Author Topic: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion  (Read 8377 times)

Rex

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Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« on: July 24, 2008, 10:42:09 AM »
I like how I can make a greater agarat run with a guesture, but not even a decrepit skeleton is afraid of my turn undead.

if your cha is high enoug ward gesture kicks butt honestly if i ever made a sorc i'd be with at least a 12 wis and then buff the cha out the arse like i did with drudoc she turns werebeasties like crazy even negs a few times and i think but i'm not sure julia too correct me if i'm wrong eo :D

I would actually like to see a few things set up that would work without having to be a Buff machine.  Also in reply to the Turn Undead vs Warding Gestures Undead, warding gestures DOES trump Turn Undead.  I think that mechanic should be looked at a bit since warding gestures SHOULD be inferior to Turn Undead.

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Kendaric

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Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »
I like how I can make a greater agarat run with a guesture, but not even a decrepit skeleton is afraid of my turn undead.

if your cha is high enoug ward gesture kicks butt honestly if i ever made a sorc i'd be with at least a 12 wis and then buff the cha out the arse like i did with drudoc she turns werebeasties like crazy even negs a few times and i think but i'm not sure julia too correct me if i'm wrong eo :D

I would actually like to see a few things set up that would work without having to be a Buff machine.  Also in reply to the Turn Undead vs Warding Gestures Undead, warding gestures DOES trump Turn Undead.  I think that mechanic should be looked at a bit since warding gestures SHOULD be inferior to Turn Undead.

~Rex


In many (if not most cases) Warding Gesture is inferior to Turn Undead (and should always be). It requires a high CHA to be of any use and affected creatures get a saving throw. It is, admittedly, quite powerful vs. mindless undead as they'll fail their saves often but against the more powerful it's next to useless unless your CHA is rather high.
It be worth to try to limit it to using the basic CHA score rather than the modified score including buffs (not sure if that's possible though).

Rex

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Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 11:22:11 AM »
It should be possible.  That would relegate the buff to the rightfully more powerful Turn Undead as opposed to the warding gesture.

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Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 11:29:32 AM »
It should be possible.  That would relegate the buff to the rightfully more powerful Turn Undead as opposed to the warding gesture.

~Rex


then essientailly though you reduce warding gesture to being only useful to sorc and bards and a lesser extent some paladins and clerics

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Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 11:55:11 AM »
Can I ask what the reasoning is behind not wanting the buffs to apply?  I kind of understand it in the crafting system (though I still don't completely agree with that decision), but here it really doesn't make much sense to me.  If someone's had a mystical enhancement to his force of will and personality (or however you want to define Charisma) then it should apply whenever he's using it.  Unless this feat is meant to be capped at a certain effect (I'm not too familiar with how it works), this strikes me as exactly the situation that stat buffs were designed for.  Wouldn't it be like saying that Bull's Strength should only affect melee attack and damage, but not add into bashing attempts?  Or that Cat's Grace should affect ranged attack and reflex saves, but not weapon finesse melee attacks? 

The buff would affect both Turn Undead and Warding Gesture. It seems to me that if the latter is outperforming the former when both are buffed, the problem you're looking to solve isn't with the stat buffs, it's with how the two powers work.  Maybe Warding Gesture needs to be toned down overall.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 12:07:20 PM »
The buff would affect both Turn Undead and Warding Gesture. It seems to me that if the latter is outperforming the former when both are buffed, the problem you're looking to solve isn't with the stat buffs, it's with how the two powers work.  Maybe Warding Gesture needs to be toned down overall.

it already HAS been turned down before when i first got it with drudoc you could be in an circle around say undead and use it like turn undead not you have to be in direct line of sight and a certain close range for it to work plus i think the monsters that can get effected by it had there wis/will's adjusted slightly

my honest opinon with two pcs playing with this feat one a cha whore and another not the feat is best used at lvls 6+ as thats when it gets honestly effective for those that are cha based

Rex

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 02:37:55 PM »
Can I ask what the reasoning is behind not wanting the buffs to apply?  I kind of understand it in the crafting system (though I still don't completely agree with that decision), but here it really doesn't make much sense to me.  If someone's had a mystical enhancement to his force of will and personality (or however you want to define Charisma) then it should apply whenever he's using it.  Unless this feat is meant to be capped at a certain effect (I'm not too familiar with how it works), this strikes me as exactly the situation that stat buffs were designed for.  Wouldn't it be like saying that Bull's Strength should only affect melee attack and damage, but not add into bashing attempts?  Or that Cat's Grace should affect ranged attack and reflex saves, but not weapon finesse melee attacks? 

The buff would affect both Turn Undead and Warding Gesture. It seems to me that if the latter is outperforming the former when both are buffed, the problem you're looking to solve isn't with the stat buffs, it's with how the two powers work.  Maybe Warding Gesture needs to be toned down overall.

