt at the time. Add the feeling of betrayal as at the time, I considered friends of mine (IC) at least two of the vardos, was on the verge of starting a supplying deal with them and the bloomy betraying guard... bloomy betraying guard lol!

Sounds very fun, doesn't it?

And Nef, that WAS my version of getting strongmen to avoid getting troubled again. What would be better than making sure no vardo's would EVER mess with anyone again?

The war was not meant to make the vardo's have fun, or anyone have fun for that matter. It was meant to ruin their gaming like they ruined ours (note the plural) and to somehow get rid of them. Hence I felt so guilty about it and we didn't go through with it in the end. I still feel somewhat guilty over thinking of going through with it. The last comment I remember was:  But if we really do that, how are we better than them? Of course, it doesn't literally apply. Nobody's better than anyone and IC frustration has to remain IC and not pass on to OOC. In my situation, it flooded OOC, and I have already apologised. Now that I've let it out, I'll get over it too.

Just don't blame me for keeping things a bit tight for a while, or for not wanting anything to do with you lot until I do get over it.
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failed.bard

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2008, 08:02:00 AM »
  For Dribo and Yves the potential war with the vardo was entirely IC.  Yves wanted to start a merchant faction, that meant getting rid of the competition.

Chrisman888

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2008, 08:43:02 AM »
Alright, first off OOC planning against a faction is very very very wrong, and I can't even believe hearing that, even tho I had my suspicions before.

Also I don't see the problem here at all, why are we fussing OOCly about how the Vardo perma people? I don't see no problem with people being scared of the Vardo, knowing that if they mess around or such.. they might just disappear. It's all IC. Why not solve it IC, or rp accordingly. If at this time in moment the Vardo are strong.. and powerful, don't think you can run up and stab a Vardo and get away with it, just like killing a guard.

We have to remember that this is Ravenloft, a dark place were evil is quite strong. Assassinations, and all that sort of stuff.. is all part of it. Your suppose to be feared, and if you don't want your character fearing the Vardo, and punching them here, making fun there, stabbing here, messing up there plans there. That's all FINE, your character, your RP, but there just may be consquences when a large powerful faction ((almost like the mafia)) strikes back.

And if we really look at perma killing I think guards take the cake. You kill a guard, run from a guard, cast witchery. Bounty for life bud. Your dead.

Iconoclast

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2008, 09:38:27 AM »
In Vino's situation, it sounds like better ooc communication between those involved would have smoothed some things out.  Especially when you have a character in an antagonistic position, the player needs to make a point to reassure the other player what is going on, since losing control of your character, with the character's fate in someone elses hands, really does require some faith and trust in the others involved.

The best way to have successful antagonistic role play, is to earn the trust of others as a player or dm. 

I love the Red Vardo story as I've expressed it to those on the Council.

Evil in this setting in the end leads men and women to their own undoing.  Julia Colds was a classic moral tale.  Greed, unchecked ambition, and violence in the name of greed and ambition, will lead men and women to self-destruction, unless if they find redemption.

Julia chasing after coin that fell from someone's pocket, the way a dog would run after a french fry falling to the floor, said a great deal. 

I think along the way, the Red Vardo have earned a reputation more as thugs than merchants.  One of the first rules of business is "satisify the custumer."  Another rule of business would be to build relationships with various segments of the community. 

The Godfather wasn't about being thuggish.  They had their muscle, but those in power mingled with the upper crest of society.  They attended church regulary, had their children baptized, had dinner parties, rubbed elbows with politicians.  They had eventually the money to run some legiitamate business.  in the end though, all the sins of the past caught up to the Godfather, with the tragic death of his daughter.  Even when he was trying to find redemption, tragedy befell his family, leading to great anguish.  So when developing a character with similar themes, greed, ambition, violence to achieve wealth or prestige, keep in mind that a happy ending isn't likely, and the seeds are being planted along the way for self-destruction. 

The Red Vardo now have a soiled reputation that hangs over them to this day, due to the sins of the past, or some of the sins of the day.  Great story potential.

The more the Red Vardo resort to violence, the greater the challenge when it comes to public relations and building influence and trust among the community. 

