Author Topic: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?  (Read 15262 times)

DM Shadowspawn

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2008, 12:05:17 PM »
there is no new gilder being created at this time?
Who says that everyone needs to be a guilder? Who says that everyone should have availability to a weapon which is better then a base weapon? It's lighter and does more damage, and when gilded affects lycanthropes. As a matter of balance, these weapons should not be easy to get or afford.

The only characters able to gild were the ones created when buffs could be used and they would find themselves hard press to do the same again without the buffs.
That's your opinion. Can you say they wouldn't have gone through the effort without the buffs? They became master smiths with 40+ ranks in smithing. They took the time to get there. Why would they find it unrewardng when they had already found the smithing system as is rewarding enough to put 6 months of time in to get that much experience? It would simply be a new system to strive to master. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes, such as olympic athletes. Others do not. Not everyone has what it takes, nor should they.

You get to level one off your first failure.  Wilhelm has 3 from int, and one from con, so +4 base, and +1 for gild 1.  The 20 will get rid of the -5, and then he only needs a 15 to succeed.  Even at that, law of averages and all, that's still 20 attempt, and it cost him a little over 300 for the materials.  6k isn't bad, but for the people that are master smiths, but have +3 or less, they won't bother even trying.

If an auto fail means a person gets their first rank in the craft then all they require is +3 in stats to have a 5% chance to succeed. 1 for the d20, 1 for the 1st rank, and +3 in stats = success on a 20. I've seen people win fights with monsters with those odds. Some people just get lucky. Also since the DC stays at 20 without changing for any items, the system will always get easier.

Why bother?   
Isn't personal choice a wonderful thing? I say that if people do not believe there is enough reward in doing it, then don't do it and quit complaining. Others have worked through a more costly and harder crafting system. One with no reward for failure and less CXP per item crafted. If you find it unrewarding I ask you why are you doing it then? Crafting is not for everyone and personal choice allows you to not do it.

Think of this. How many smiths would support a small town? Two, maybe three depending on the size of the town. For our server how many smiths are there? How many gilders are there? What is the population of players and how frequently do they require new steel or gilded weapons? Weapons never break down so unless they get swarmed by oozes, the item is lost in PVP, or a DM takes them in an event where the item is destroyed. It's extremely rare occurrence.

I am not for revamping the system. I like the idea of craft skills being hard to master. For the right build, guilding can be mastered in a short time.
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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2008, 12:16:38 PM »
I wonder why you are so hard press in saying no to any kind of middle ground. People are obviously having an issue and telling them to deal with it has never made anyone happy, never.

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DM Shadowspawn

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2008, 12:44:06 PM »
I wonder why you are so hard press in saying no to any kind of middle ground. People are obviously having an issue and telling them to deal with it has never made anyone happy, never.
For the record I do speak from experience as do Badbelly and Ethinos. We have been there and done it, and since you have decided to speak to me specifically, I would ask have you? To answer, your PC's aren't smiths nor are they gilder's. You speak from a point of second hand on behalf of a group of people whom are experiencing challenges with the system. I appreciate the challenges they are facing. I have been there and done it. It's a challenge. But it is not insurmountable.

I and others whom have worked through the system believe crafting should not be easy, it's not for everyone, nor should it be. People do not need to become masters overnight for this would cause imbalance. You state your opinion of doom and gloom for some illustrious "people" for the craft while I state one of moderation and the possible for other "people". Glass half empty vs half full.

Is the system perfect? No. Is the system impossible as you make it out to be? No. Is it a challenge as it would be in real life. Yes. Do some people enjoy working against the challenge. Yes.

dutchy

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2008, 12:54:06 PM »
compensation doesnt kill anyone. i side with nef, she might not be a crafter, but you need to be a  high lvl to gild (to get proper stats) nobody makes just a char for crafting and gilding as youl run out of cash and materials must be harvested, and you cannot harvest without proper lvls to beat the spawns.

i agree it shouldnt be easy, but compansating a bit wouldnt hurt anyone iether.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2008, 12:56:56 PM »
Here's the problem in a nutshell:  What happens when that gilder or bowmaker or weaponsmith goes on hiatus as has happened numerous times?  What happens then? 

