Author Topic: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion  (Read 8375 times)

k_moustakas

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2008, 11:21:53 AM »
I'd rather we didn't nerf it.

I have been looking very forward to putting a point to it and grabbing it at level 16 (my wis is now ten, hoping to add the point at 6)

And yes, I am expecting it to be rather powerfull at that level. Level 16 with +5 from cha aught to be dc 23 or something?
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Rex

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2008, 12:24:21 PM »
I'd rather we didn't nerf it.

I have been looking very forward to putting a point to it and grabbing it at level 16 (my wis is now ten, hoping to add the point at 6)

And yes, I am expecting it to be rather powerfull at that level. Level 16 with +5 from cha aught to be dc 23 or something?

I don't want anything nerfed really but my point is, Warding Gesture (vs undead), should be LESS effective, then Turn Undead, for reasons being that it IS not the holy divine right power possessed by Clerics and Paladins.  It's the same thing as tossing salt over ones shoulder to prevent bad luck, leaving milk out for the brownie, and spitting between two fingers to ward off demons.  It's Hedge Witchery at best, and should never over shadow the Real versions.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2008, 06:01:44 PM »
Both Warding Gesture and Turn Undead work as they should as per Ravenloft canon.

Turn Undead is weaker than it would normally be because of the Unspoken Pact and the realm tampering with your clerical abilities; much like how necromantic spells are empowered in Ravenloft. Warding Gesture is a superstition thing, you learnt a gesture in your life that was supposed to ward off evils and it turns out that this gesture actually does work (either because of the conviction put into it or because it is a weakness of the monster type).

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2008, 11:02:42 PM »
Warding Gesture, is basically the equivalent of flashing gang signs.  It's the Gesture itself that has the effect, NOT the person flashing it.

I would say this is incorrect. It's been restated oh so many times that the most powerful force in the multiverse is ~belief~. Anybody familiar enough with planar campaigns knows this, through belief miraculous things are possible and it works anywhere more or less. If enough people believe in something truly, things happen.

Gods can die. Gods can be born. Gods can be resurrected. Entire parts of planes can shift to other planes. People can become deified. People can change the entire way the multiverse works around them, all through pure belief alone. Entire societies are born through these philosophies driven by thought-guilds around the planes.

The power of gods is severely hampered in RL due to the nature of the demiplane itself, belief however is a constant of reality. Warding gesture is nothing different than any of that. If a person fervently believes it works, it works.

I'd rather enjoy seeing the effects of what would happen if a Dustman found herself in Ravenloft.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 11:07:00 PM by Ruxandra »
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2008, 03:04:40 AM »
Ruxandra... what you just said makes so much of a point all of sudden... Dustman in Ravenloft!
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2008, 03:26:44 PM »
I'm not familiar with Warding Gesture, personally, but a few thoughts on the matter...

In a place like Ravenloft, it seems very appropriate that some individuals who have had extended contact with the creatures of the plane would want some manner of secondary defense past their primary mode of attack.  A bit of "hedge witchery" seems appropriate in this case - especially what with all the muddled faiths in this setting.

If you want to drop a feat slot on Warding Gesture, so be it.

However, I also agree that this should be second-class relative to Turn Undead.

While belief might be the most powerful force in the multiverse, the focus and conduit of said belief is also immensely important.  A cleric, who has been trained to impose his beliefs upon the physical world must surely be more adept at channeling the positive energy required to destroy, turn or control (I guess in this case you're actually channeling negative energy?  unsure) undead beings.

Charisma or not, it's a class convention that has been around for a while.  Just because a rogue has been taught how to "ward against the evil eye" doesn't mean he will be able to do so more effectively than someone who makes it their business and profession to familiarize themselves with such arcana.

Different classes do different things and are good/bad at them depending upon the class/feat/skill choices they make.  It's hard to be a jack of all trades.

Once again, just a new player's opinion... and I've never even used the feat.
It just sounds somewhat overpowered from what I've read (DC 24 turn Evil/Planar/Undead on rogues/sorcerors?  Seriously?)
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2008, 10:39:31 PM »
However, I also agree that this should be second-class relative to Turn Undead.

While belief might be the most powerful force in the multiverse, the focus and conduit of said belief is also immensely important.  A cleric, who has been trained to impose his beliefs upon the physical world must surely be more adept at channeling the positive energy required to destroy, turn or control (I guess in this case you're actually channeling negative energy?  unsure) undead beings.

The problem with your surmisation is you assume too many things. You assume both characters (the gesturerer and the turner) are doing the same thing and that all things are equal in this particular location. Neither are true.

A cleric, more or less has a living, personal conduit to a god somewhere else. Through this conduit spells come, prayers can be heard, and energy can be channeled. All of this is affected by planar influences and specifics once that cleric leaves the prime plane or their god's home plane. The further out they go, the more their spell might diminishes (usually), energy channeling power might be utterly compromised to the point of being unavailable, etc. Ravenloft horribly compromises the conduits of clerics in ways that it's theorized they don't even have true conduits to their gods anymore, but are plied with power from some other source (gods don't send omens or interfere, seem incontactable, etc).

