Author Topic: AI Vs. Low Levels  (Read 9741 times)

kenpen

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2008, 03:58:03 PM »
Maybe the categories should be more along the lines of the way they react, like...

Picks off least visibly weak
Attacks spellcasters first
Always seeks the strongest

...etc.

Based on how they act, rather than their monster type. Undead like skeletal warriors are probably going to hack through whatever is strongest, then closest. Zombies will mindless come at whoever is nearby, not caring if it's a spellcaster or not. Vampire warriors will probably react more like skeletal warriors, and vampire rogues will sneak attack the flanks, etc.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2008, 04:06:01 PM »
Category 1:  Undead (mindless)
Category 2:  Undead (intelligent)
Category 3:  Spider (regular)
Category 4:  Spider (tricky)
Category 5:  Humanoid/giant (dumb)
Category 6:  Humanoid/giant (smrt)
Category 7:  Shapechanger (sneaky/stalking)
Category 8:  Shapechanger (brutal/stubborn)
Category 9:  Animal (solitary)
Category 10:  Animal (pack)
Category 11:  Ooze

I'm probably oversimplifying things, since I know nothing about how this actually works.  My point is that whatever the categories are, they don't have to match up with a creature's Type.  Just a description of how you'd expect it to behave.

Edit: What kenpen said too :)

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2008, 04:21:30 PM »
Category 1:  Undead (mindless)
Category 2:  Undead (intelligent)
Category 3:  Spider (regular)
Category 4:  Spider (tricky)
Category 5:  Humanoid/giant (dumb)
Category 6:  Humanoid/giant (smrt)
Category 7:  Shapechanger (sneaky/stalking)
Category 8:  Shapechanger (brutal/stubborn)
Category 9:  Animal (solitary)
Category 10:  Animal (pack)
Category 11:  Ooze

I'm probably oversimplifying things, since I know nothing about how this actually works.  My point is that whatever the categories are, they don't have to match up with a creature's Type.  Just a description of how you'd expect it to behave.

Edit: What kenpen said too :)
Maybe the categories should be more along the lines of the way they react, like...

Picks off least visibly weak
Attacks spellcasters first
Always seeks the strongest

...etc.

Based on how they act, rather than their monster type. Undead like skeletal warriors are probably going to hack through whatever is strongest, then closest. Zombies will mindless come at whoever is nearby, not caring if it's a spellcaster or not. Vampire warriors will probably react more like skeletal warriors, and vampire rogues will sneak attack the flanks, etc.

Which is all well and good but if you categorize that way you end up multiplying things exponentially, and potentially causing gridlock while the AI tries to figure out if it's a smart undead that should attack the scariest looking guy, or a Dumb Undead that will attack whatever is close.

Roughly put, it works something like a truth table.  Truth Tables start easy, then just explode into complexity.  If you try and give the AI that many options you'll probably end up causing Denmark to Explode when the server goes super critical trying to make it all work.

There are more meta gamish options that good computer guys can make the AI do, but do you really want to face a monster THAT smart?


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tzaeru

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2008, 04:37:39 PM »
Category 1:  Undead (mindless)
Category 2:  Undead (intelligent)
Category 3:  Spider (regular)
Category 4:  Spider (tricky)
Category 5:  Humanoid/giant (dumb)
Category 6:  Humanoid/giant (smrt)
Category 7:  Shapechanger (sneaky/stalking)
Category 8:  Shapechanger (brutal/stubborn)
Category 9:  Animal (solitary)
Category 10:  Animal (pack)
Category 11:  Ooze

I'm probably oversimplifying things, since I know nothing about how this actually works.  My point is that whatever the categories are, they don't have to match up with a creature's Type.  Just a description of how you'd expect it to behave.

Edit: What kenpen said too :)
Maybe the categories should be more along the lines of the way they react, like...

Picks off least visibly weak
Attacks spellcasters first
Always seeks the strongest

...etc.

Based on how they act, rather than their monster type. Undead like skeletal warriors are probably going to hack through whatever is strongest, then closest. Zombies will mindless come at whoever is nearby, not caring if it's a spellcaster or not. Vampire warriors will probably react more like skeletal warriors, and vampire rogues will sneak attack the flanks, etc.