I'm looking forward to seeing where the Red Vardo story goes from here. 

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:42:21 AM by Iconoclast »

ThAnswr

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2008, 09:46:13 AM »
Quote
Alright, first off OOC planning against a faction is very very very wrong, and I can't even believe hearing that, even tho I had my suspicions before.

I'd say I'm shocked too, but I'll let Captain Renault (Casablanca) say it better than I ever could:

Quote
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
[aloud]


Call it OOC or call it a clandestine, off-premises private meeting.  Regardless, players are publicly stating what they have been saying in private and I think it's time to listen. 

Here's my take on it. I make it point never to deal with the Vardo since the Julia days.  It isn't necessary to deal with the Vardo.  Other than magic bags, every bit of the specialty equipment my char has was NOT obtained through the Vardo.  If the Vardo are now the sole proprietors of speciallity equpment, and I doubt it, there's something wrong with the system. 

However, having said that, I find it rather odd that a new crafting system spawned the very character and dynamics it was supposed to in a char known as Denalie, and she ends up dead.  Was it the Vardo: Yes or no?  If the answer is "no", my apologies for muddying the good name of the Vardo.  If the answer is "yes", that's just plain wrong and completely against the very reason for the herbalism skill unless the intent was to place it in the hands of the Vardo. 

Yeah, I know this is Ravenloft and that's the catch-all phrase to excuse anything.  The fact is this is a community of gamers first and there are definitie rules and Soren posted those rules. 

But, for all who are claiming that the Vardo is like the mafia forget one simple fact:  The mafia is not a protected class. Anyone with the skill and guile and guts can kill a member of the mafia.  Not all the mafia are "Don Corleone" or the head of the Gambino family.  There are plenty of petty underlings who piss off the wrong person and end up dead.  Btw, mafia dons end up dead too.  Carmine Gallante ended up being shot while he was having lunch at an outdoor table.  Albert Anastasia died in a barber's chair after the barber had to run in the back to retreat something.  Still unsolved crimes basically because no one gave a crap.  The point:  They end up dead because they  made enemies who plotted their undoing and carried it out. 

Which brings us to the main point:  If this is Ravenloft with it's morality tale, why are there protected classes who can't suffer the consequences of their actions except in the most stringent of circumstances?  People are constantly told to solve their problems IC and ingame.  Unstack the deck and that might actually have some meaning. 



« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:48:14 AM by ThAnswr »
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mayvind

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2008, 10:41:23 AM »
My though is this IC problem deal it Icly.

But i also understand is hard to deal something icly beacause you not getting backup like you should. I have people go after me right and left buffing up while i stand there watching try to kill me so many times intend to harm and lead to perma me, they all lose get upset OOC for losing calling me cheater exploiters, unreasonable and hunger to have me kill and yet they losing nothing but theirs pride.....because 5 mins afterward they are back alive and forming a hunt party on me. If i make one misake iam dead and perma iam sure of it. But this is nothing news to me really, iam not a noob i have played and meet many people in ingame life time from this and other server, and some might say i bringing this on myself, which is true this is how i like to play it.

But can i perma someone who keep coming after me several times ? Nope, but icly i should be ... i would go down into the dwarf mine drop that guy into the molted pit of lava, but i never complaint about it i play and play to have fun if no longer fun iam no longer play.

As for player if you character feel oppressed and want to do something about it then RP Icly doing it get DMs attention and get yours hand dirty. OOC stress and worry is not good for yours health this is a game try to relax everyone.

Let get honest and say a forbidden word. DM or DMs favorite ... the rumor and gossip that is spreading around now is it true or it is false it is those person inside theirs heart to know what is and what not the true. As for the universal true we cant avoid it, Some DMs like certain players more then another it is a FACT of life. In RL teacher like some student more then another, father or mother favor a child more then another. It isnt fair i know, but belt up and LIVE with it.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2008, 01:48:34 PM »
Um, to be honest I'm not sure I should be posting on such a heated topic where I have no personal experience, being a new player, but on the other hand perhaps and outsider's perspective (and a brief anecdote) will help some people take a step back and look at this without so much vested interest.

