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Author Topic: AI Vs. Low Levels  (Read 10835 times)

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2008, 06:27:32 PM »
Yeah. In the Ice Palace, the bleakborns and everything else kept swarming past us to get to a character that wasn't doing anything. Never attacked, never casted a spell. They went after him, even when he was a REALLY good distance away.

Players run through anything to hack at the wizards, and that's cool. But it's kinda silly for monsters to run after characters that never made an attack or casted a spell, while we're chasing them down and hacking at their backs. That behavior seems to have a certain disregard for basic survival. :)

While not the biggest fan of people dragging folks 10 plus levels lower then themselves on Major dungeon crawls.  I will say, it's a rather bad AI choice to have the monsters charge the thing that isn't a threat.  The AI should gear on the threat instead of the Bait, if it's a smart AI.

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ethinos

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2008, 06:29:57 PM »
I was in the Burial Grounds and noticed the same thing. While attacking the mage was very smart, they'd often do it without her casting anything in their field of vision. I had to use a lot of Knockdown in hopes of maintaining my role as a tank. Maybe give the enemies a % chance of geeking the mage first, and going down if they are behind a wall of fighters.
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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2008, 06:32:03 PM »
The idea of the AI used to discourage people from bunnying lowbies through dungeons is great, expect it doesn't work in this case.  If you want to bunny a lowbie, all you have to do is give them invisibility.

And besides, since our server has an awesome rating with a factor related to not having level-restrictions for partying, we shouldn't need this kind of implimentation.  Low levels like to get in on action, even if they're doing minor damage from a distance with bows.  Most lowbies hate sitting around watching the action.

ethinos

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2008, 06:37:40 PM »
The idea of the AI used to discourage people from bunnying lowbies through dungeons is great, expect it doesn't work in this case.  If you want to bunny a lowbie, all you have to do is give them invisibility.

Do you really think the AI was designed for this? It seems to me it was simply to give the enemies a realistic goal of attacking the weakest character. Unfortunately, for us, that does often implicate that the lowbie is going to get creamed if they join a higher leveled group.

However, if you have a line of tanks, I don't think every enemy should attempt to blitz the defense line to sack the lowbie. One, two, maybe. But not the whole offensive line.
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Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2008, 06:41:30 PM »
The idea of the AI used to discourage people from bunnying lowbies through dungeons is great, expect it doesn't work in this case.  If you want to bunny a lowbie, all you have to do is give them invisibility.

And besides, since our server has an awesome rating with a factor related to not having level-restrictions for partying, we shouldn't need this kind of implimentation.  Low levels like to get in on action, even if they're doing minor damage from a distance with bows.  Most lowbies hate sitting around watching the action.

I would say Half, with the other half being power leveled happily by their sugar daddy ooc friends.  I do EXPECT, certain types of monsters to go for the EASY kill first.  That's basic predator instinct.  But smart Monsters, should go for the threats first and save the lowbies for desert.

Some of this attack stuff though is quite simply due to the fact that many Higher level people, especially the dedicated casters, have no clue how to keep a party alive, since they are to busy grandstanding under the center spotlight to pay attention to their group.

Rez's are less "effort" apparently, then an In Scene Rescue.  I know I'm not the only one that's muttered the words "Worst Cleric/Magic User EVER."

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ethinos

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2008, 06:50:00 PM »
In an attempt at being constructive, what I've gathered is that the AI is set up to go after the "weaker" persons. They go about this by using a combination of AC and HPs. How about using different criteria that is less level based.

For example, all these can indicate a weaker person without having a bias towards levels.

Lower AC (Why charge the full plate knight when you can kill the leather bikini elf?)

Smaller Phenotype (Everyone picks on those smaller than them.)

Weaker CON score (Hey, you look sickly. I'd try and push the less than hale and hearty folks over first too.)

Weaker STR score (Scrawny folks always get pushed around.)

Injured folks (Not hps specific, but heavily injured folks are easy pickings.)

Maybe have all these factor in? HPs is really a vague concept in terms of trying to rationalize it as being a consideration I think.
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Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2008, 09:34:59 PM »
Right like I said pile on the weak is basic predator instinct.  But a Smart Monster, would not leave his backside exposed to the Uber sneak threat or the Tank threat.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2008, 10:05:35 PM »
I was in the Burial Grounds and noticed the same thing. While attacking the mage was very smart, they'd often do it without her casting anything in their field of vision. I had to use a lot of Knockdown in hopes of maintaining my role as a tank. Maybe give the enemies a % chance of geeking the mage first, and going down if they are behind a wall of fighters.

And then she died. :P

Anyway, the AI feels stupid.  What I think should be happening, is when you're out in a large group travelling and werewolves are on the prowl, I would imagine they, as appropriate predators, would try and maul the weakest one first.  I'll restate: if fairly unintelligent monsters are going in for a kill on initial contact, I would imagine they would go for the easiest target first.  However, if you're in the middle of a battle and people are duking it out left and right with monsters, I would find it hard to believe that the monsters would take the time to switch targets.  That's what strange, the switching.  Even players don't do a lot of switching between targets in battle.  Usually if you're one on one with someone, unless something drastic happens, you're still one on one with that person.  If you're fighting someone strong and you're barely getting by, chances are you aren't going to stop and chase down the archer trying to hide in the corner, and neither would a monster or even an intelligent being.

