Author Topic: Herbalism - Too easy?  (Read 7468 times)

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Herbalism - Too easy?
« on: July 11, 2008, 01:47:46 PM »
I completely agree with KoopaFanatic on herbalism being too easy. I feel it should have at least DC 40 potions in there and some of the healing potions should be set at a higher DC. The DC for some of what I consider very powerful potions is too low. True Seeing is DC 30, Freedom of Movement is DC 30, Death Ward is DC 30, Invisibility is DC 25. So far I've yet to find a higher DC potion over 30.

One of the cool things about smithing and leatherworking is that you have to master at least two more skills before getting the final product. In leatherworking you have to tan the pelts, then boil them then make the armor. Smithing, if I'm not wrong, is smelting, crafting and finally gilding if you're going to. Herbalism is just a one step process with low DCs. By level 15 I was already making Death Wards, even with the -5 modifier because of the stat modifiers I have. (One of them, CON, is even in the negative range). Maybe I'm asking for something that might be too much of a hassle, but perhaps a tool like a sickle being needed to collect the ingredients and have a DC check for grinding the components in the mortar and pestle and thus giving you ground up "herbalism ingredient" before putting them in the cauldron and having a brewing spoon for the cauldron? That way it feels more like a process.

Anyone else who has actually done herbalism find it too easy. Nonherbalists are free to give their opinion, but I want to know what people who actually use the system firsthand feel about this.


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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 01:58:18 PM »
honestly i'll give my opinon here along with delphi as someone who was one of the first to get in on herbailsm i got to agree higher dc would be nice for the more powerful potions i'd even say 35 in some cases. I to would like to see a second step process with the mixing added to even out the creation things compared to other crafts.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2008, 02:56:24 PM »
I'd have to agree that the DCs are too low, but I don't think you should make the crafting all together more difficult or time consuming. People use potions like it was water. Their very hard to keep in supply as it is already.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2008, 03:16:43 PM »
Glad to know I'm not the only one.  I don't necessarily like the idea of adding another skill to the process.  That just slows things down and penalizes those of us with limited playing time :)  This one is logical enough as a one-step process, and the increased price of bottles and the weird market for herbs is enough to serve as the barrier to entry.  Herbalism needs to be harder, not more time-consuming.

Speaking as another one in early on herbalism it just strikes me as completely nuts that a potion as obviously magical as expeditious retreat or endure elements is DC 15, and invisibility is only DC 25.  Even the stat buffs are a bit too easy to get.  Now what makes sense to me (your mileage may vary, naturally) is that the cure and restoration potion families stay at the same DCs as they have now -- curing wounds without flashy visible effects is what I think of when I think "herbalism."  Things beyond that should be a minimum of DC 20, with invisibility at least DC 30.  I could even see the current batch of (known) recipes being stretched out into the DC 40 range without being too much of a strain.  Sure, the first few levels are a pain when you can't even hit the DC 15 with any reliability, but once you know DC 25 potions the cxp just flies.  I'm fairly certain Mariska has leveled just as fast since buffs were removed as she did before, thanks mostly to invisibility, haste and freedom of movement.

If there were another skill to be added to the process, it would be nice if it were something that didn't take too long.  Maybe an herb harvesting skill required to pick the herbs without rendering them unusable (failure means you get nothing, success means you get one piece, a really good success or high levels yields two or three pieces).

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2008, 03:33:13 PM »
I've not partaken in any other crafts, so I don't have any basis for comparison regarding if it is too easy or not. 

All I knew is that a herbalist cleric with a healing domain and a church tradition of herbalism meant I was giong to do whatever was necessary to have the character learn the knowledge and skills.

We definetly don't want it easy to the point where every character is doing it because it isn't challenging enough, while at the same time making sure it doesn't become too time consuming or challenging.

Tweaking it and experimenting is part of the natural process, so I'm game for giving any changes a try. 