No one is saying go to extremes. What people are saying is they want a middle ground.  Sorry, but I don't see the problem with that. 
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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2008, 01:15:37 PM »
actually Shadowspawn, Nef has tried smithing, Roland was at it when Samuel started

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2008, 01:19:36 PM »
But where is the middle ground? Some want the game even more hardcore, some even less. Who's to say we aren't at middle ground already? I hear a few people speaking as if it was behalf of the majority of the server - but doing a quick count, I hear as many, if not more, saying it's not an issue. It doesn't really make me worry that it's us lacking the perspective. The system is still in development, but I don't feel there's any reason to panic over balance just yet.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2008, 01:41:20 PM »
This isn't panic ........... this is conversation.  Italian-Americans understand that instinctively.   ;)
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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2008, 01:43:36 PM »
Roland is lvl 22 smith, i know what im talking about. Roland will never be able to gild, ever. I laugh at the mere thought.

Im against people making power build just so they can choose a craft, not saying anyone did but that's what the new system aims for. Mix maxing their stats so they'll have a slightly better chance at being a crafter without wasting hours clicking on the damn anvil, im sorry yes it's boring and no i dont HAVE to do it, but i do want to do it and i dont think it needs to be as tedious as it is, we're supposed to enjoy this game, right? I think the system needs something to add on to it.

We suggested in game training either by PC or NPC, which could give the new crafter some type of bonus, or to adapt the backgrounds so the PC will start off with a beginner's  bonus due to their background. What's wrong with those suggestions?

FYI the majority of people saying "it's fine" already have their levels, so their opinion is somewhat biased. From experience, there is no new gilder around, none. All the smith PCs gave up a while ago.

This isnt panic Soren, this is feedback.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2008, 01:45:34 PM »
Saying that there's no reason to bother gilding, that it's impossible to do and there's no one doing it is very close to inciting to panic...

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2008, 01:48:31 PM »
Saying that there's no reason to bother gilding, that it's impossible to do and there's no one doing it is very close to inciting to panic...

Lock the thread, you have the yay, you have the nhay. All we're doing atm is arguying the same points over and over again. The ball is in your camp.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2008, 02:00:11 PM »
Regarding providing the funds that a character might need to pursue gilding, that could be some fun.  The Church of Ezra for example if approached or if they see someone who they deem to be an honest worker, someone they would like to see succeed, the might want to invest in that person's career, help pay for their training in the craft.

Real churches do that.  The principal at the Catholic High School I worked for in Samoa, had her entire college, both undergraduate and her master's program, paid in full.  That involved flying her across the Pacific to the West Coast in the U.S., and that isn't a cheap ride when you add it all up for tuition, airfair over the years, and living costs.

Nell, if a laymen of the Church was known to desire to become educated in a trade, she would work towards offering that character church grants.  There might be some strings attached, or not.

So some crafts and trades will be expensive, especially in the beginning, just like it is in reality.  That 'realism' aspect though is a positive force in conflict and story development.  It makes our characters and the factions more dependent upon team work and less solo based.


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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2008, 03:00:27 PM »
no soren were not on the middle ground, this is a hardcore server, go anywhere else and 80% of the systems are easyer then it is in potm, and this isnt panicking this is discussing and asking for a little slack on the gilding system.

and making a char pure for crafting is kind of limeting one's role play experience by force in my eyes, a crafter char could never go on hunts effectively, all they can do is maybe mine a little not to adventerus wich i think for most is not that exciting, they wont see any dm quests they wont havy any good stories, all in all pure crafter charecters would be boring.
i also think that alot on this server stick to a few chars like 3 max or so and pour alot of time and effort into them so making a boring crafter only char wont be much of an option.


now soren i ask you try our boots and sit where we are and give us a review about all this, instead as your position as TEH soren.

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DM Shadowspawn

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2008, 03:33:18 PM »
Some feedback and a suggestion which many will appreciate. For the record my belief is the -5 should be -4 to start for all crafts including gilding.

