Author Topic: Herbalism - Too easy?  (Read 7467 times)

Lyrithean

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2008, 03:21:22 PM »
I agree that herbalism should only produce potions of healing, restoration, curatives and possibly stat buffs. And then a second branch called alchemy that would produce the potions that give arcane/divine spell affects. These would be producable only by those people capable of casting the spells, the ingredients would still be required but the mixture would be such that a caster could infuse the potion with the necessary arcane/divine affect. Could have two categories for alchemical potions, inert and activated. A herbalist could mix the ingredients together and produce a potion of see invisibility, but until they find a caster capable of imbuing the potion with the necessary magical power the potion wouldn't do anything. Kind of like templates.

Just my two cents

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2008, 03:30:39 PM »
I agree that herbalism should only produce potions of healing, restoration, curatives and possibly stat buffs. And then a second branch called alchemy that would produce the potions that give arcane/divine spell affects. These would be producable only by those people capable of casting the spells, the ingredients would still be required but the mixture would be such that a caster could infuse the potion with the necessary arcane/divine affect. Could have two categories for alchemical potions, inert and activated. A herbalist could mix the ingredients together and produce a potion of see invisibility, but until they find a caster capable of imbuing the potion with the necessary magical power the potion wouldn't do anything. Kind of like templates.

Just my two cents

i agree with this any thoughts from the  devs on this

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2008, 03:37:11 PM »
I agree that herbalism should only produce potions of healing, restoration, curatives and possibly stat buffs. And then a second branch called alchemy that would produce the potions that give arcane/divine spell affects. These would be producable only by those people capable of casting the spells, the ingredients would still be required but the mixture would be such that a caster could infuse the potion with the necessary arcane/divine affect. Could have two categories for alchemical potions, inert and activated. A herbalist could mix the ingredients together and produce a potion of see invisibility, but until they find a caster capable of imbuing the potion with the necessary magical power the potion wouldn't do anything. Kind of like templates.

Just my two cents

I say bring it on.   :mrgreen:
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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2008, 04:40:07 PM »
I agree that herbalism should only produce potions of healing, restoration, curatives and possibly stat buffs. And then a second branch called alchemy that would produce the potions that give arcane/divine spell affects. These would be producable only by those people capable of casting the spells, the ingredients would still be required but the mixture would be such that a caster could infuse the potion with the necessary arcane/divine affect. Could have two categories for alchemical potions, inert and activated. A herbalist could mix the ingredients together and produce a potion of see invisibility, but until they find a caster capable of imbuing the potion with the necessary magical power the potion wouldn't do anything. Kind of like templates.

Just my two cents

In other words, the Brew Potion feat.  Seems I brought this up oh, three Herbalisim threads ago.

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Lyrithean

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2008, 04:59:59 PM »
Well until they come up with a forum program that brings up a bright flashy pop-up indicating that such a suggestion has already posted or everyone suddenly developes photgraphic memories you'll have to forgive people for occasionally posting ideas that have already been posted

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2008, 06:04:54 PM »
Well until they come up with a forum program that brings up a bright flashy pop-up indicating that such a suggestion has already posted or everyone suddenly developes photgraphic memories you'll have to forgive people for occasionally posting ideas that have already been posted

Or you can use my method:  Just assume Rex already brought it up.   :lol:

(all in good fun   :mrgreen: )
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archonzero

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2008, 08:27:05 PM »
  I don't find Herbalism easy at all.  Then again I don't always spend my time in game tracking down herbs and brewing potions.  I gather them when I see them and perhaps spend once or twice a week for an hour or two brewing after collecting.  I've more herbs saved up that I can't use since the DC of the potions exceeds any roll +bonuses I can conceivably combine.  So I'm stuck trying whenever I've attempted a DC 20 potion to brew I get a -5 modifier each time to add to my +3 so in effect I'll never brew them until I can raise the level of the craft to negate the negative modifier.  I stick with DC15 potions with a +3 mod no negative and I'm still getting roughly 3 out of 10 attempts successful.