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2008, 03:45:19 PM »
Eeehh...  but herbalism is different than the other crafts.  We aren't making something that's going to last a long time.  This isn't the endgame fullplate your character wears until he dies of old age or trips and falls onto a rust monster.  Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Expeditious Retreat, and Death Ward do not feel like endgame prizes you should be working your ass off to get to.  In fact, I've never seen anyone even use a Freedom of Movement or Death Ward potion, so they can't be THAT widespread.  The current prices of some of the potions the top herberalists are making keep practically anyone from wanting the stuff (and possibly causing more people to probe into the herb world to find out).

I think what we have right now on what I'll call the "lower echelon" of herbalism is fine the way it is.  What I think we're missing is an upper echelon.  I think we should be seeing some DC 40-50 potions like stoneskin and possibly even something like a lesser spell mantle, but with great scarcity.  How cool would it be to stumble upon a dusty old book resting on the top of a book pile in the alhoon's lair, describing a legendary brew that makes one's skin hard like rock, and that the ingredient is only found deep withing the depths of the caves at the summit of Baratak.  Go on expeditions to find this ingredient, or maybe pay mercenaries to find you that elite vampire heart you heard another legend about.

I think herbalism needs something akin to the white stag hides and antlers that can be used in smithing and bowyering.  Right now there is no secret ingredient that makes everyone go wow.  Maybe it could be something as simple as dropping a vampire heart into the cauldron makes all brews more effective, but raises the DC by 15.  I know the in-game description of herbalism describes that plants, fungi, and animal matter are all parts of herbalism.  I also know that I've gone completely insane before throwing practically every animal and item in existence into that cauldron trying to find some secret brew.  I think I've thrown everything in aside from white stag antlers themselves.  Coldstones, alchemist's fires, crag cat pelts, winter wolf pents, musk ox horns, musk ox pelts, bear pelts, snakeskin, small snakeskin, rats, dire rats, mink pelts, meat, food rations, and many other things, but to no avail.  I end up emoting that the cauldron looks like a polluted lake with corpses bobbing on at the surface of the murky water, and I'm using my ladle to try to keep those bloated rat carcases below the surface.

Mystery, legendary brews, and adventure!  I think these things are missing from herbalism and could easily come along with much higher DC's (and fun) than we currently have.  I don't have a problem with the way herbalism currently is, because it feels right.  In comparison to the other crafts like smithing which require a lot more time, it feels a little wishy-washy, but I think some of the suggestions I've given could easily fix that while still leaving what we currently have exactly the way it is.  Though I guess it must be worth noting that any mystery added to a craft only lasts until one or two people find out about it, because then practically everyone will know.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2008, 04:09:47 PM »
The DC for healing potions should NOT be higher.. Since they are not buyable in stores anymore, there needs to be a bigger supply.
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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2008, 05:04:20 PM »
[. . .]

Things like stoneskin falls under alchemy, not herbalism. As far as I've noticed, all the potions are actual clerical spells, and not clerical domain spells. Use of vampire hearts and such for making potions would also fall under alchemy.

[. . .]

I agree DCs for buff potions should be raised and I also like the idea of the having some DC for picking the herbs. Now, about the not wanting to add an extra step to herbalism because one doesn't want to learn new skills or have it be less time consuming... well, the other crafts: leatherworking, smithing, and bowyering are all more than one step procedures. Why should herbalism be any different? I actually enjoyed the three step process for leatherworking as I truly felt I was crafting something.

The DC for healing potions should NOT be higher.. Since they are not buyable in stores anymore, there needs to be a bigger supply.

Cure Serious Wounds should be DC 30, not DC 25 and if we ever get Cure Critical wounds, that should be at least higher in the 35-40 range.


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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 05:12:47 PM »
  Herbalism too easy.  I don't think so, I've barely just made the 2nd level in the craft after about 60% failures.  Though I do agree with potions that fall under the alchemical listing, and the DCs should be slightly higher for potions that buff or are considered more high level in ability.  Healing potions as it is I feel are a bit high on the DC, especially with the removal of them from being readily available from stores. 

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2008, 05:24:39 PM »
To easy, said it back in the beginning of that, as well as all the alchemical comments as well, still dodging the rocks being thrown at me for that.  Crank up the Diff's for the "alchemical" stuff.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 05:32:25 PM »
The price was cranked up for the supplies.  That was enough to discourage many players.