It seems to me that a lot of *in character* and *in game* evils were perpetrated against individual characters by an *in game* faction, which happens to be despicable and evil.  I mean, even Peasant90's OOC post here sounds like he's trying to get apprentices for the Dark Side. 

Previously playing a villain elsewhere, I had similar complaints levied against *my* person as a player.  That I had it in for this and this person, that I metagamed to do this or that... in all honesty, I never perma'd ANYONE (I simply would never single out a player and perma their character, unless maybe I was given express consent from the player weeks beforehand and the plot called for it... just not my style, no matter whom I am playing), yet these complaints were *still* levied against me.  While I don't understand/know anything about the events that players are talking about here (and perhaps they were treated unfairly due to OOC reasons... or maybe someone just didn't log on for a few days) I will say this:

People do not like to have their social RP and their character's story broken up, even if it is by perfectly RP-oriented, IC events like that characters' death, torture or inconvenience.  I mean, a player once hunted me down with three people (ICly, given... I was caught alone) - somehow I managed to kill all three of my attackers, and to prevent them coming right back after me (albeit one level lower), I looted their corpses.  Apparently, to some this is griefing.

So, I guess when Peasant90 quoted EO, that just about sums up my thoughts on this matter in a most articulate fashion.  Take a step back, and critically evaluate what's going on - even with your own characters.

Sorry, flame me if you must but that's this newbie's ignorant 2cp.

But we aren't discussing the other evil factions such as the undead or the guards.  Guards come up every now and then, but guards don't feel like an invincible force.  Deep down I feel that if I do anything to a Red Vardo, even if it is extremely well planned out and carried out in secret, I have a feeling that somehow, someway, they will have some kind of technology; a crystal ball that looks into the past and finds me guilty.  I don't feel this way about any other faction.

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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2008, 02:09:46 PM »
Um, to be honest I'm not sure I should be posting on such a heated topic where I have no personal experience, being a new player, but on the other hand perhaps and outsider's perspective (and a brief anecdote) will help some people take a step back and look at this without so much vested interest.

It seems to me that a lot of *in character* and *in game* evils were perpetrated against individual characters by an *in game* faction, which happens to be despicable and evil.  I mean, even Peasant90's OOC post here sounds like he's trying to get apprentices for the Dark Side. 

Previously playing a villain elsewhere, I had similar complaints levied against *my* person as a player.  That I had it in for this and this person, that I metagamed to do this or that... in all honesty, I never perma'd ANYONE (I simply would never single out a player and perma their character, unless maybe I was given express consent from the player weeks beforehand and the plot called for it... just not my style, no matter whom I am playing), yet these complaints were *still* levied against me.  While I don't understand/know anything about the events that players are talking about here (and perhaps they were treated unfairly due to OOC reasons... or maybe someone just didn't log on for a few days) I will say this:

People do not like to have their social RP and their character's story broken up, even if it is by perfectly RP-oriented, IC events like that characters' death, torture or inconvenience.  I mean, a player once hunted me down with three people (ICly, given... I was caught alone) - somehow I managed to kill all three of my attackers, and to prevent them coming right back after me (albeit one level lower), I looted their corpses.  Apparently, to some this is griefing.

So, I guess when Peasant90 quoted EO, that just about sums up my thoughts on this matter in a most articulate fashion.  Take a step back, and critically evaluate what's going on - even with your own characters.

Sorry, flame me if you must but that's this newbie's ignorant 2cp.

But we aren't discussing the other evil factions such as the undead or the guards.  Guards come up every now and then, but guards don't feel like an invincible force.  Deep down I feel that if I do anything to a Red Vardo, even if it is extremely well planned out and carried out in secret, I have a feeling that somehow, someway, they will have some kind of technology; a crystal ball that looks into the past and finds me guilty.  I don't feel this way about any other faction.

This Topic is meant to discuss -all- of the Factions, hence feedback on the current factions(Plural). In my experience, the Guard are quite invincible, and ICly I've seen how they'd act to portray that feeling. They have the law on their side, the Counts law.

Instead of complaining about how untouchable the Vardo is OOC, complain about it IC. And sorry if I used the wrong word, but complaining seem suitable at the time. The Vardo are meant to be feared along those lines, otherwise we'd be getting whacked every day. This is all IC fear carrying over to OOC frusteration, which shouldn't be happening.