  Perhaps it may be easy for those with maxed/exceptional wis/con scores, but for those that play the average - exceptional range of stats I think it's fine.  I do agree that the alchemical potions such as stoneskins, invisibilities and high level (lvl 3+) should get a higher DC, or be harder to make/harder to find components.  If they design a crafting system to be hard for those with min/maxed stats then those of us that build characters that are a touch more balanced will inevitably never attain these crafting positions no matter the crafting level we achieve.  Not saying that the average Joe should be capable of it, but changing the DC to much will only drive more away from the craft.

  I do agree with some of what others have posted about making herbalism more about curative, buffing or simple arcane abilities and should never branch into the more specialized magical effects beyond those qualities.

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Rex

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2008, 01:43:19 PM »
Well until they come up with a forum program that brings up a bright flashy pop-up indicating that such a suggestion has already posted or everyone suddenly developes photgraphic memories you'll have to forgive people for occasionally posting ideas that have already been posted

When those people bringing up the ideas, are either the folks, or in the circle of folks that were throwing rocks and sticks at me for being mean and disgruntled about a system, I don't have to forgive anybody.

Well until they come up with a forum program that brings up a bright flashy pop-up indicating that such a suggestion has already posted or everyone suddenly developes photgraphic memories you'll have to forgive people for occasionally posting ideas that have already been posted



Or you can use my method:  Just assume Rex already brought it up.   :lol:

(all in good fun   :mrgreen: )

As a professional Playtester and Trouble Shooter and all around convention support for many big Game companies PnP wise, such an action is a wise action.  On that hand though you can be pretty assured, that if in a game environment of any nature someone introduces a new system, I will beat on that system till it breaks then apply it's results to a standardized game theory balance curve.  If it doesn't balance, you'll hear something from me pretty quick.

Weird nowadays you can actually get a Doctorate in RPG's and RPG systems.  Got to hang out with two of the great "brains" of the industry at Origins, so Game mechanics and Balance are still fresh in my deviant thought processes.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2008, 09:09:34 PM »
might be easy BUT  theres a high lack in healing potions, so many do herb crafting and herb supply is low to.


i think it evens things out, it might be easy but goes slow due to the fact the demand is higher then the available supply.

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Rex

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2008, 09:31:57 PM »
might be easy BUT  theres a high lack in healing potions, so many do herb crafting and herb supply is low to.


i think it evens things out, it might be easy but goes slow due to the fact the demand is higher then the available supply.

The supply is higher then what folks let on.  There's quite a lot of handouts happening.

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Kendaric

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2008, 06:15:12 PM »
ok going to add this in here cause its been on my mind for a while. But when i think of herbalism i think of populaces that heal and mend woulds, ala healing potins and restoration ones etc. I personally find it quite silly that we got plants able to make some pretty serious strong arcane and divine magics.  i mean seriously how does a PLANT mix make you invis? Or let you SEE someone invis, there's certain effects like that i find down right silly personally

in my thoughts herbalism maybe should be limited to the healing and restoration type potions, and the stat buff potions  at best. Thats my thoughts persoanlly as its more in line of what i can see plants and what not able to do

I have to agree, curative potions of any kind would be what I expect from herbalism. Everything else, including stat buffs, seems more like alchemy and I'd severely limit the types of potions that could be created even with alchemy. Having lots of True Seeing, Invisibility, See Invisibility, etc floating around is somewhat detrimental to the low-magic feel (and shouldn't potions be limited to the effect of 3rd level spells anyway, so True Seeing would be out anyway?)

ethinos

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2008, 06:23:03 PM »
I have to agree. We now have MORE potions floating around the market than ever before. We used to be only able to purchase curatives, barkskin, and a few others like Aid and Bless. Everything else was mostly loot. Now, you can get all sorts of potions that are very much more useful. This is definitely turning this server more into a moderate magic server, than low magic. :?
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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2008, 07:05:49 PM »
Even if the current spell effects available for brewing were removed and kept herbalism to just healing and stat buffs, when the alchemy system comes in, you might have the same situation since now mages will be able to re-create spell effects in potions. It's true the merchants didn't sell any snazzy stuff, but those were NPC mainly local merchants. The current ones are mostly PC outlander merchants.