Belief on the other hand, is a prime source of power unaffected by any plane and yes, if true enough and strong enough, can triumph over gods. Making hand gestures isn't important, belief the hand gesture works is important (making a manikin doing the hand gesture and setting it in the open won't ward off a vampire... nor will someone doing it who doesn't really believe, ie, doesn't have the feat).

It's very much akin to the fervent believer holding up a holy symbol of the god they believe in to ward off a vampire. That character doesn't have to be a cleric for that to work. That character's god doesn't even have to be known to the vampire (doesn't even have to be a real god even). It has nothing to do with the god at all, merely the belief of the true believer.

Turn undead (like magic) is based wholly on planar mechanics and metaphysics. In Ravenloft, at times and places it doesn't even work or is altered. It's very much like spotty cell phone service, being uncontactable due to interference randomly. But your belief is very much like a monk's Ki. It's a constant, tappable well-spring unaffected by such things since you and you alone are the originator of it's power.
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2008, 11:24:31 PM »
Warding gesture may be a straight conversion from the PnP material, but no PnP DM I've ever came across would allow you to gain supernatural stats like we have here.

"Here's my character sheet."

"Um, what's with this 20 Charisma? No."

"But I haven't even put my next 5 points into Charisma yet as he gains levels to 20! And, ... he's like a beacon of personal power."

"Beacon of power? Ok, he spontaneously bursts into flames. Now. Dead. And a cow falls from space and lands on his ashes. Roll a new character."

With more realistic Charisma scores, I think Turn Undead would be more competitive with Warding Gesture.
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2008, 03:39:26 AM »
if i recall correctly, and i have to look it up once i get home, even in ravenloft turning undead is still suspose to work the same as anywhere else. It is simply that the undead are much more resistant to it than anywhere else.  ie typically to turn a lvl 2 or 3 undead you would need 4-6 cleric with an alright cha, but in ravenloft, to turn these undead you would have to be 8-10 i think. . or something like that.  The undead can still take damage from turning, and even lesser undead can be destroied by it.

I will look it up once i get home to make sure i am correct there on that, but i am fairly certain that it is onyl their turning level that is raised, and only epic undead which really can't be turned or are immune to it. A misc skeleton would still run the risk of being turned to dust by a high level cleric.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2008, 07:23:26 AM »
Undead can't be destroyed by turning in ravenloft.  My paladin at level 4, with a horrible charisma, could still turn the weaker skeletons.  There's ne reason a cleric with good charisma at 4th wouldn't be better at it.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2008, 09:50:14 AM »
Undead gain +2 turn resistance in Ravenloft. Turn Undead remaisn unaffected.

Ruxandras assessment is correct, Warding Gesture has nothing to do with any god or particular denomination- in the book "I, Strahd" Strahd describes feeling a buffet of "wind" ever time a Barovian makes the undescribed "sign against evil" (it is of course not powerful enough to affect him and barely noticable with time), suggesting that pretty much every Barovian peasent knows a warding gesture with some minimal effect.

Turn Undead and Warding Gesture are different things. Turning undead is brandishing the power of your will and your god directly in a flash of light, warding gesture is making a superstitious symbol and hoping to god it works. Both are affected by how confident you are, but Turn Undead is made more affective by your gods blessings.

Also, Warding Gesture inflicts fear in said monster for a short time, so long as they see the gesture and fail their save. Turned creatures are, well, TURNED (which in PNP terms is not exactly the same and is simply made into fear by the NWN engine) and there is a possibility they die instantly as well.

Warding Gesture cannot be used on the same creature twice in the same day.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2008, 02:24:49 PM »
Warding guesture is more effective because it has no limit to how many things you can turn.  I was in the northern part of the sullen woods, and I had the entire map load of shadow fiends chasing me, and I made about 30 of them run screaming from one guesture.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2008, 03:43:25 PM »
Next person that tries to tell me, that a Peasent living in the scrub bush, has more Belief, with his raised two fingers and spit through them make the undead run away power, then a Faith Driven, implement of the Gods that can raise the Dead with a snap of his fingers cleric, is going to earn my eternal ire.  In terms of Oomph, againt Undead, Turn Undead should be more effective then the warding gesture version.  If warding gesture is more effective in game then that's a miscarry of justice as far as balance goes.


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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2008, 07:58:06 PM »
Yes but Warding gesture can only be used on the same creature ONCE, Turn Undead can be used PERPETUALLY. Turn undead can also DESTROY undead.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2008, 08:00:44 PM »
Turn undead can also DESTROY undead.

Not here it can't.
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2008, 08:30:32 PM »
Turn undead can also DESTROY undead.

Not here it can't.

Don't think the evil clerics can control them either (at least not without the spell).

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2008, 08:46:27 PM »
Yes, it can. I've done it, to weaker undead. As for rebuking undead, thats a bioware lacking.