On the other hand, I'm sure Rex found the mother lode and his cash flow was never better.   :lol:



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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 05:38:49 PM »
The price was cranked up for the supplies.  That was enough to discourage many players.

On the other hand, I'm sure Rex found the mother lode and his cash flow was never better.   :lol:





I've always considered about 300 to 500 gp on a PC to be rolling in dough.  Otto averages about 500 to 1000, Volstagg, well, 50K to 100K is what he usually travels around with since he won't use the bank and that's a low end for him unless he's stocked up the chests in the dwarf mines (Rex stocks for Noobs).

As for the potion thing, Otto trades Herbs for Potions for the most part, or sells Herbs off to Non Caster crafters.  There are a few dedicated Non Caster Herbalists that Otto likes to keep going flush with Herbs because they tend to keep him stocked up on the two or three bottles of the three types of potions he runs around with.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 05:45:08 PM »
Things like stoneskin falls under alchemy, not herbalism. As far as I've noticed, all the potions are actual clerical spells, and not clerical domain spells. Use of vampire hearts and such for making potions would also fall under alchemy.

Those were just crude examples of a general idea that I had to make with things that were already in place, like vampire hearts being somewhat hard to come by.  What about everything else I said, though?

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2008, 06:05:24 PM »
I agree DCs for buff potions should be raised and I also like the idea of the having some DC for picking the herbs. Now, about the not wanting to add an extra step to herbalism because one doesn't want to learn new skills or have it be less time consuming... well, the other crafts: leatherworking, smithing, and bowyering are all more than one step procedures. Why should herbalism be any different? I actually enjoyed the three step process for leatherworking as I truly felt I was crafting something.

On the other hand, herbalism is different from the other crafts because you're making something consumable.  It's less "hours of toil, but now finally my masterwork is complete!" and more "boy, I need to make more X..."  What value would be added by introducing another step?  For leatherworking, you have the flexibility of having multiple pieces of leather per hide (each of which has resale value) and deciding which ones to boil.  For woodworking there's making weapon hafts or oak planks out of/instead of wooden poles.  For smithing you have the option of making steel in the smelter.  

If there were some advantage added along with the extra hurdle, I'd probably change my tune.  For instance, if there were a "chopping" phase that turned one picked woundwart into two or three usable pieces, that would make sense.  If there were a "grinding" phase that let you customize the ratio of herb x and herb y to make a more potent potion, that would make sense.  But adding a whole additional skill (with crafting station, tool, and crafting item) just to slow down progression strikes me as counterproductive at best.

Honestly, I think the balance is about right at the beginning as-is.  DC 15 in a new craft is hard enough, especially buffless.  My concern is with the low- to mid-level herbalists, around level 5.  At that point a lot of recipes are possible, including many of the most useful ones.  That means that almost any herb-hunting trip will give you something that starts to have a decent chance of pulling in crazy amounts of cxp.  That means that unlike in the other crafts, the process of churning through material to get to master levels gives you really useful items instead of the unwanted detritus like copper greatswords and beech longbows.  Spreading out the DCs to higher numbers for the most desired potions (buffs, invisibility and the like) would balance things out with the other crafts.  Leveling on remove paralysis and remove fear potions is a little more in keeping.  Still more appealing than copper daggers, but not as great as pumping out gallons of expeditious retreat potion the same day you start in the craft.  That part is what gets you the mini-mages/too powerful comments, I think.  If the most common starting-level potions were limited to the less overtly magical ones, it would be a little more....sane.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2008, 12:05:05 AM »
Things like stoneskin falls under alchemy, not herbalism. As far as I've noticed, all the potions are actual clerical spells, and not clerical domain spells.

Forgot to say earlier, that invisibility is not a clerical spell.  I don't think see invisibility is, either.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2008, 01:25:51 AM »
Your quite right, they aren't. I don't know if they were both thrown in to balance each other out and to be a substitute to all the invisibility potions certain shops sold.