Stats required for each:
Smelting: STR CON
Smithing: STR DEX
Gilding:    CON INT

Reasoning, it means a person must be 14 for all stats if they are to be a Smelter/Smith/Gilder. I speak of all three as they are interrelated. Smelting of ore to smith. Require min 30 ranks in Smithing to Gild. A person should not have to be the perfect well rounded 14 stat char in 5 stats to have a chance at success. Some people are not naturals or naturally gifted at performing a task, but go on to master it. More so then the supposed natural/gifted person since it came with extra effort to achieve it.

My belief that for all crafts it would aid in minimizing much of the noise around the difficulty in starting, still make it a challenge while excluding those with no stat preference what so ever towards the craft, while allowing those whom have some stats but say only +3 between the two stats not to be excluded.

The other alternative is to remove the -5 for first learning and slow down the amount of CXP per success. My preference is for the prior example though with the -4 to first learn a template.



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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2008, 03:42:27 PM »
 :think: ... I feel a bit like hitting a brick wall here.

I think we have a good example of a gilder that doesn't have to have the entire character centred around it and even pose a nice roleplay story and interaction. Not every smith would fit as a gilder, but you don't have to design your character exactly to be a gilder either. At some point, even, there'll be other options of specialization within the smith trade, and those will other stats would get an advantage there.

Now, concerning the panic, my point was exactly that it isn't just the large crowd of players with the developers on the other side ignoring them - but that we already are at a point where, within our excellent community, there's people on both sides. Claiming otherwise is, in my humble opinion, unneeded dramatizing and inciting to panic. We could of course, simply lock the topic, but I much prefer to kindly encourage people to mind the constructivism of their argumentation... :)

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2008, 05:50:15 PM »
Roland is lvl 22 smith, i know what im talking about. Roland will never be able to gild, ever. I laugh at the mere thought.

Gilding isn't for everyone, nor should it be. As it is, its way too easy to learn all the crafts, which I think is very unrealistic.

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Im against people making power build just so they can choose a craft, not saying anyone did but that's what the new system aims for. Mix maxing their stats so they'll have a slightly better chance at being a crafter without wasting hours clicking on the damn anvil, im sorry yes it's boring and no i dont HAVE to do it, but i do want to do it and i dont think it needs to be as tedious as it is, we're supposed to enjoy this game, right? I think the system needs something to add on to it.

Nef, I'm pretty sure that you "power build" and "min/max" your stats on all your characters already. (And I'm not trying to say anything is wrong with this.) What is stopping you from setting up a characters stats to become a gilder as well? Heck, if you put in a 14 in CON and STR to start with (which is common anyways) and start with a 12 INT, just put the level 4 and 8 bonus points in INT and voila, by that time you'll likely be ready to start gilding. It's funny though, since Torgan isn't min/maxed and has the stats to master all the smith skills. He was created long before I even knew about crafting. And his available "buff" has only ever been Rage, which doesn't effect all the required stats and honestly lasts only a few moments. So, for the most part, I've only had part-time buffs. I've went into woodworking and leatherworking too, and Rage is near useless there. The only reason I haven't mastered those two yet is because I got bored... :oops:

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We suggested in game training either by PC or NPC, which could give the new crafter some type of bonus, or to adapt the backgrounds so the PC will start off with a beginner's  bonus due to their background. What's wrong with those suggestions?

I'd love this, but only because I'd want it to be even harder to try and do the craft solo otherwise. But no one seems to like forced RP to get through skills, so I'll just stay quiet on the subject.

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FYI the majority of people saying "it's fine" already have their levels, so their opinion is somewhat biased. From experience, there is no new gilder around, none. All the smith PCs gave up a while ago.

PC smiths give up all the time. Most give up way before they can even gild anyways. Staying the course requires a person with a lot of patience and determination. The crafts shouldn't be changed because some folks simply aren't capable of dealing with the nature of mastering the crafts.

Here's the problem in a nutshell:  What happens when that gilder or bowmaker or weaponsmith goes on hiatus as has happened numerous times?  What happens then?

What happens is that those items become more demand than supply. Prices jump, and the items become more valuable, until a new crafter or an old one floods the market again. To me, this gives the market a certain dynamic that keeps things interesting.
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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2008, 06:03:36 PM »
Here's an anecdote, maybe a bit unrelated but it demonstrate my feelings on the server's economic system.