Lets try to be a bit more constructive with our posts, and I'm not saying that in an accusing manner.

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However, having said that, I find it rather odd that a new crafting system spawned the very character and dynamics it was supposed to in a char known as Denalie, and she ends up dead.  Was it the Vardo: Yes or no?  If the answer is "no", my apologies for muddying the good name of the Vardo.  If the answer is "yes", that's just plain wrong and completely against the very reason for the herbalism skill unless the intent was to place it in the hands of the Vardo.

I, personally, never had Denalie killed. I don't much like to resort to killing off players, when there's other more richful roads to be taken to expand both parties RP experience and fun.
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Let get honest and say a forbidden word. DM or DMs favorite ... the rumor and gossip that is spreading around now is it true or it is false it is those person inside theirs heart to know what is and what not the true. As for the universal true we cant avoid it, Some DMs like certain players more then another it is a FACT of life. In RL teacher like some student more then another, father or mother favor a child more then another. It isnt fair i know, but belt up and LIVE with it.

If your refering to EO as our "Favorite DM", then that's wrong. He's our Faction DM, nothing else. He treats us just the same as any other DM would, if they had our faction.


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But, for all who are claiming that the Vardo is like the mafia forget one simple fact:  The mafia is not a protected class.
The Vardo isn't really a Mafia, but it -can- act as one. They have alot of similiar qualties and traits, except the Vardo is big in the Market business. Or trying to be, once again. Things are in progress to start getting it ontrack for that. Like I said in the perma'death Topic. (If I have my topics straight.)

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Which brings us to the main point:  If this is Ravenloft with it's morality tale, why are there protected classes who can't suffer the consequences of their actions except in the most stringent of circumstances?  People are constantly told to solve their problems IC and ingame.  Unstack the deck and that might actually have some meaning.

It's simple. Nobodies telling anybody to simply shelve their problems, though I'd always like to suggest they keep their IC problems IC and try to keep it there. The only reason why the Vardo aren't suffering any "Consequences", from past deeds most likely, is because nobodies taken a move to dish these out. That's not our fault at all, and I don't think we should be put on the hotseat like that. People are growing so frusterated that their PCs can't get back at us IC, that it's causing alot of OOC problems to occur.

We didn't do anything OOC to make sure that we were protected and safe guarded, we always keep it IC and deal with it there. I'd like to ask the same of everybody else.



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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2008, 02:25:03 PM »
I sense a lot of hostility towards the RVT faction, mostly from the misguided idea that they're untouchable (they aren't, I know the undead faction could have taken them all out at one point and even the guard has made the Vardo suffer).

One thing you have to remember, and I speak as a former captain Vardo, is that the Vardo excel at information gathering and sneaking. Ric and Nef can back that up since they used to be Vardos too. I remember my captaincy having people paranoid because of all the information we kept getting on people and groups. And this does not mean stealth alone. People could be bought, betray others, do it for favors and so on. There was only one character at the time besides the Vardo who had such a veritable spy network and I'm not naming the character to respect his work and privacy. So Vardo finding about your plans or past actions is quite easy. You'd be surprised how much people speak of secrets and plans without even going into a locked room or thinking some way out of the way place was safe.

Also, I'll address this "favorism issue". It seems the job of a faction DM is seen by some like favorism and I think that's just a misconception. Perhaps a DM should explain what being a faction DM is about to the others players.

Now, what I do ask is the following:

If you feel like this, why hasn't there been these complaints been issued to the CC? The CC can't read minds nor can it act without complaints or issues being brought up to it.


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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2008, 02:35:22 PM »
I sense a lot of hostility towards the RVT faction, mostly from the misguided idea that they're untouchable (they aren't, I know the undead faction could have taken them all out at one point and even the guard has made the Vardo suffer).

I think what people are saying is the Vardo are untouchable to the player who is not in the Guard faction or the Undead faction.  Is that accurate or not? 
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Re: Concerns - Feedback on the current factions & possible abuse
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2008, 02:47:03 PM »
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.