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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2008, 01:47:09 AM »
Things like stoneskin falls under alchemy, not herbalism. As far as I've noticed, all the potions are actual clerical spells, and not clerical domain spells.

Forgot to say earlier, that invisibility is not a clerical spell.  I don't think see invisibility is, either.

True Seeing is a cleric spell.
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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2008, 02:19:46 AM »
see invis, true seeing are both clerical and arcane..
invis is arcane, or trickery dom.

right personally I don't find herbalism easy, as I don't have more then a half hour a day, and I've got 8 wisdom >.<
but I actually agree with the DC parts, true seeing should really be up near 35-40

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2008, 05:38:39 AM »
...True seeing only has one purpose.  I don't see why that would need to be so hard to make.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2008, 10:06:48 AM »
...True seeing only has one purpose.  I don't see why that would need to be so hard to make.

According to the spell changes (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2173.0):

Quote
True Seeing
Spell Level: Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wiz/Sorc 2, Animal 3, Knowledge 4
Innate Level: 5
School: Divination
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Touch
Save: No (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No (harmless)
Area of Effect/Target: Single
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Turn/Level
Description: The target recieves the ability to see through invisibility and magical darkness, and also gains a bonus to their spot and search equivalent to their level. They also receive immunity to illusion spells such as Phantasmal Killer and Weird.

That's see invisibility and through sanctuary spells, the equivalent of the ultravision spell against the Darkness spell, the spot and search bonus (+20 to both I've checked) as well as immunity against Phantasmal Killer and Weird.

This is why it should be so hard to make.


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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2008, 11:04:33 AM »
...True seeing only has one purpose.  I don't see why that would need to be so hard to make.

According to the spell changes (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2173.0):

Quote
True Seeing
Spell Level: Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wiz/Sorc 2, Animal 3, Knowledge 4
Innate Level: 5
School: Divination
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Touch
Save: No (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No (harmless)
Area of Effect/Target: Single
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Turn/Level
Description: The target recieves the ability to see through invisibility and magical darkness, and also gains a bonus to their spot and search equivalent to their level. They also receive immunity to illusion spells such as Phantasmal Killer and Weird.

That's see invisibility and through sanctuary spells, the equivalent of the ultravision spell against the Darkness spell, the spot and search bonus (+20 to both I've checked) as well as immunity against Phantasmal Killer and Weird.

This is why it should be so hard to make.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2008, 11:10:50 AM »
Exactly. Now you know why they're so wanted. Noica with a true seeing potion would spot all sneaks except probably one and that's only because of two or three skill points of difference. And since they're that powerful they should be more difficult to make. That's four effects (See Invis/See Sanctuary Effects, Ultravision, Spot/Search Bonus and protection against certain illusion spells) for a measly DC 30.


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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2008, 11:53:05 AM »
I'm pretty certain the spell has been changed to be based on level now.  The potions are level 9 versions of true seeing, so I only get +9 to search/spot when I chug those potions.

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2008, 11:55:04 AM »
ok going to add this in here cause its been on my mind for a while. But when i think of herbalism i think of populaces that heal and mend woulds, ala healing potins and restoration ones etc. I personally find it quite silly that we got plants able to make some pretty serious strong arcane and divine magics.  i mean seriously how does a PLANT mix make you invis? Or let you SEE someone invis, there's certain effects like that i find down right silly personally

in my thoughts herbalism maybe should be limited to the healing and restoration type potions, and the stat buff potions  at best. Thats my thoughts persoanlly as its more in line of what i can see plants and what not able to do

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Re: Herbalism - Too easy?
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2008, 02:24:38 PM »
Exactly. Now you know why they're so wanted. Noica with a true seeing potion would spot all sneaks except probably one and that's only because of two or three skill points of difference. And since they're that powerful they should be more difficult to make. That's four effects (See Invis/See Sanctuary Effects, Ultravision, Spot/Search Bonus and protection against certain illusion spells) for a measly DC 30.

Wow, when did that get changed?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 02:32:57 PM by Bad_Bud »