Back in the days Cherry n Jimmy were star Vardos, selling their items left and right, Ric bitched me out because i was selling items for too *low* price. "Oy you could have gotten 10k for that etc etc"  and i replied "The idea isnt' to force the player to farm rats for a week, meanwhile some higher level farmer can buy it ten times, the idea is to create an interaction between the merchant and the buyer." and that is what i believe in. Price inflation and deflation etc is only a natural process, i don't stock up on potions, i don't limit how many people can buy. Why? Because they'll always buy what i have and won't if i don't. It makes little difference if i sell ten today and none tomorrow. I can try and be fair, but in the end, it's the interaction that matters. The roleplay.

Here we have a crunching number system that's bothersome and terribly irritating to new players. *forcing* the ones that want to be a gilder/smith, to spend so long in their smithy that they either give up or never see the light of the day. It's easy to say they aren't forced to do it, but what if they want to? Since when the server has been about winning? It's easy to say nobody can be as awesome as xyz, but if this game is still about having fun and enjoy the roleplay, and not about farming ore and LFG SILVER MINE NEED ROUGE, well, the system should be more friendly toward all the players.

I'm done with this anyways. Like someone said, since i don't smith it's not my problem, right?

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2008, 06:09:45 PM »
I'll toss my few cents in here as i've gotten a pc thats starting to delve into the craft though not to gilding yet obvious :D

percy has the following stats atm

str 16
dex 13
con 14
int 14
wis 10
cha 8

Now his stat points will be going towards str all the way to 20 IF he gets there of course :D in either case i've worked alongside neffy here with woodworking and bow making and while wood working IS easy enough for percy he's REALLY gotta dump time and money into the bowerying part due to lack of dex and wis :) which aint a problem really it just means more time and effort on my part to get anywhere decent at it.

i've also started the smithing too non success yet despite his stats. In some ways it does come to luck on the part of the rolls. I know that my other pc florence who've i'm dumped TONS of hours into herbalism is barely beyond lvl 2 in teh craft and has ok stats for the craft yet she has failed baszillons of time likely due to just simple bad rolls its frustrating belive me heh

now my thoughts on this whole min maxing thing. I'll admit to a certain degree I DO min max a few of my pcs though its more often then not related in some fashion to a story that fits it. My feeling though is that one shouldnt have to min max there stats to get really good at a craft I'll agree here with Shadowspawns suggestions of maybe putting that -5 down to -4 least then its easier and if someone has a +2/+2 to the craft in questoin then all they need is a 20 to get by it.

I'm sure there's more i'll come up with but atm i cant think of anything else to add currently

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2008, 06:13:51 PM »
Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day. And as soon as I got to gilding, I did heavy duty, hardcore grinding on silver gilding utilizing my large bank balance to finance it.

Back then, I had two Rages, that last about 10 seconds or so. So to say that it barely influenced my crafting would be honest. I have largely done all my smithing un-buffed. Anyone that bought steel full plate probably saw Torgan getting mad at the anvil, but mostly it was to guarantee an auto-success on that specific suit of armor because wasting my thousand fangs on the template, and the characters 15+ minutes customizing the suit kind of sucks.

The point of this is that I did smithing basically unbuffed, with the current system. If I can do it, anyone with the same mentality and determination can. Nothing needs fixing. Folks just need to approach the crafts without the expectation of buffs speeding their progress along.
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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2008, 12:39:54 PM »
Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day

Do you mean 10+ in game hours, or 10+ real life hours.  It may be a silly question, but I am completely serious in asking.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #95 on: July 21, 2008, 01:50:45 PM »
10 real hours.

10 game hours is a bit quick.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #96 on: July 21, 2008, 04:46:55 PM »
What happens is that those items become more demand than supply. Prices jump, and the items become more valuable, until a new crafter or an old one floods the market again. To me, this gives the market a certain dynamic that keeps things interesting.

No what happens is that player who happens to arrive at the wrong time doesn't have access to better equipment.  Sure, they can wait for whoever to get into playing or someone new to come (maybe), but wow what a welcome. 

As this server moves more towards a player based economy, it will only work if the crafter playerbase stays ingame.  Otherwise, it doesn't work or just creates more hoops for a player to jump through.  This is game, not a competition. 
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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #97 on: July 21, 2008, 06:02:10 PM »
Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day

Do you mean 10+ in game hours, or 10+ real life hours.  It may be a silly question, but I am completely serious in asking.

