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Author Topic: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion  (Read 2513 times)

Arch_Angel00

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Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« on: July 27, 2008, 03:16:38 PM »
So this weapon is supposed to be advantageous to use when disarming and tripping (knockdown) opponents, according to rules established by NWN and PnP.  However, especially because everyone already gets the Disarm feat for free, I dont see the point to using it.  Sure, whips give you disarm for free, but when the attempt is made at -6ab, and your opponent gets a free shot on you, youll probably wind up dead before being sucessful.  Add to this the fact that based on game mechanics, it is easier to disarm using a longsword than a whip because longswords are medium sized weapons, while whips are considered small sized weapons, giving the longsword a +4 advantage in opposed attack roll.  So I was thinking, and propose the following changes be made to the whip to show it some love:

+4AB.  Whips are designed to wrap around objects, objects being weapons, hands, arms, legs, whatever.  By giving the weapon +4, it gives a bonus to the whip for knockdown and disarm attempts, which should be rather blatant so see when you picture someone trying to disarm/kd you when using a longsword, and then compare it to someone trying to do the same thing to you when using a whip.  There needs to be some sort of bonus to using a whip when making these sorts of attacks compared to other weapons since the whip was made for doing these sorts of attacks.  I chose +4 since it is the equivalent of using 1 size weapon higher for disarm, and being 1 size larger for knockdown.  Whips cant be used in the off-hand, so youll either be at -2 ab using a small or tiny weapon in your off-hand, or -4 ab for using a medium weapon in your off-hand, thus negating the bonus to using the whip for knockdown anyway.  Actually, perhaps it should be +6 since youll most likely be using a weapon in your off-hand, giving you a -2 for dual wielding during your attack anyway, bringing us back to the origional proposal of +4ab when actually making the kd/disarm attempt?

NO COMBAT DAMAGE.  First and foremost, a lot of the creatures here that Ive seen (and the majority that I havent) have some sort of +/dr to them.  By making the whip deal no actual damage, then you wont see everyone and their mother picking one up just to be able to beat on the damage resistant creatures.  The only thing they will be good for is knockdown and disarm, as it should be.  Well that and torture, which could just as easily be RPed anyway.  Which also brings me to my second point; those wearing armor cannot be harmed by whips anyway, at least according to PnP.  And even monsters with either a +2 or +3 natural ac (cant rememberw which) arent supposed to harmed by whips either. 

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 03:29:00 PM by Delphinidae »

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2008, 03:30:50 PM »
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ethinos

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2008, 05:21:12 PM »
Even with No Damage, the weapon will still cause damage because of your strength modifier and if you have sneak attack or similar. Therefore, you'd still have a +4 weapon doing damage to things like Balors.
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Ric

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2008, 05:40:38 PM »
Wish it were possible to change the no-damage property to actually be what it says:  No damage.  That'd be nice for theatre performances or training.

I remember how ridiculous it was when James and Ginger did the play last year.  Even with using stage weapons, James nearly murdered the poor bastard.

Rex

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 09:21:58 AM »
Even with No Damage, the weapon will still cause damage because of your strength modifier and if you have sneak attack or similar. Therefore, you'd still have a +4 weapon doing damage to things like Balors.

You can assign negative damage as well.  That helps.

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Arch_Angel00

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 10:08:02 AM »
I just thought of that too.  What if you add a -10dmg penalty on top of the No Combat damage property.  Would that prevent any str damage from getting through?

Kendaric

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 10:43:55 AM »
I just thought of that too.  What if you add a -10dmg penalty on top of the No Combat damage property.  Would that prevent any str damage from getting through?

No, you'd still cause the minimum damage (1 point).

failed.bard

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 10:44:52 AM »
  -10 damage would still allow 3rd level+ rogues to do sneak attack damage with it.  A high level rogue could have someone KD spam and kill anything in game with it on the 20-30 damage a shot they'd still be getting.

Rex

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 12:18:22 PM »
  -10 damage would still allow 3rd level+ rogues to do sneak attack damage with it.  A high level rogue could have someone KD spam and kill anything in game with it on the 20-30 damage a shot they'd still be getting.