I think the AI should be changed to be based more on the initial encounter, rather than target evaluation during the heat of the battle.  In any one on one situation, targets should remain fairly static.  If it's one fighter on a swarm of werewolves and a caster blows a firebrand at them, I think a switch of target is appropriate, but not if the battle is one-to-one.

Also, what about enemies fleeing?  Why don't they?

Oozes: Shouldn't they always go towards what is closest?

[edit]Also worthy of note, what about the arrogance of the enemy?  A lot of monsters would like to be the alpha male and prove that they can take on the hardest target rather than the easiest.  To do any less would be a bit of a shame, but then again it depends on the diabolicalness of the monster at hand.  Are they willing to fight dirty?  Do they fight for status?[/edit]
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 10:08:23 PM by Bad_Bud »

Unana / Rapsutin

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2008, 10:17:35 PM »
Quote
Oozes: Shouldn't they always go towards what is closest?

Agreed. Same with zombies and other mindless undead.

failed.bard

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2008, 10:46:33 PM »
Wolves and werewolves will break off combat to chase after mink and bats.

Really, it should be:

Threat level
Proximity
Wounded status
With a special note that, since all damage shields are visible and reasonably short duration, they should be a lower priority.

That's the only things PCs worry about.  Unless you have great cleave, or the low HP monsters are doing sreious damage still, you ignore them to get rid of the more dangerous enemies first.  The AI should never break off an attack with someone killing it, to charge after someone that can't hurt it.  That kind of intellect would have gotten it killed off long before the PCs got there.

Bad_Bud

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2008, 11:06:43 PM »
I don't think there should be any single list of the priority in which the AI should target players.

It should be based on different types of creatures and subsets from that.

penny

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2008, 11:45:46 PM »
Some of this attack stuff though is quite simply due to the fact that many Higher level people, especially the dedicated casters, have no clue how to keep a party alive, since they are to busy grandstanding under the center spotlight to pay attention to their group.

Do you make this stuff up? I've been around more than a few high level casters and never seen any of them act like this.
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Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2008, 12:05:43 AM »
I don't think there should be any single list of the priority in which the AI should target players.

It should be based on different types of creatures and subsets from that.

Don't forget there are only so many things you can tell the AI to consider, that don't border on meta issues.  Hence, why it tends to key off of weak vs strong, HP and AC levels and stuff like that.  The Term Blink Dog AI comes from way back in the beginning, because the Blink Dogs, would auto port to the weakest people in the group, and start chewing on them.

I suppose you could set the AI up to Check Level, Check Class, and give it it's instructions then, but that still doesn't solve the issue of getting it to go after threats instead of tag alongs.

A lot work goes into the various AI set ups, and it seems easy to get the critters to do one thing or the other but almost never both.  Only so much room in it's little pea brain, but it would be nice if it could be tweaked a touch so that you don't run into stuff like the ADHD werewolf that's distracted in the middle of a fight to chase after a Mink (Even though that predatory lock on has probably saved many a newbie).

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2008, 12:14:31 AM »
No, penny, he doesn't.

Its gotten better, somewhat, but for the most part clerics and mages buff themsleves, then either polymoprh and Acid Sheath, or just go in flinging death spells at random.

I've seen it too many times while I sit back and stare with my fighter types.
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penny

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2008, 12:22:13 AM »
Well I must be tagging along with all the right people, then. :D
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ethinos

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2008, 12:35:33 AM »
I suppose you could set the AI up to Check Level, Check Class, and give it it's instructions then, but that still doesn't solve the issue of getting it to go after threats instead of tag alongs.

Take a look at my list of what I consider reasonable considerations. You'll notice none of them really takes into account a person's level and could provide a solution to the "pasted lowbie" phenomenon.
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Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2008, 12:38:29 AM »
No, penny, he doesn't.

Its gotten better, somewhat, but for the most part clerics and mages buff themsleves, then either polymoprh and Acid Sheath, or just go in flinging death spells at random.

I've seen it too many times while I sit back and stare with my fighter types.

Seen worse actually.  :D  Always get a good laugh out of it when they DO get hit, and then run screaming for the hills leaving you to face whatever they trained into you to try and scrape off their hide.

As for Ethinos's considerations, Yeah some of them would be interesting if they could work.  Often though AI does stupid things.  If for example you set up a Smart AI to not gear on Lowbie cannon fodder that shouldn't really BE there in the first place, it should therefore be smart enough, not to charge Mr. Acid Sheathe right?  Eventually though you HAVE to give the AI something easy for it to work with like AC or Hitpoints otherwise you end up with a confused brainlocked monster that sits there and gibbers.