Why this sudden stink over gesture? It's not even that ubur of an ability- you have to take a FEAT for each creature type you want to affect. Turn undead is an automatically accrued ability.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2008, 10:14:41 PM »
Next person that tries to tell me, that a Peasent living in the scrub bush, has more Belief, with his raised two fingers and spit through them make the undead run away power, then a Faith Driven, implement of the Gods that can raise the Dead with a snap of his fingers cleric, is going to earn my eternal ire.  In terms of Oomph, againt Undead, Turn Undead should be more effective then the warding gesture version.  If warding gesture is more effective in game then that's a miscarry of justice as far as balance goes.


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Ohnoes! I can has eternal ire? I'd say it again, but it's pointless, just reread my post if you want to give me ire. ~Belief~ is the most important power in the multiverse, bar none. In the multiverse, there are level 1 characters who can imagine level 20 characters out of existence with a thought, walk around the undead with impunity at any level, channel divine spells up to 4th level from gods that don't exist (merely by believing they do) and find loopholes in the fabric of existence that allow them to do fantastic things merely by belief (and proper roleplay, of course).

Clerics have very little to do with actual belief or even faith in D&D. You don't need to have much faith when you can wake up and enact 5 miracles before breakfast (even minor healing). It's a fact of life at that point. However, large masses of people fervently believing in something truly are more than enough to enact change on a metaphysical level in D&D reality. Given that demiplanes themselves are indescribable with any consistency as their originators can literally set in place the laws of reality they have (including gravity, physical makeup, magical law and the like), Ravenloft can change at a glance overnight if whatever dark agency in command of it decides on a whim to cut off all access to the Positive Energy Plane or even nullify magic altogether.

Turn/rebuke/command undead is not fancy. It's not even constant. In most planes it's not even usable. It's merely using one's conduit to a god to redirect-siphon positive/negative energy to their position from it's plane. It's not holy power, it's not even godstuff, it's the equivalent of channeling the elemental-stuff of an inner plane to your position and as such it's entirely mechanical and subject to planar metaphysics and geography, of which Ravenloft hampers and alters very much.

As far "miscarriages of justice" in balance goes, last I checked spending a feat and relying on 2 stats (wisdom and charisma both) for efficiency is a lot more costly than "free with an uberclass" and relying purely on charisma alone.
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2008, 11:50:50 PM »
I have yet to see a single undead destroyed by my turn undead. I would figure a level 4 cleric with 14 CHA could destroy a simple decrepit skeleton.

Also, to put into perspective the belief thing...

You cannot compare the average joe to a priest or bishop. Now then, there may be settings that allow these people who somehow transcend reality to believe in abstract concepts, but thats frankly very, very, very rare in ANY form, fantasy or not. Clerics are vessels of their own god's will and might. Simply put, most people who use superstitious signs don't have the kind of belief that a Priest has for his/her god. Its frankly stupid to think that someone tossing salt over their shoulder has more belief in that superstition than someone who has dedicated their entire LIFE to service of a single entity, and taken vows, oaths, and sworn to follow tenets of that one faith dutifully, forever.

Right, to continue.. *second edit*

I don't think that a priest who wakes every day and thinks "Oh, *yawn* another 5 miracles today" should keep their powers for long. These powers are granted through their god, and someone who stops frankly giving a damn will draw the ire of that god eventually. That example is a lack of belief, or rather, a lax in true belief and worship. I don't know where you get these level ones thinking people or things into existence, but i can say quite frankly, this is NOT the multiverse. This is one single demiplane. Stop drawing from abstract sources that are made for epic-level mass magic campagins that can have a simple commoner doing the most ridiculous of thing becase he believes he can, somehow with the fervent belief to make Cadderly himself look like an apostate. It's embarassing, I agree, that too few clerics actually RP their devotion and oaths to their gods, or even do the research for it, but it doesn't suddenly make this single thing better in any way.

I agree, it takes more to get the feat and its in itself not too powerful, its rather balanced with its requirements. Turn undead is limited though, mostly being used as a stepping stone to a Divine Might or Divine Shield use.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 12:09:42 AM by Nightmare »
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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2008, 11:53:12 PM »
That's because here in the demiplane of dread, undead aren't destroyed by it. Just turned.


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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2008, 12:17:41 AM »
I think i've obliterated Skeletal Children before.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2008, 12:26:57 AM »
Wow ive got no idea what's going on in this conversation.

Cant we just use the damn game mechanics for a change? Lol.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2008, 12:49:28 AM »
I think i've obliterated Skeletal Children before.

i recall a few updates back they adjusted the tu rn undead was this oblitering before that change or since then?

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2008, 04:17:01 AM »
Warding Gesture cannot be used on the same creature twice in the same day.

I've turned the same creature more than once in one day with warding guesture.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2008, 09:59:32 AM »
Warding Gesture cannot be used on the same creature twice in the same day.

I've turned the same creature more than once in one day with warding guesture.

Same.

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