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Author Topic: Hit point gain at level up  (Read 8226 times)

Holy_Rage

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Hit point gain at level up
« on: July 24, 2008, 02:26:48 AM »
Hello everyone. I don't know if it is a luxury to have or if it is easy to code or not, but at level up, at the last screen before confirming the level up , you got a line "Hit points gained: + xx ". It's the first line appearing in the level up summary box.

Now, I would like to see the "xx" number of hit points be made invisible, so we will avoid min/maxing with hp and for realism's sake. One may argue that one can easily end up with minimal HP gain after a 2-3 rolls. I say this is the more realistic and honest way to level up HP-wise, with not Cancel, start level up process anew until max HP is achieved for that particular level.

Thoughts?

Kung Fu Orc

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 02:30:07 AM »
I'd rather we get automatic HP max roll at lvl up, as is doable in the new update.

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Iconoclast

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 02:43:19 AM »
How are the Hit Points generated with the npc monsters that are faced in pvm?

Do they have max hp or is it random? 

Kung Fu Orc

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 02:46:36 AM »
Thats determined in the creator. You can make a monsters hp anything you want.

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Holy_Rage

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 03:39:13 AM »
I'd rather we get automatic HP max roll at lvl up, as is doable in the new update.

Not really in favor of this. One of the joys of levelling up is the unknown in that aspect, let the dice speak :)

Bad_Bud

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 03:48:29 AM »
The hit dice already don't roll correctly.  My sorceror always gets a 3 or 4 on the roll.  My barbarian's fluctuates a lot more.  I've also noticed the more con you have, the larger the roll's range is.  Unless the rolls are fixed, doing something like that would just torture and punish the fighter classes.  The rogue/fighters would end up with the same hp as a fighter.

boompowclash

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 04:20:30 AM »
In a game where the attribute points are fixed , the hit points probably should be too. (imo)

JipK

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 04:53:08 AM »
You roll a minimum of 55% of the d you are rolling.

k_moustakas

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 05:24:56 AM »
I am in favour of automatic max hit points. 90% of the people already roll and cancel until they get max.

On the other side, try a fighter that rolls 1 for hit points twice in a row and you have a wasted character.
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Kendaric

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 05:45:08 AM »
I am in favour of automatic max hit points. 90% of the people already roll and cancel until they get max.

On the other side, try a fighter that rolls 1 for hit points twice in a row and you have a wasted character.

A wasted character because of two bad rolls in a row? I'd hardly view it that way, sure it makes things a lot more difficult but it doesn't make the character unplayable.
If it's going to be fixed HP, I'd prefer the average die roll over max. HP. NWN2 uses maxed HP by default and it throws quite a bit of balancing out of the window.

If given the choice, I'd go for making the roll invisible like Holy_Rage suggested.

archonzero

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 05:53:52 AM »
I take my HP level rolls if they are 75% or higher, anything less is a waste and gets rerolled.  Especially if you compare the damage output, the crit ranges and high AB of the creatures you face as you get stronger.  Hit points for practically all classes (perhaps casters aside) are a reflection on your ability of resilience to damage.

  For example a level one fighter taking an 11 hp dmg hit is either near mortally wounded or dead.   Same fighter at level two who has had combat or enough field practise can take the same 11 point hit and survive, why cause he's learned to deflect, roll or avoid the majority of the blow.  Either through prediction, premonition, or through reflexive response.  The higher any martially skilled class gains in levels should be reflective of such measures.

  So I for one would vote auto max HP on all classes, just for the sake of not having to reroll.  OR forcible setup the function to set the roll for 50% class HPl + con to max class HP +con ratios.

  just my 2 coppers on HP per level gain.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 05:55:48 AM by archonzero »

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kenpen

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 06:11:44 AM »
Give monsters max HP, for their HD. Give the player characters the max HP, for their HD. That way, it's still balanced, and you won't get killed by a spitwad (unless you're Morgan.) There's enough extra randomness with the Constitution score.

