Author Topic: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!  (Read 9340 times)

Bad_Bud

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Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« on: August 05, 2008, 04:18:02 PM »


I can't carry this thing for long...

ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 04:21:22 PM »
The SRD says they should weigh 45 pounds which makes 80% of one 36 pounds. If weight's a real issue, find an ironwood shield if they are still available.
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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 04:27:22 PM »
HOLY SH8T thats like.. way too heavy and no ironwood isnt available anymore.

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ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 04:30:20 PM »
Always large shields available for the weight conscious, and I'm sure someone may be willing to part with their ironwood shield if offered the right amount of fangs.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 04:33:18 PM »
What is the "SRD"?

I don't see how a tower shield could logically weigh 45.0 pounds if full plate mail is only 50.0 pounds.

Then there's also the fact that my shield magically grew from (I think) 21.6 pounds to 36.0 pounds?  I would at least expect some extra protection from that magical growth.   :P

It is the same exact item, I don't think it is fair to slam everyone with a shield with this extra weight.  It's not like we bought new shields or anything.  The old Machinist's crossbows didn't get nerfed when the new one was implemented.

[edit]
Ah, I'm not done...

Another reason why a shield couldn't weigh fourty-five pounds:

A cleric or a fighter is almost always found wearing full plate armor.  Tower shields compliment full plate armor more than they compliment the lighter armors... that said, I'm finding it hard to imagine that someone who's already wearing heavy armor could concievably carry a fourty-five pound shield on his weak arm, let alone be able to move that arm to be able to block attacks or maneuver to strike.  It doesn't make sense.  I wouldn't even expect Arnold Schwarzenegger to be able to handle a tower shield in full plate mail, and he has what, a strength modifier of at least 6?
[/edit]
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 04:43:12 PM by Bad_Bud »

Rex

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 04:38:58 PM »
It weighs what it weighs.  36 pounds.  Mine ways more, since I don't use the crafted materials for the most part.  Shields are heavy, that's one of the reasons they give you AC.  Tower Shields especially so.  Not ment to be a little toy thing you wave around.

What I have noticed though that if it's laggy and you are pulling your shield out of another weight reducing item, sometimes you get BOTH reductions.

Otherwise, that's what it's supposed to weigh.

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ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2008, 04:39:17 PM »
The SRD is a web based document showing, legally, a lot of the stats for Dungeons and Dragons.

The one I usually go to is at: http://www.d20srd.org/

Another is at: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html

With the armor specific section being here: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/armor.html

You'll notice a huge difference between a large (heavy) shield and the tower shield when it comes to weight. However, we aren't getting the +4 AC offered by the PnP versions.

As far as criticism about items being changed without notice, remember this is a beta server.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 04:46:44 PM »
This server already increased the weight of tower shields before 1.69 came out.  I don't see why the development team would raise the weight so drastically, if they hadn't done it before.

I see why you defend the weights, but I don't think this change was intentional.

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 04:49:03 PM »
honestly this change hurts for those of 14 str or less calson has just chain mail armor the oak steel tower shield and two longswords a hammer and bow he's got 1lb to spare and thats with everything but what he is using in 60% magic bags which he has six of

Bad_Bud

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 04:51:55 PM »
The SRD also says people in heavy armor run slower, and that anyone using a tower shield gets a -2 to attack rolls, but none of this is implemented in NWN.

ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 04:55:32 PM »
I have a strong dwarf with a steel/oak shield and a slightly above averagely strong wizard with a ironwood shield. I'm curious as to how it'll affect my characters, but I'd find some way to either deal with the weights or simply downsize to a large shield instead.

Some of the PnP's rules weren't carried over, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the stats were kept. It could be that tower shields were always too light to begin with on our server. We'll see what the Devs think of the matter.

Also, the NWN wikia page says tower shields should also weigh 45 pounds. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tower_shield
At the bottom you'll notice this tidbit:
Quote
Prior to version 1.69, a bug caused this item to actually weigh only 19.4 pounds.
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Rex

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 04:57:55 PM »
The SRD also says people in heavy armor run slower, and that anyone using a tower shield gets a -2 to attack rolls, but none of this is implemented in NWN.

OH but it COULD be.  Fairly easily to.  You can also add in TIME to change armor, and difficulties for doing it to quickly.  Turns into a gigantic variety of builds and armor types then, not just the Platemail Consortium.  Tower Shields give you Cover as well in PnP.  Makes up for the dificulties of using them.

NwN simplified it a touch because the folks at bioware are easily confused by reality and of course, easily distracted by bright moving objects.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2008, 05:00:03 PM »
At the bottom you'll notice this tidbit:
Quote
Prior to version 1.69, a bug caused this item to actually weigh only 19.4 pounds.

Meaning the change was implemented by Bioware, not the Ravenloft development team.

ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2008, 05:04:54 PM »
Yup, and we've been apparently living and getting comfortable with the bug for years. I guess this means we may see more variety out there other than the standard tower shield/full plate combo that most non-sneaks and non-mages use for equipment.