You could take two approaches:

 :arrow: Decrease availability of components and thus potions
 :arrow: Increase the difficulty in brewing them so they're not as common
 :arrow: Keep herbalism to healing, removing diseases, restorations, barkskin, aid, stat buffs but not see invis, true seeing, freedom of movement, etc.

The first approach is if you keep herbalism as it is, of course, a decrease would obviously hurt the dungeoners and probably the new players a lot. Going by the third approach it maintains the server low magic till alchemy comes in. Thing is that unless the spell effects are limited even in alchemy, you probably won't stop this "moderate magic" server feeling you're experiencing ethnios. And I mean this because none of my chars use potions, so I really can't speak about sensing the server is going "moderate magic".

The thing is that even increasing the difficulty is just a minor snag, since crafters will eventually overcome it. Not to mention all it takes is two crafters to flood the market. During my time as Claire there was a moment in which Torgan and Dorin were mass producing so much steel and silver guilded stuff I even told Dorin he should raise the prices since people were killing werebeasts with such ease. I'd like to add that during that time silver gear was rare very rare till we got gilding implemented.


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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2008, 08:40:00 PM »
i remain of the firm belif that herbalism should go to just healing/remove disease/restoration potions as to me that is at its heart what herbalism is once alchemy is put in well thats dandy then if those true seeing and stat potions and what not come back

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2008, 04:05:07 AM »
I hear a lot of people talking about the alchemy craft like they know exactly what it's going to be.  I don't think I've read any official statements about it.

I have to agree. We now have MORE potions floating around the market than ever before. We used to be only able to purchase curatives, barkskin, and a few others like Aid and Bless. Everything else was mostly loot. Now, you can get all sorts of potions that are very much more useful. This is definitely turning this server more into a moderate magic server, than low magic. :?

I also hear a lot of people complaining about the number of potions people have.  Maybe everyone is secretly stockpiled full of potions, but I've never seen a person other than myself drink a resist elements potion, potion of freedom, potion of death ward, or potion of see invisibility.  The only ones I'm seeing people using are the ones that were there before, like invisibility, barkskin, ability buffs, and the lesser restores/heals.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 04:09:23 AM by Bad_Bud »

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2008, 12:38:35 PM »
You have to understand that I'm comparing today's server to the one I came into a year ago.

These were potions you could buy without any problems:

Aid, Bless, Barkskin, Lessor Restoration, Cure Light Wounds

The one fellow at Tigan's used to sell Invisibility, Barkskin, and Bottled Black, but only to certain classes.

The Crawler used to sell Bull Str and Cat's Grace I do believe.

The Mad Dok used to sell the equivelent of Cure Light, Moderate, Critical, and Lessor Restoration.

Otherwise, all buff potions were only found in loot (and still somewhat rare), potions of speed were rarer than hell, and none of the rest of the new herbalism potions were even in game.

Compare that list with what herbalists can make now, and you can see that herbalism has shifted the balance away from low magic.

As far as herbalism vs alchemy:

Herbalism should be rooted and based on the more realistic healing of the real world. Poltices, salves, tinctures, teas, and the like. Alchemy is based more on miraculous changes, because obvious changing lead to gold is not within the realms of natural science.
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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2008, 01:33:24 PM »
I don't know about the claims of herbalism being restricted to healing.  If you look at shamans, real world shaman based on what anthropologists know, and based on the folk archetype of a shaman, they tap into the plant world to reveal a world that was previously closed off, among a variety of uses beyond healing.  Protecting from death magic makes sense, brewing things that help provide keener senses, a sort of widening of one's perception, also make sense.

So using ingredients from nature to reveal invisible beings makes perfect sense with what some shamans do, or herbalists.  Using ingredients from the natural world, was usually more than just a physical method of preparing the potions.  It often evolved ritual, a sense of ritual that at least some clerics and priestess would be familiar with when tapping into the plant world to make potions. 

« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 01:36:11 PM by Iconoclast »

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2008, 11:07:31 PM »
I keep a bolthole of Haste potions for emergencies, now thats potent crack.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2008, 12:56:10 AM »
well. . .i have seen lots of potions around. I am quite happy with seeing them actually, dispite the fact that none of my chars can ever afford the prices which are being charged for them. It gives fighters a small chance to survive things a  bit more, since most mages and clerics will buff themselves and no one else.

A little clarity or death ward is nice, keeps one from dying every two seconds while adventuring in the nastier areas. Granted they don't last as long as spells, but that is to be expected.  In all honesty, if you have the coin, which i am sure once you get past the large neuri spawn in the sewers you will, then it will give every one a fair chance against everything. Look out mages, the fighters have a way to protect themselves now, with out using magic.
Oh wait, thats the setting. ;)
Supersticious barovians don't like magic and would be more inclined to deal with an herbalist for their needs.  I foresee witch hunts again, perhaps caution is advised since the city of valliki has been so lax in their burnings, and now they may not be.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2008, 01:27:54 AM »
honestly ellana i'd say most barovians would also be weary of herbalists to in many cases sure some would be more willing but i'd still say a good chunk would just shun those herbalists too :D

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2008, 04:09:38 AM »
especially since with this "herbalism" you can be equally shiny as mage ;) geez we are so far from that much praised low magic setting

id say native barovians would just run away as far as possible when encountering such herbalist. even though it comes from nature, its still looks extremely witchy. you can yell to them that dudeees its really natural, but all they see is that you have managed hit a tap in between the ribs of demon and your extracting its demonic essence


and i dont understand why we would see witch hunts ?
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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2008, 10:40:13 AM »
Worked out an interesting compromise that should make the two camps happy.  I'll post it in it's OWN thread with a few other crafting ideas probably friday night or saturday.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2008, 10:42:37 PM »
mmm, maybe.  I remember my first char here, two years ago. I made a wizard, lvl two, last the whole of about an hour and a half. Entered game, knew nothing of any of it, and was being shown around through town by another player, then all of a sudden, a guard stopped us and demanded taxes.
Of course, my mage was broke and had no coin, and the guard threatened to imprison her, so she cast a spell and tried to run.
Well, she got caught and subsiquently burned at the stake for being a witch. That of course is suspose to be the true nature of barovians if i recall. They are even leary of clerics if i recall form the lore.
Thats why i would imagine that most barovians would be more inclined to go to an herbalist as opposed to a cleric. Their supersticion is suspose to be uncannily high of any type of caster. Cleric's being the only ones tollerated, if barely.
Though, it has been a long time since i have seen that supersticion acted out in game at all.

But I appoligise, i am off topic.

As for herbalism being too easy, well, i think the -5 initially before one learns a recipie is reasonable and makes it all quite challenging, if not impossible for some pc's. My rogue will never be able to make potions, nor have an interest to, no wis, no con. . .along with the negs i would never be able to make anything potion wise with out dumping a huge amount of time into it.

Clerics are the most predominent i think in the area of having potions easier. Sorcs wouldn't, and wizards really wouldn't, not if they are geared towards being arcane casters rather than tanked battle mages.  So, i really think the system is fine.  I never have a problem finding herbs at all with any char, just takes some traveling about for an hur or so and i can come up with tons of things which grow around all over.  I even love the seasonal changes, some things can only be found at certain times, and i think it adds a very realistic and unique approach to it all.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2008, 11:32:23 PM »
Still to easy.  Fine tuning my Idea more Saturdayish.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2008, 05:10:57 AM »
Concerning what herbalism should involve and what effects it should produce, and that we've generally got the idea of what herbalism should be all wrong - I allow myself to post a quote from White Dragon magazine issue 273 about herbs found in Ravenloft. Now, although these things aren't truly official Ravenloft(?), it still at least presents the point that we aren't alone with our ideas of what herbalism can be, and, as you may notice, something we've drawn a lot of inspiration from:

Quote
   Adder's Tongue: Adder's Tongue is a small leafy plant that grows wild in valleys and on hillsides. It derives its name from the long, forked leaves that cover the plant. Adder's Tongue is small enough that it's often hidden under larger plants, making it hard to find. In the spring however, the plant bristles with yellow and orange flower blossoms.