Which is all well and good but if you categorize that way you end up multiplying things exponentially, and potentially causing gridlock while the AI tries to figure out if it's a smart undead that should attack the scariest looking guy, or a Dumb Undead that will attack whatever is close.

Roughly put, it works something like a truth table.  Truth Tables start easy, then just explode into complexity.  If you try and give the AI that many options you'll probably end up causing Denmark to Explode when the server goes super critical trying to make it all work.

There are more meta gamish options that good computer guys can make the AI do, but do you really want to face a monster THAT smart?


~Rex

Any well written software should be able to do that with ease - NWN's not one of those, though. Anyway.. - Imo the main problem with AIs etc is that it's just not essential when considering winning a PvM battle. Because of the huge, huge delay in the responses of the AI we already can hack things ~2 harder than we should be able to beat just cuz they lag.

Lag's the problem, not AI. ..Going little off topic, but anyway.

ethinos

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2008, 04:46:35 PM »
But lag isn't always a problem, and when it isn't, it's smear the lowbie/weakling. When you see EVERY aggro monster blitz past the tanks and smear the weaker guy, something is wrong and needs a bit of fixing.

However, I myself like intelligent foes. Keeps you on your toes and keeps you guessing.
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Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2008, 05:52:58 PM »
Don't forget that Lag issue can be a two edged sword.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2008, 06:58:16 PM »
Maybe the categories should be more along the lines of the way they react, like...

Picks off least visibly weak
Attacks spellcasters first
Always seeks the strongest

...etc.

Based on how they act, rather than their monster type. Undead like skeletal warriors are probably going to hack through whatever is strongest, then closest. Zombies will mindless come at whoever is nearby, not caring if it's a spellcaster or not. Vampire warriors will probably react more like skeletal warriors, and vampire rogues will sneak attack the flanks, etc.

Yeah.


Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2008, 07:46:36 PM »
Maybe the categories should be more along the lines of the way they react, like...

Picks off least visibly weak
Attacks spellcasters first
Always seeks the strongest

...etc.

Based on how they act, rather than their monster type. Undead like skeletal warriors are probably going to hack through whatever is strongest, then closest. Zombies will mindless come at whoever is nearby, not caring if it's a spellcaster or not. Vampire warriors will probably react more like skeletal warriors, and vampire rogues will sneak attack the flanks, etc.

Yeah.

Alright, I'll try and phrase the issue again. 

Picks off Visibly Weak.  What are you using to determine this.  A Level Check, an AC check, a Hitpoint Check?

Attacks Spell Casters First.  Go with that I can already see the fallout thread, even though that is a logical choice for some monsters, Others, gearing on that charging automatically into Acid Sheath instead of pulling bows and such, well, Problems abound.

Always seeks the strongest.  Define Strongest.  What parameters.  AC, Hitpoints, AB, Insta leathel spells?

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kenpen

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2008, 02:36:53 AM »
An monster of human intelligence picking off the weak - who has better armor (leather, vs plate)... not AC, since that's hard to tell usually. Also, who has less constitution (examine function already gives you clues about that), and who is hurt (HP).
Less than human intelligence - who is hurt? Are they small, or big (this may be where being a half-ling sucks)
Spellcasters get harder since (and I don't think I'm saying this) most PCs end up attacking people based partially on OOC information on what spells they can throw or what they're named. Maybe clearly visible things like, who's carrying the glowing staff, or who's glowing like a cruiseliner.

Mainly, it would be nice if the monsters just didn't charge through me while I am beating the shit out of it, just to try to attack my weak friends, leaving me to hack the snot out of it. This may have been implemented to prevent lowbies traveling w/ highbies for the XP, but it doesn't work - people just alter their tactics, and I still beat the crap out of things. It's just a LOT more irritating. :-P

Helaman

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2008, 02:40:41 AM »
At least Yoshinaka has the opportunity to do even MORE damage as he spawns repeated sneak attacks.