~Rex


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ethinos

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2008, 12:41:14 AM »
As for Mr. Acid Sheath, I'd love to see more humanoids resorting to ranged combat in that situation. Arrows, axes, darts. If the average PC has both a melee and ranged weapon, I'd think the more humanoid NPC's would too.
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kenpen

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2008, 02:37:08 AM »
As for Mr. Acid Sheath, I'd love to see more humanoids resorting to ranged combat in that situation. Arrows, axes, darts. If the average PC has both a melee and ranged weapon, I'd think the more humanoid NPC's would too.

It would be nice if more NPCs monsters had ranged weapons. As it is, there's like... the skeletal archers. And that's about it. Oh, Shades. In most cases, wouldn't matter, since any good mage also will have up a ghostly/ethereal (and most missile weapons problably wouldn't be +1, and if they were - I'd like to see them drop on death :P ). But, yah... some ranged fighters would be good.

And, the fleeing to regroup would be good too. Very few creatures do it. The shades will sort-of flee, and then start dosing themselves with the 309228347 healing potions they seem to carry (and, again, do not drop :-P)

We did Ghakis earlier, and the AIs were pretty retarded. Again, seeking the weakest members pretty much... which we turned to our advantage, by having the weaker people run around me in a circle while attack-of-opportunitied everything to death. Worked out pretty well. :)

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2008, 03:58:10 AM »
to be honest sometimes its necessary for mage o go around in acid sheats while in party becouse sometimes thats the only thing keeping the party alive becouse they all get cocky in large numbers and want to tackle insane hard dungeon.

from my own experience as i play mostly mage characters, most of the time i buff people, but yet some reason they still manage to fail and get themself killed m'kay. then im forced to ram through monsters with acid sheath and grab the corpse(s). i dont even bother wasting attack spells becouse i need to empty my whole selection of spells on few monsters to get em down, and shooting em with crossbow is just plain stupid becouse i wont hit anything with my crappy AB


so for me, it depends in what dungeon i am with party. i have got my share of fingerpointing and childish accusations when the entire party had been wiped out even if i gave them all the buffs i could cast....besides every buff i cast to party is away from possible attack spells, so in the end all i got left is acid sheath
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kenpen

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2008, 04:02:31 AM »
Acid sheath rocks for mages. It's a god-send when you get rammed by the AI seeking out the lower AC. It works even better when you're trollformed with ghostly visage, or zombie-formed with ethereal visage. :) Sometimes, I go naked just so things will actually hit me, and kill themselves on me. This has resulted in many an amusing scene, when the skins wear off, and I am left standing there with my pecker out...

Bad_Bud

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2008, 01:38:14 PM »
I don't think there should be any single list of the priority in which the AI should target players.

It should be based on different types of creatures and subsets from that.

Don't forget there are only so many things you can tell the AI to consider, that don't border on meta issues.  Hence, why it tends to key off of weak vs strong, HP and AC levels and stuff like that.  The Term Blink Dog AI comes from way back in the beginning, because the Blink Dogs, would auto port to the weakest people in the group, and start chewing on them.

I suppose you could set the AI up to Check Level, Check Class, and give it it's instructions then, but that still doesn't solve the issue of getting it to go after threats instead of tag alongs.

A lot work goes into the various AI set ups, and it seems easy to get the critters to do one thing or the other but almost never both.  Only so much room in it's little pea brain, but it would be nice if it could be tweaked a touch so that you don't run into stuff like the ADHD werewolf that's distracted in the middle of a fight to chase after a Mink (Even though that predatory lock on has probably saved many a newbie).

~Rex




. . .

I'm talking about manually putting monsters in catagories and setting priorities for each catagory on who to target.

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2008, 01:40:56 PM »
I don't think there should be any single list of the priority in which the AI should target players.

It should be based on different types of creatures and subsets from that.

Don't forget there are only so many things you can tell the AI to consider, that don't border on meta issues.  Hence, why it tends to key off of weak vs strong, HP and AC levels and stuff like that.  The Term Blink Dog AI comes from way back in the beginning, because the Blink Dogs, would auto port to the weakest people in the group, and start chewing on them.

I suppose you could set the AI up to Check Level, Check Class, and give it it's instructions then, but that still doesn't solve the issue of getting it to go after threats instead of tag alongs.

A lot work goes into the various AI set ups, and it seems easy to get the critters to do one thing or the other but almost never both.  Only so much room in it's little pea brain, but it would be nice if it could be tweaked a touch so that you don't run into stuff like the ADHD werewolf that's distracted in the middle of a fight to chase after a Mink (Even though that predatory lock on has probably saved many a newbie).

~Rex




. . .

I'm talking about manually putting monsters in catagories and setting priorities for each catagory on who to target.

Don't think that would work considering the sheer number of categories. and the differences between types of monsters Within that category.

~Rex
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Bad_Bud

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2008, 01:51:12 PM »
If there were differences, they would be in a different catagory, Rex.

Rex

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Re: AI Vs. Low Levels
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2008, 03:51:46 PM »
If there were differences, they would be in a different catagory, Rex.

Category Undead.  Zombie.  Mindless.  Category Undead.  Vampire.  Genius. 

Different, yet same category. 

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