Definitely real life hours. That's a lot of boredom and monotony, and is an example of the effort required to become a master smith. I did this largely unaffected by buffs, and that's why I disagree that any of the crafts need to be made easier or more accessible. (In fact, I think Herbalism needs to be made harder.) Torgan was in high demand before my hiatus, and I made a good deal of money fashioning suits of armor and crafting silver gilded weapons. But I earned that place up top.

No what happens is that player who happens to arrive at the wrong time doesn't have access to better equipment.  Sure, they can wait for whoever to get into playing or someone new to come (maybe), but wow what a welcome.

On the flip side, maybe silver gilded weapons were too easily purchased before. When I got here, no one could gild. Silver scimitars were the thing to get. Now, everyone has gilded weapons (or can purchase them from the handful of gilders present).

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As this server moves more towards a player based economy, it will only work if the crafter playerbase stays ingame.  Otherwise, it doesn't work or just creates more hoops for a player to jump through.  This is game, not a competition. 

Dorin and I are still around and willing to take orders. Just PM us.
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Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2008, 06:07:30 PM »
Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day

Do you mean 10+ in game hours, or 10+ real life hours.  It may be a silly question, but I am completely serious in asking.

Definitely real life hours. That's a lot of boredom and monotony, and is an example of the effort required to become a master smith. I did this largely unaffected by buffs, and that's why I disagree that any of the crafts need to be made easier or more accessible. (In fact, I think Herbalism needs to be made harder.) Torgan was in high demand before my hiatus, and I made a good deal of money fashioning suits of armor and crafting silver gilded weapons. But I earned that place up top.

No what happens is that player who happens to arrive at the wrong time doesn't have access to better equipment.  Sure, they can wait for whoever to get into playing or someone new to come (maybe), but wow what a welcome.

On the flip side, maybe silver gilded weapons were too easily purchased before. When I got here, no one could gild. Silver scimitars were the thing to get. Now, everyone has gilded weapons (or can purchase them from the handful of gilders present).

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As this server moves more towards a player based economy, it will only work if the crafter playerbase stays ingame.  Otherwise, it doesn't work or just creates more hoops for a player to jump through.  This is game, not a competition. 

Dorin and I are still around and willing to take orders. Just PM us.

Otto doesn't have a guilded weapon, plus, he thinks Dorin is a nancy boy in poofy underwear, and thinks Torgon needs an acid bath.  But those are just RP issues :D  Need, an Ugly, Human, Crafter that can ICly cater to all.  That's something that missing a bit from grafting in general is that whole IC thing, Lot of PM me this and that, watched full blown ooc conversations that last hours while folks twiddle around with it.

As for Guilding, It should be hard though I think it should be a seperate craft.  I have to get that proposal finished and posted I think you'll like it Ethinos.

Care Bears will hate it.  Maybe the Smurfs and the Care Cousins to.  Snorks and fraggles will think it rocks though.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2008, 09:07:51 PM »
the only thing i would really like to see changed in all honesty . . . is cold forged iron added, which i've heard in rumors is in the works. Otherwise, i t hink it is fine. Having done some smithing, leather working, and herbalism now, it does take a lot of time, patience, and resources. One ruins sooo much when learning, and it does take hours upon hours to do. Especially now that buffs don't work, but then. . .none of my chars really have any buffs. . maybe my new cleric, but otherwise no.

I mainly gave up on crafting due to the fact that if you ever need a rebuild, you loose hours of practice in a craft and then have to redo it all.  As for master smiths, i don't think there really are many of them.

I've noticed as well, that the majority of things which can be made don't equal or match the things which have vanished from the merchants of late either. The rogue armors, bows from deganway, and so on and so forth. I'm sure they are in the drops now though, as i've noticed the drops have been really nice lately. . well, if you survive to get to them.  :P

Maybe something like adamantium? Not even sure if such can be found in the core, will have to do some research.  I have found platinum, but if i recall nothing can be made with it just yet, then of course, not sure what it would be good for other than enchanting if mixed with something else as an alloy.