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2008, 08:41:19 AM »
I don't think having lowbies run around in circles to give the higher levels free AoOs is a real strategy.  Adventures are a lot more interesting when everyone has their roles (tanking, flanking, dispelling, etc.)

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2008, 06:19:50 PM »
An monster of human intelligence picking off the weak - who has better armor (leather, vs plate)... not AC, since that's hard to tell usually. Also, who has less constitution (examine function already gives you clues about that), and who is hurt (HP).
Less than human intelligence - who is hurt? Are they small, or big (this may be where being a half-ling sucks)
Spellcasters get harder since (and I don't think I'm saying this) most PCs end up attacking people based partially on OOC information on what spells they can throw or what they're named. Maybe clearly visible things like, who's carrying the glowing staff, or who's glowing like a cruiseliner.

Mainly, it would be nice if the monsters just didn't charge through me while I am beating the shit out of it, just to try to attack my weak friends, leaving me to hack the snot out of it. This may have been implemented to prevent lowbies traveling w/ highbies for the XP, but it doesn't work - people just alter their tactics, and I still beat the crap out of things. It's just a LOT more irritating. :-P

Right and here we go repeating.  If you gear the AI to Key off of Armor Type, does it charge the AC 25 Fighter in Plate and Tower Shield, while Ignoring the AC 39 Rogue in Studded Leather?  Types are not indictive of threat.  Rusty Plate for example.

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archonzero

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2008, 01:39:21 AM »
  While I do agree the AI should be tweaked for more threat assessment and take precedence for immediate threats versus lesser threats.  The only thing I felt that was a touch wrong with the AI's target acquisition and response.  I've a low level arcane character which I opted to pick a pet that has more melee combat features naturally to protect the character better, I use my arcane abilities to augment said creature as well.

  So.. if I stand stationary and remain a non-threat (ie don't attack or cast vs monster) they ignore me, the moment I begin to cast a spell, suddenly I've become public enemy #1.  Now the only thing I see wrong with this, is that by the time the spell casting is finished the creature has pretty much covered the ground to strike me, which A forces me to interrupt and run, or B hope my concentration level holds to make the spell and the spawn misses it's attack. 

  Now while this isn't necessarily a -BAD- thing I find it a touch unrealistic.  How and why would the creature instantly know I'm casting at it until the spell effect has gone off and dmg has been inflicted?  Premonition?  Now perhaps this has more to do with the way an attack registers with the NWN combat engine, as I'm capable of slinging a stone or firing a crossbow bolt much faster and hit or miss the target.  Though the creature does turn aggressively to charge me in the process of firing. 

  Either way I'm forced to hold and shoot or run and let my familiar/guardian chase the creature and hopefully kill it with an attack of opportunity. 

  I don't see the AC issue much of a big thing, though having read the post and replies somewhat I can find agreeable points to how it can seem silly in it's AC selection method.  Just thought I'd share my observations on the AI concerning low level/low AC characters, I just hope my feedback isn't seen in a negative manner and is constructive to tweaking or such.  :)


-Note-  My observations could have been the result of server side lag on my client.  Not entirely sure just yet.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 05:28:44 AM by archonzero »

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engelfire

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2008, 02:04:38 AM »
for me it always happens as follows

if theres a group of monsters attacking lets say few melee people. i stand far, monsters dont pay me any attention, similar to what archonzero mentioned. also if i for example shoot firebrand to that group of monsters majority of them attacks me, but only after the damage has occurred. when i cast they dont pay me any attention.

ive noticed that when the group of baddies fghts in melee with others, and i target a single monster affecting spell, like lets say magic missile to that monster who the fighter is having melee with ( facing the monster ), rest of the monsters stay in the brawl, and dont attack me at all becouse i didnt provoke them.

so i usually target my single target spells at the monster the melee'r is facing to avoid getting over run by horde :D


hope that made any sense to anyone ehehe
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Kendaric

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2008, 12:05:30 PM »
Category 1:  Undead (mindless)
Category 2:  Undead (intelligent)
Category 3:  Spider (regular)
Category 4:  Spider (tricky)
Category 5:  Humanoid/giant (dumb)
Category 6:  Humanoid/giant (smrt)
Category 7:  Shapechanger (sneaky/stalking)
Category 8:  Shapechanger (brutal/stubborn)
Category 9:  Animal (solitary)
Category 10:  Animal (pack)
Category 11:  Ooze

I'm probably oversimplifying things, since I know nothing about how this actually works.  My point is that whatever the categories are, they don't have to match up with a creature's Type.  Just a description of how you'd expect it to behave.