Turn Undead is a class ability.  It's something the Class is supposed to be able to do, and do well, in combination with other things that class can do.

Warding Gesture, is basically the equivalent of flashing gang signs.  It's the Gesture itself that has the effect, NOT the person flashing it.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 03:36:23 PM »
Turn Undead is a class ability.  It's something the Class is supposed to be able to do, and do well, in combination with other things that class can do.

Warding Gesture, is basically the equivalent of flashing gang signs.  It's the Gesture itself that has the effect, NOT the person flashing it.

So are you suggesting that it should be Dex-based?  Or that it should have a set effect not dependent on any stat?  Either of those fit what your describing.  I'm still not clear on why if it's based on Charisma, it should be based only on unmodified Charisma.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 03:50:11 PM »
Turn Undead is a class ability.  It's something the Class is supposed to be able to do, and do well, in combination with other things that class can do.

Warding Gesture, is basically the equivalent of flashing gang signs.  It's the Gesture itself that has the effect, NOT the person flashing it.

So are you suggesting that it should be Dex-based?  Or that it should have a set effect not dependent on any stat?  Either of those fit what your describing.  I'm still not clear on why if it's based on Charisma, it should be based only on unmodified Charisma.

Because it's NOT anything, it's a Rude Gesture, that the monster finds offensive.  Not something that really should be boostable by magic, but something that could reasonably be more effective, if used by someone with more force of personality.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 03:57:18 PM »

Because it's NOT anything, it's a Rude Gesture, that the monster finds offensive.  Not something that really should be boostable by magic, but something that could reasonably be more effective, if used by someone with more force of personality.

~Rex


But isnt that what a charisma buff would do?  Make you feel more confident, thus increasing your force of personality, thereby making your gesture more intimidating/offensive/whatever?

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 04:03:55 PM »
But isnt that what a charisma buff would do?  Make you feel more confident, thus increasing your force of personality, thereby making your gesture more intimidating/offensive/whatever?

Exactly.  This is the point that has me confused.  It's not Eagle's Improved Warding Gesture, it's Eagle's Splendor, and it affects everything Charisma-based.  If someone with a stronger force of personality gets a better effect, then someone whose force of personality has been artificially increased should also get a better effect.  It goes back to my examples earlier of Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace only affecting some uses of those stats and not everything.

Kendaric

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 05:58:17 PM »

Because it's NOT anything, it's a Rude Gesture, that the monster finds offensive.  Not something that really should be boostable by magic, but something that could reasonably be more effective, if used by someone with more force of personality.

~Rex


But isnt that what a charisma buff would do?  Make you feel more confident, thus increasing your force of personality, thereby making your gesture more intimidating/offensive/whatever?

I guess that depends on how one would view the buff... I've always thought of Eagle's Splendor as making the recipient more attractive rather than more confident, hence my suggestion not to count in the buff.
The same applies to, say, the CHA buff from bathing in the tub in Tigan's Rest. It would make you more attractive since you're clean and don't smell bad, but it wouldn't necessarily make you more confident.

Basically, the way I  see it:

Warding Gesture is presenting the holy symbol in front of the vampire and holding him at bay with your own force of personality/will.

Warding Gesture with CHA buff (Eagle's Splendor or whatever) is presenting the holy symbol in front of the vampire, holding him at bay with your own force of personality/will and looking good while doing it. And I highly doubt the vampire cares whether you look good or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'd benefit alot from being able to get my fighter's CHA buffed and using it with Warding Gesture but not counting the buffs seems a rather fair way to balance Warding Gesture against Turn Undead.

Rex

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 06:04:58 PM »

Because it's NOT anything, it's a Rude Gesture, that the monster finds offensive.  Not something that really should be boostable by magic, but something that could reasonably be more effective, if used by someone with more force of personality.

~Rex


But isnt that what a charisma buff would do?  Make you feel more confident, thus increasing your force of personality, thereby making your gesture more intimidating/offensive/whatever?

I guess that depends on how one would view the buff... I've always thought of Eagle's Splendor as making the recipient more attractive rather than more confident, hence my suggestion not to count in the buff.
The same applies to, say, the CHA buff from bathing in the tub in Tigan's Rest. It would make you more attractive since you're clean and don't smell bad, but it wouldn't necessarily make you more confident.

Basically, the way I  see it:

Warding Gesture is presenting the holy symbol in front of the vampire and holding him at bay with your own force of personality/will.

Warding Gesture with CHA buff (Eagle's Splendor or whatever) is presenting the holy symbol in front of the vampire, holding him at bay with your own force of personality/will and looking good while doing it. And I highly doubt the vampire cares whether you look good or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'd benefit alot from being able to get my fighter's CHA buffed and using it with Warding Gesture but not counting the buffs seems a rather fair way to balance Warding Gesture against Turn Undead.