Gilta

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 07:21:30 AM »
I'm with -not- cheesing the dice H. R. , [shrugs] I take what I get. Always. There is a feat if a few HPs are desired. In my experience here, the dice are random as should be, not fixed like others feel above. The thoughts to make all HPs maxed to me is like saying we should remove attack rolls to and take 10 on everything. Before everyone makes a bunch of comments about my opinion, please remember, that is all it is.
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mayvind

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2008, 07:44:55 AM »
I say leave as it is, if you dont like re-roll then dont, if you want to reroll then do, freedom to choose.

P.S, personally i like max hp, because try re-roll it for hours it is booring !
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 08:29:28 AM by mayvind »

Kendaric

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2008, 07:51:06 AM »
Give monsters max HP, for their HD. Give the player characters the max HP, for their HD. That way, it's still balanced, and you won't get killed by a spitwad (unless you're Morgan.) There's enough extra randomness with the Constitution score.


No, it unfortunately doesn't work that way. Everything in D&D is balanced around average HP values: weapon damage, critical hit multipliers, spell damage, etc.
Changing that requires a lot more work than just giving creatures full HP as well, that would accomplish nothing but:

a) Make battles unnecessarily longer
b) Make it a lot more difficult for low levels
c) Make casters slightly weaker (actually a good thing, but not worth the trade-off in my opinion)

There are also effects that are specific to the NWN engine, such as having to manually adjust every creature's CR in the toolset as NWN seems to calculate CR partially based on HP.
For example a standard skeleton in the toolset has a CR of 0.5 and 6 HP (D12 hit die for undead), raising the HP to 12 (maximum for a 1 hit die skeleton) will raise the CR to 1. While it can then be lowered manually to 0.5 again, the skeleton (if employed in the same numbers as before) will be much more of a challenge than it is supposed to be.

Using maxed out HPs for player characters in a heroic setting where the PCs should feel epic and powerful from the beginning might be ok, in a setting like Ravenloft where you should have to constantly fear for your life it would be rather detrimental to the atmosphere.

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2008, 08:18:51 AM »
Maxing out HP has always been at DM's discretion in PnP, we did it because we liked stronger characters and like Ken said, so we don't get killed by a spitwad. In a computer game i don't see why not taking advantage of what we can get, there's no sense in making your character weak on purpose, some weaker points for rp's sake yes but survival is important. Damn famished wolves at lvl 3, trying to eat my measly 21hp q.q

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kenpen

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2008, 08:32:00 AM »
Give monsters max HP, for their HD. Give the player characters the max HP, for their HD. That way, it's still balanced, and you won't get killed by a spitwad (unless you're Morgan.) There's enough extra randomness with the Constitution score.


No, it unfortunately doesn't work that way. Everything in D&D is balanced around average HP values: weapon damage, critical hit multipliers, spell damage, etc.
Changing that requires a lot more work than just giving creatures full HP as well, that would accomplish nothing but:

a) Make battles unnecessarily longer
b) Make it a lot more difficult for low levels
c) Make casters slightly weaker (actually a good thing, but not worth the trade-off in my opinion)

There are also effects that are specific to the NWN engine, such as having to manually adjust every creature's CR in the toolset as NWN seems to calculate CR partially based on HP.
For example a standard skeleton in the toolset has a CR of 0.5 and 6 HP (D12 hit die for undead), raising the HP to 12 (maximum for a 1 hit die skeleton) will raise the CR to 1. While it can then be lowered manually to 0.5 again, the skeleton (if employed in the same numbers as before) will be much more of a challenge than it is supposed to be.

Using maxed out HPs for player characters in a heroic setting where the PCs should feel epic and powerful from the beginning might be ok, in a setting like Ravenloft where you should have to constantly fear for your life it would be rather detrimental to the atmosphere.


Eh. If I wanted to get killed by a single big hit, I'd go play Call of Cthulhu or something. Regardless of Ravenloft being more scary, and low magic, it's still DnD, and this is still a NwN engine that can be very unforgiving. It's not a story-telling engine, and the fear you get from thinking some monster being run by an AI can smack you once and obliterate isn't the same fear as you'd get during a table-top game, with a DM always there tweaking and promoting the atmosphere the entire time. Not killing someone when you can and letting them run (especially here) is a thousand times scarier than dying. Crappy hit points = more chance to be outright slaughtered, and there's no "fear" involved when you pounded into the dirt in two seconds. There's just the inevitable "oh, I'm dead." And then wondering if it's going to be permanent and how long you're going to be out of commision. The real fear disappears the minute you die and can't RP anymore, since the decisions from that point on are totally out of your hands until you're raised.