However, if this remains in effect, I'd love to see that +4 base AC. 8)
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2008, 05:08:36 PM »
I was referring to what I had said before.  Unless I'm horribly mistaken, for which I apologize, but didn't the Ravenloft team modify the weight of tower shields pre-1.69 to make them heavier than the 19.4 pounds they were before?  I'm almost positive this is the case.

That is why I am arguing against the weight change -- because the weight already had been changed to what the devs thought was reasonable.

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 05:32:59 PM »
  Well think of it in this concept.  The Tower shield is pretty much the block style phalanx formation shield you'd see used by the Roman Legionnaires.  These were not lightweight easy to carry or in theory very usable in one on one combat, more akin to the Spartans use of interlocking defensive tactics used to make a shield wall.  So I think the weight increase (while arguably and understandably inconveniencing to players who are limited in carrying capacity).

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ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 05:35:26 PM »
That is why I am arguing against the weight change -- because the weight already had been changed to what the devs thought was reasonable.

You are also arguing for lighter tower shields, and while I understand and appreciate that, I'd prefer to be consistent with NWN, the rest of the persistant worlds, and D&D in general.
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Rex

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 05:36:57 PM »
At the bottom you'll notice this tidbit:
Quote
Prior to version 1.69, a bug caused this item to actually weigh only 19.4 pounds.

Meaning the change was implemented by Bioware, not the Ravenloft development team.

Yeah they Fixed the Bug.  Get used to the weight.  It weighs what it should weigh (actually less).  To heavy, get a smaller Shield.  1 point of AC really doesn't matter that much here.

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ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 05:40:09 PM »
He does have a point, in that crafted steel goods weigh significantly less than what they should weigh. If it weren't for PotM and its custom crafting system, you'd have even more weight to worry about.
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Rex

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 05:41:49 PM »
He does have a point, in that crafted steel goods weigh significantly less than what they should weigh. If it weren't for PotM and its custom crafting system, you'd have even more weight to worry about.

I always have a point.   :twisted:  Basically a non Issue, expect to see more Large Shields (which I like better anyway), and good going bioware that they actually fixed something instead of making it worse.

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 06:23:33 PM »
  "Well think of it in this concept.  The Tower shield is pretty much the block style phalanx formation shield you'd see used by the Roman Legionnaires.  These were not lightweight easy to carry or in theory very usable in one on one combat, more akin to the Spartans use of interlocking defensive tactics used to make a shield wall.  So I think the weight increase (while arguably and understandably inconveniencing to players who are limited in carrying capacity)."

Archonzero is right.
 
The tower shield was always to large to carry around like I have seen/done on this game.
It's designed to stand behind, often to deflet incoming arrows off of siege armies.
No way would it be handled like we have. Large is about the best AC one could use in pitched battles.
I have never seen a cavalryman use them either.
I was actually surprised to see them so frequently used with little consequence when I started, and assumed the title was off  ----and that they were just Large shields. the Small shields in my mind then were little more than a Buckler.
In the movie 300, those were actually Large shields. Many of you saw how big they really are.

I agree with another player that the AC bonus should be +4 and weight remain extreme.
Bucklers +1
Smalls +2
Large +3
Tower +4

It would take a VERY strong/large person to battle as we do in melee with a Tower shield.

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ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 06:31:14 PM »
The small shield is practically a buckler according to the appearance, so it should be this:

Small +1
Large +2
Tower +4

With great protection, comes great encumbrance... omg, this sucker is heavy. Oof!
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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 06:44:00 PM »
Makes Large shields more viable I guess.

It doesn't bother me because my fighter wears banded and has 30 lbs to spare anyway. This is a problem for those who spent money on steel tower shields and can't usre them now, alas there is no way to refund that money.

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ethinos

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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 06:55:09 PM »
The crafters have always been underpricing the tower shields to be honest. 500 fangs is next to nothing for what you get in return. I've always been weight conscious and have given my fighter types half-plate and a decent Dex to make up for it so I have more room to spare, weight wise.

If anyone really wants to sell their tower shields, I'll have Torgan buy them (and scrap them) to keep the market from getting bloated with tower shields that folks want to sell for pennies.

Edit: You may have company with your newfound weight issues. Double-bladed swords also went from 4.4 to the correct 15 pounds.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 07:23:32 PM by ethinos »
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Re: Tower Shields - Now weigh almost as much as armor!
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 07:57:22 PM »
Personally, I think the weight is appropriate.  Let's be honest, the advantages are HUGE!  +3 ac is a lot, and add another +1 for crafted/masterwork items?

I think this balances the one hand vs. two hand decision fighters have to make.  I almost NEVER see people running around with great swords or double bladed items.
Perhaps this will solve that :)

I myself do not appreciate the extra weight, as it'll put me over my limit (before loot) for sure.  But, I'm willing to take the hit.

Also, +4 AC on tower shields would be nice, but I'm not willing to take the -2 attack bonus hit as per PnP rulebooks.  That would suck real bad.
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