Anyone ingesting a dose of adder's tongue receives a +4 bonus to saving throw vs poison for 1d6 hours.

   Black Avis: Black Avis is a tall, dark flower that somewhat resembles a large, lopsided lily. Its large blossom varies in color from black to a dark blue or rarely charcoal. Unlike most flowers, which sprout in the spring, the black avis comes into bloom in late fall and early winter.

An herbalist can make a potion out of black avis that negates both mundane and magical fear and depression for 2d6 rounds. It also has a 25% chance of temporarily curing most mental disorders, although this effect lasts only 1d6 hours, and each successive use on the same subject reduces this roll by 1 hour.

   Mist Weed: The rare plant known as mist weed can be found only in misty bogs and marshes and near the misty borders of the Demiplane of Dread. Even in these areas, the weed is uncommon. Someone searching for it can expect to spend several days in the hunt. It is a simple looking herb, growing in long grasslike tufts usually medium to dark grey.

Folklore attributes many powers to mist weed, including healing powers against disease and safety from the dangers and threats often associated with the mists of Ravenloft. Many commoners seek the weed and place it in a pouch worn on the chest r near the head as a kind of goodluck token. The more knowledgeable denizens of Ravenloft scoff at these simple charms as nothing more than peasant superstition.

   Red Cap: Red caps are rare mushrooms, named for the crimson colored splotches found on each fungi's top. They need plenty of moisture and just a little light to grow well and are usually found in deep woods or cave-riddled hills near large rivers. Each red cap stands five to seven inches tall and has a cap of roughly the same diameter. Only the cap itself has any value; the stem of the mushroom is useless and mildly poisonous.

One dose of red cap grants wizards increased magic ability for 1d4 hours, allowing them to cast spells as if two levels higher. It has no effect on non-spellcasters. It is also poisonous, requiring the ingester to make a saving throw vs. poison. If the saving throw fails, the inhiber loses one point Intelligence and Constitution permanently.

   Vistani's Bells: vistani's bells are small, blue, bell-shaped flowers that grow on vines. they are most often found clinging the walls of ancient stone buildings and ruins. the herb is most commonly found climbing the neglected churches in Barovia. Unlike other flowers, vistani's bells remain in bloom year-round, regardless of the weather.

The tea made from vistani's bells induces a deep sleep filled with wild but pleasant dreams, even for victims of the neverending nightmares spell or similar magics. It can be used for prophecy to achieve this effect but only the Vistani know how and they are unlikely to share the secret with outsiders.

   Willow Wisps: Willow wisps are small glowing fungi that grow on weeping willows and similar plants. When a breeze stirs the willow, the glowing light can sometimes be mistaken for a will-o-wisp or ghost lights. No more than 1d2+1 willow wisps grow on a given tree, and generally only 1d4 trees in a grove are affected with this growth. The fungus is somewhat more common in the domain of Forlorn, with 2d4 willow wisps on each tree and as many as 2d6 trees in each grove affected.

Willow wisps can be crushed and made into a paste. If a character covers his eyes with the paste, her nightvision is equal to that of a cat's for 2d4 hours. During this time, she suffers only half the normal penalties for darkness. However, the paste is mildly luminous, causing anyone using it to have glowing, ghastly eyes for the duration of its effect.

   Wilting Roeby: Wilting roevy is a small bushy plant usually found in forests, woodlands and marshes. Every spring it produces groups of small, fragrant purple flowers. The flowers of a wilting roeby can often be found to have turned brown and always die very early in the season. Local wisdom claims this is because the wilting roeby is a fragile plant that sometimes wilts for no reason at all.

Wilting roeby shrivels only near corporeal undead, so it doesn't warn of the presence of ghosts or spectres.

Concerning the more powerful potions we have available, it's my impression (and please correct me if I am wrong) that these are still very rare, because they require a larger variety of ingredients and have much higher DCs. Concerning the general availability, it still seems much lower than what is was before - I used to see people carrying several boxes full of potions.