I'd rather people have max hit points if they want them, and have more of a chance to run like scared children. I'm never scared when I get obliterated by some one shot nonsense (wee, greater ruin!)  I'm just REALLY irritated. I'm scared when I'm getting pounded and can see my steady decline, having time to consider if I should run, or hold out through greed and stubborness and maybe fail due to my own stupidity and not just sheer bad luck. Fear is running for your life, praying you don't die and your weapons don't get stolen, and you don't sit around for an hour waiting for a resurrection. Fear isn't the part where you die from a single 80 point crit from a greater broken one champion, without having had time to consider how screwed you could be.

Holy_Rage

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2008, 09:00:16 AM »
Poll added. A friendly reminder to everyone, this is Holy_Rage gauging interest about it, nothing more, nothing less.

Nefensis

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 09:01:31 AM »
Don't fix what's not broken, there's enough else to be worked on

Too, nothing forces you to max your HP and that others do so, changes nothing to my personal RP experience.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 09:07:22 AM by Nefensis »

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Rex

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2008, 10:38:54 AM »
Hide the number.  There is a reason Hitpoints are Rolled, it's supposed to be one of the variables that sets folks apart.  I take whatever the machine gives me, and I do look down my nose in a snooty manner at those that don't.  In short, it's one of the differences between a ROLE PLAY mechanic, and a Strict Computer Game or Board Game mechanic.  This is also one of the reasons that 4th Ed got rid of rolling hitpoints all together, to get rid of the Muhammad Ali, rope a dope factor when 8 con Charlie (who maxes all of his hitpoints per level) can outlast Forkbeard the Enduring (20 con dwarf that rolls average).  Now, you GET the average as a static, modified by class level and feats, and start with more hitpoints at a lower level as well.

Most of the servers I have played on, Hide that number.  It's always worked out extremely well.

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Ric

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2008, 02:16:27 PM »
The hit dice already don't roll correctly.  My sorceror always gets a 3 or 4 on the roll.  My barbarian's fluctuates a lot more.  I've also noticed the more con you have, the larger the roll's range is.  Unless the rolls are fixed, doing something like that would just torture and punish the fighter classes.  The rogue/fighters would end up with the same hp as a fighter.

He nailed it.  The range between minimum and maximum roll is a lot more troublesome as your character gets more hit points to play with.

If you want my opinion, I'd rather just have it auto-max, since there's a lot of new players to NWN that always randomly come out saying "Crap, I didn't know you could max out, I'll do that next time."  Majority of players favor maxing, it's always been that way, and the current status of the poll is starting to show that, too.

Rex

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2008, 02:33:14 PM »
You can set it to Give the Average of the Roll plus Con as well.  Regardless, I haven't noticed any disparity between my low hit die PC's and my high hit die PC's.  Of course there is a range difference since the lower the hit die, the lower the range.

Having taken the time to sit down and actually measure this effect on a level up with each hit die, I can assure you, AVERAGE, is what comes up the majority of the time.

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Ric

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2008, 04:19:50 PM »
I'll give you a good example:  I have a character that has massive AC, but low HP.  99% of the time, things have to roll a 20 to hit him, so in the end, the time speant actually fighting depends on his HP.

HP is important, it just depends on your other stats.  If you have terrible AC/Saves but high HP, it's more or less not going to mean anything to have HP.

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2008, 04:27:59 PM »
I think it would be smart to hide the HP rolling.  That, or max everyone.  I max my HP only because I know other people max HP as well, so that if I get caught in a PvP situation, I know at -least- in terms of HP we are on equal grounds.  Little bit unfair for my 5th lvl 60hp barb to duke it out with another 5th lvl Barb with 30hp, at least in my mind.

Ric

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Re: Hit point gain at level up
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2008, 04:30:28 PM »
Unless you both have the same exactly equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if the 30 hit point one bested the 60 hit point one.