Right.  Turn Undead is the power of a Clerics Faith and the Power of that Clerics Divine Patron.  Holy power that can at high enough levels, make Undead Explode.

Warding Gesture, is a "gang sign".  Sometimes it's a good idea to run from the Crips or the bloods, other times, you are just not going to care about how good looking the sign flasher is.

~Rex


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KoopaFanatic

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2008, 06:28:03 PM »
Yeah, but one of the things that got emphasized a lot with the introduction of the sorcerer was that Charisma is not how attractive you are, and is instead based on this nebulous "force of personality" idea.  There were some early ask-the-designer articles posted on WotC's website right after 3e came out talking about how Charisma is Charisma is Charisma.  The Charisma that factors into your Diplomacy roll is the same Charisma that determines your sorcerer/bard spellcasting ability.  A change in your Charisma affects everything.  For that matter, let's look at the text of the Eagle's Splendor spell from the 3.5 SRD:

Quote
The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Sorcerers and bards (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell’s effect do increase.
(Emphasis added)

It's not about being prettier.

So what exactly is a "warding gesture"?  (I'm not being snarky, I don't have the text handy.)  If it's basically a specialized form of intimidation, like a gang sign, then Charisma should apply, and a more forceful person should be better at it regardless of why they're more forceful.  If it's a ritual that if performed correctly creates or channels some sort of supernatural power, then it should be analogized to one of the spellcasting styles and turn undead, in which case Charisma is appropriate (or Wisdom, though I could see less of an argument for Intelligence being the stat in play).  The solutions that come to mind that don't involve Charisma would have it either be Dex-based (how well you perform the complex movements) or an automatic per-use effect you get when you take the feat and not based on any stat at all (you either know the secret handshake or you don't).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 06:59:14 PM by KoopaFanatic »

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2008, 06:47:11 PM »
  Hmm.. while it is in part the necessity of the precision of how the gesture is displayed.  The fact that it works is more to do with the conviction that it actually works, I would therefore believe it would be tied to most likely both Charisma and Wisdom scores, obviously taking whichever one is the higher stat bonus for effect.  As it is in part a force of personality that is channeled through the conviction of believing the gesture works. 

  Charisma encompasses many things, from how you talk, how you stand, how you move, how you look, how you dress, how you act.  What are the one things that most charismatic people give off, it's confidence, they look, feel, act and are confident.  Some are attractive others are not.  While an uncharismatic person could be nice looking, they are very unsure, un-confident and look, feel, and act awkwardly and tend to be shunned for such.  Which is why I find it funny when those unappealing presence types are shining beacons of starlight gathering others to them easily.  Not to say that uncharismatic people don't draw or have friends, just that they do it so easily or garner it with award winning role playing skillz.   :)  (not bein crass about it.. just amused)

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2008, 09:37:24 PM »
Is there ANY point in an 18th level PC taking it if they only have 10 Cha? Besides RP

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Rex

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2008, 11:33:47 PM »
Is there ANY point in an 18th level PC taking it if they only have 10 Cha? Besides RP

Yeah you learned some Gangsta Street Cred Yo........Now you can Flashizzile them Signs, make them Po Po lovein Undeads skip to steppin Yo.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2008, 11:40:34 PM »
The DC is based on your level, too.  Yes, it would be powerful if you took it at 18th level, even with only 10 charisma.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 11:42:39 PM »
Perhaps we could drop the warding sign being a gang sign metaphor? I feel it's a little insulting to people who might have the feat since it belittles it to nothing else than a... gang sign. Let's remember that warding gesture per excellence is the one against the evil eye.


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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 12:47:13 AM »
Is there ANY point in an 18th level PC taking it if they only have 10 Cha? Besides RP

you couldnt actually because you need a min of 12 wis AND 12 cha to take it

Helaman

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 01:30:15 AM »
Well - there goes that option :lol:

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 02:55:32 AM »
Haha, good point there.

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 07:35:53 AM »
Wilhelm has a warding gesture, and only an 11 charisma.  The requisites amy not be being checked properly if it's supposed to need a 12 charisma.

Kendaric

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2008, 08:04:36 AM »
Wilhelm has a warding gesture, and only an 11 charisma.  The requisites amy not be being checked properly if it's supposed to need a 12 charisma.

It's absolutely correct... the prerequisites are WIS 11, CHA 11

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Re: Feat - Warding Guesture - Discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2008, 10:12:48 AM »
Wilhelm has a warding gesture, and only an 11 charisma.  The requisites amy not be being checked properly if it's supposed to need a 12 charisma.

It's absolutely correct... the prerequisites are WIS 11, CHA 11

really? strange i recall the description seeming to be 12 and 12 hmm maybe check the descrip for a misprint? or bug on what the min stats need to be? or maybe i'm wrong heh