Edit: What kenpen said too :)

You wouldn't need that many categories... a possible approach might be:

Category 1: Mindless (includes mindless undead like skeletons & zombies as well as insects, spiders & oozes) -> Always goes for the nearest target irrespective of strength/threat
Category 2: Animal (includes most normal & dire animals with the exception of insects/spiders) -> Goes for the weakest possible target, can be distracted when easier prey is noticed (which is pretty realistic in case of animals)
Category 3: Intelligent (includes highly intelligent animals (e.g. Worgs), intelligent undead and nearly all humanoids) -> Goes for the greatest perceived threat

That should (at least in theory) suffice to simulate natural behavior for most creatures. An addition for pack hunters (e.g. wolves) would certainly be useful, not sure whether something like that would be feasible though.

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2008, 01:55:19 PM »
Right but now you need to figure out how to get the AI to recognize this thing is mindless and should act that way, or this thing is a genius and should act the other way.  I suppose you could have it check Intelligence but I can see that getting insanely messy.

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Kendaric

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2008, 04:59:46 PM »
Right but now you need to figure out how to get the AI to recognize this thing is mindless and should act that way, or this thing is a genius and should act the other way.  I suppose you could have it check Intelligence but I can see that getting insanely messy.

~Rex


It could be possible by setting variables on the various creatures in the toolset, but I'm not exactly knowledgeable when it comes to scripting so that may very well be impossible to accomplish. I guess it boils down to how the AI is set up *shrugs*

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2008, 06:02:49 PM »
Right but now you need to figure out how to get the AI to recognize this thing is mindless and should act that way, or this thing is a genius and should act the other way.  I suppose you could have it check Intelligence but I can see that getting insanely messy.

~Rex


It could be possible by setting variables on the various creatures in the toolset, but I'm not exactly knowledgeable when it comes to scripting so that may very well be impossible to accomplish. I guess it boils down to how the AI is set up *shrugs*

That depends on the scripter as well.  I've seen some that can meta game the hel out of a creature AI.  Up to and including having the monsters Loot you if they kill you.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2008, 04:47:11 PM »
A suggestion:

I don't think an entire room of enemies (15-25 enemies) should all target the same person, no matter how easy of a target that person looks like.  I don't think they ever did this with NWN's base AI, and it made more sense.  There are only a few times when everybody, even in a human coordinated PC party, all attack the same target, and that's maybe on a boss fight or an "attack all of this specific monster first", which isn't actually all on the same target anyway.  So everyone in a coordinated party, thinking ahead, rarely all latch on to the same target.

So I'm wondering why when a room of uncoordinated vampires gets attacked by people (and the vampires don't even know ahead of time what they're going to be facing), the vampires all choose to pick the same target.  They do this even when it means that their swarm is so big that there's a circle around the target 2-3 vampires thick, and the guys in the back can't even reach.


Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2008, 11:02:33 PM »
A suggestion:

I don't think an entire room of enemies (15-25 enemies) should all target the same person, no matter how easy of a target that person looks like.  I don't think they ever did this with NWN's base AI, and it made more sense.  There are only a few times when everybody, even in a human coordinated PC party, all attack the same target, and that's maybe on a boss fight or an "attack all of this specific monster first", which isn't actually all on the same target anyway.  So everyone in a coordinated party, thinking ahead, rarely all latch on to the same target.

So I'm wondering why when a room of uncoordinated vampires gets attacked by people (and the vampires don't even know ahead of time what they're going to be facing), the vampires all choose to pick the same target.  They do this even when it means that their swarm is so big that there's a circle around the target 2-3 vampires thick, and the guys in the back can't even reach.

I think, it's just the new AI.

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