Really the only thing a whip needs, is a bump up in the feat from Disarm, to Improved Disarm.  The rest is all relative.  I think one time I fiddled around with whips in the tool set and made one that wouldn't really do damage (was setting up a sort of Con Damaging Flogging Item) but it was a long time back and I don't remember what I piled onto it.

Anyway, back to work.

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 06:14:15 PM »
honestly. . .whips are whips. If you make a whip similiar to that of the other nice weapons which can be found then be happy there with that. There is no need to add feats/change feats/ or ab on them.

Simply make a whips that acts like the decalcifier or cinder axe that can be found, maybe call it the licking flame. 
Disarm is given to everyone. So dis arm need not be on the whips. Improved disarm should not be granted just for using a whip, such a thing takes practice and skill, and its not something that a whip would automatically give you. If any have tried to use a whip for such a thing they can attest to that. Whips are easy to make noises with, but honestly, very hard to fight with.

Rex

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 06:20:42 PM »
honestly. . .whips are whips. If you make a whip similiar to that of the other nice weapons which can be found then be happy there with that. There is no need to add feats/change feats/ or ab on them.

Simply make a whips that acts like the decalcifier or cinder axe that can be found, maybe call it the licking flame. 
Disarm is given to everyone. So dis arm need not be on the whips. Improved disarm should not be granted just for using a whip, such a thing takes practice and skill, and its not something that a whip would automatically give you. If any have tried to use a whip for such a thing they can attest to that. Whips are easy to make noises with, but honestly, very hard to fight with.

Whip comes with Disarm, because one of the first and easiest tricks you learn with it when you become familier with it's use, is ripping things out of people hands, teeth, ears what have you.  It's a basic function of the weapon, even in the real world.

Adding improved Disarm to the whip would scale it up to be competitive with the environment of POTM, where Joe Schmo gets Disarm for free.  Since skill in the whip basically gives you disarm as a feature of it's skill in other settings and in the rules, when you DON'T have disarm, there is nothing wrong with it granting you IMPROVED disarm, if you DO get the disarm feat for nothing.

It keeps it in perspective, would probably cut down on people buying the suped up Chain whips and such and crafting them back to look like a normal whip.

Remember that exotic weapon feat is needed to use a whip and that means, you are not some schmuck, trying to make a whip crack.  You are the guy, that can take someones eye out with the thing fairly easily.

~Rex
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ethinos

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 06:28:16 PM »
Whip comes with Disarm, because one of the first and easiest tricks you learn with it when you become familier with it's use, is ripping things out of people hands, teeth, ears what have you.  It's a basic function of the weapon, even in the real world.

Adding improved Disarm to the whip would scale it up to be competitive with the environment of POTM, where Joe Schmo gets Disarm for free.  Since skill in the whip basically gives you disarm as a feature of it's skill in other settings and in the rules, when you DON'T have disarm, there is nothing wrong with it granting you IMPROVED disarm, if you DO get the disarm feat for nothing.

Honestly, I think we should leave the whip alone and remove Disarm as an automatic feat. Disarming someone is a lot harder to do than knocking someone on their butt, and should require significant training.

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It keeps it in perspective, would probably cut down on people buying the suped up Chain whips and such and crafting them back to look like a normal whip.

To me, this is a variant of cheesing. I always wince when someone wants Torgan to craft a set of full plate that looks like evening clothes. In the future, I'll simply just deny it, though it would be nice if DM's could help enforce this issue.

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Remember that exotic weapon feat is needed to use a whip and that means, you are not some schmuck, trying to make a whip crack.  You are the guy, that can take someones eye out with the thing fairly easily.

As for this, I wish you had to take Exotic weapon feat FOR EACH EXOTIC WEAPON you wish to learn. Knowing how to use a whip, doesn't mean you know how to use a bastard sword, or a scythe.
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Serevain

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2008, 06:31:08 PM »
Are exotics individual feats in NWN2?


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ethinos

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Re: Items - Whip Improvement Suggestion
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 06:35:24 PM »
Doesn't sound like it. (No scythes?)

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This feat allows the character to use the bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, kama, katana, and shuriken

I'm pretty sure my recommendation is more along the lines of how AD&D 2nd Edition worked, but its been awhile since I messed with exotics in that game system.

Edit: Nevermind, scythes are apparently a martial weapon. Uh huh.
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Kurgh: A simple herdsman