You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Realism vs Game - feedback  (Read 32544 times)

DM Macabre

  • Dungeon Master
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 9161
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2008, 06:38:54 AM »
I really don't understand those players, who say that there is nothing possible or nothing going on. When I was a player here, playing Regno - a mad cultist of Zhakata, there was a lot going on with my character and around him and well yeah we even moved things and made permanent changes. And it is certainly not because it was in a previous time. We could have done the same roleplay also under the current system. In some parts maybe even more intense and better. We didn't even need a DM to do things. Most of our ideas were player driven and it was greatly enjoyable. We got some DM assistance, because some DM took interest in our group after a while, but most of what we did we did it by ourselves. There is a lot possible, you just have to do it! Problem might be that some think to really change a thing you have to influence those infamous NPCs and then you will succeed. You don't need to do this! You can of course, but you will play with the fire. If you get too strong ties to them, they might as well try to get rid of you if you might be too dangerous. Some players did it and some with great success..  at least for a while.

This is your world and the developers provide a great background for it. Form a group, make your changes. If you need DM assistance from time to time, just ask.

One last thing about levels and factions. I completely disagree with archonzero and maybe some others on this point. Just having levels makes you not a good leader on a roleplay server. It is your negotiation talent, your talent for intrigues and diplomacy that makes you gain higher ranks. And it is realistic and correct that way. Why? Because your levels say nothing about your mind talents. It just says how good your combat and body skills are. In another post I voted for roleplay goes always over roll play. And I repeat that here: just because you can roll 60 on Influence means nothing if you can't roleplay it properly. Just because you are a level 20 outlander and best warrior in town means nothing when you join the guards, just because you are an outlander. That's the way Barovia is.

You want permanent changes? One last thing to keep in mind. There are figures in the world that are against progression. You might get an impression of a slow world, a depressed state, a place with not much hope. But that's the way Barovia is.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 06:43:54 AM by DM Macabre »

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979

shadymerchant

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1453
  • Legendary Pimp Cat (Circa 1876)
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2008, 10:24:02 AM »
...

:thumbup:

Until you've played a myriad of factions, it's really hard to fully appreciate how well they work in terms of pushing forward the server narrative. I have played guard, rebel, caliban, ezrite, and vardo sometimes all at the same time and I can tell you they all work together. Sometimes they don't realize it, but it's such a small world that you feel the effects from what a lower ranking vardo does. You feel the effects of PC's with rank in the guard. You feel tensions created as a caliban. It's all connected. One of the limitations has always been the lack of players that involve themselves though. I play all those factions because when one loses steam, I join to give it a boost, like I did the guard and Daeros Amanar. There's a handful of cross faction players that end up doing this. We want new blood. We want more people in the mix and new leaders to emerge. People seem to shun the idea in many cases, and it's frustrating to me because it's the most effective way of joining the game world.

There is a ceiling to what you can accomplish, but most players choose to never participate at all. Not being in a faction is much, much harder.

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2008, 10:42:29 AM »
this is doubtlessly true. . .atlantia. . one of the lowest ranking members of the church. . .for doing some massively dumb stuff, she might have some of the most information on a great majority of people. But no one ever asks and none ever think to see what she's really writing in that little journal of hers. She even has the guts. . or maybe is because she's half suicidal. . .to go looking for people like yves alone.  :P

Iconoclast

  • Church of the Lawgiver
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6646
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2008, 01:08:18 PM »
PoTm is thankfully not part of our fast-food culture.  I'm also hearing J.F.K in the background here saying "Ask not what your server can do for you, but what you can do for your server."

It takes patience, team work, and vision to tell a story.  What is great about factions is that instead of the focus being strictlhy on the individiual character's story, each faction has a story.  There have been characters that as soon as they see Nell Ward in her green robes, at least in one case the woman became frightful and nervous.  It turns out her first impression of an Ezrite was based on Jadin, who likely left her scarred by words.  Another scene just two days ago involved a man carrying his dead friend over his shoulder who walks right past Nell, which they were a ways away from any npc clerics.  She then told him before he walked away to place the body down on the ground.  He was then shockd, looking at her green robes, because he had come to assume due to Deneve sometimes only offering succor to those of the faith, that all Ezrites were like that. 

So it is in these ways, that characters within a faction can shape and influence one another. 

Each faction has a history.  A player can roll up a character two years into a faction's story, and that character can then be influenced by two year's of faction history, that was created by the faction dms and the players previously in the faction.  There is an ongoing story, a grand narrative that contains countless stories within it.  This rich ic context can than add levels of meaning to newly rolled up characters, if the player knows how to or allows it to happen. 

There are a lot of factions though, and not every faction will be able to be fully active all the time.  Some factions are much easier to play due to alignments or faction concept.  The Rebel Faction, as much as we loved it, being that the characters were xenophobic and anti magic, and being fighter based classes, it was extremely hard having a Gundarakite Rebel as a full time character.  That was when I began the practice of playing two characters.  I'd have my Gundarakite out by day light, and my caliban out by night.  I feel with Talek's awesome dming and dev work, we made the most of the rebel faction, but after a few years, although my interest in rebels can easily be rekindled, it was nice to try out another faction.  So now we have the Church of Ezra, and there are niches within that faction that are just waiting to filled by players with vision.  The TN sect of Ezra is about to be represented in Dementilu, and talk about having that awesome Cathedral with all its vast ambiance and dripping cielings as a setting for much of their role play. 

Once a player becomes immersed in the dyanmic story play that involves the various active factions we have, you'll then start seeing niches open up with some vision.  Combine a vision, a solid character concept that is intended to benefit the setting, with some patience and team work, and you'll be reaping the benefits.

I also disagree with any notion of having ranks determined by character level.  There is some ground to be given to character level and skill roles, but ultimately the roles characters will play in a faction or story will depend on the role play itself.  So role playing trumps skill or ability roles or character level in my book. 



« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 01:12:14 PM by Iconoclast »

DM Shadowspawn

  • Guest
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2008, 01:39:14 PM »
Throwing my hat in the ring here.

I've seen many things which have occurred which have had a permanent effect on the world.
  • Ladies Rest closed temporarily for renovations after existing owner murdered (Plot Driven)
  • The rumbling in Dverghiemm did not exist to begin with, it's addition is for plot reasons
  • Statue of Strahd in Market district is a replacement from a rebel attack of a previous fist
  • The Main gates to Vallaki in the outskirts were rebuilt after a differing rebel attack
  • Changes in server dynamics with addition of differing crafts.
  • Before my time, but I have heard the Sanctuary of Eternal Dawn was a IC Purchase made between the Morninglord Faction and the Red Vardo

I learned something when trying to make my first few NPC's for this setting in the toolset. It takes time. I spent 6 hours working on one NPC. Now, I am sure I'm not as practiced as the dev's are, but when you look at the awesome work they put out consistently it begs one to question, should they change a piece of the module because one PC did something? If this is all they did, which is all volunteer time mind you, then the module would never grow. There are two brand new areas which will be arriving IG soon. The time spent on these will have been significant I'm sure. Changes made are slow, but they do occur and almost always caused by some faction on the server.

Specific to the crafting. It's receiving so much attention as so many people figure it's easy money. PC's have made their entire play time revolve around it, which can and will pay off. Others have created a trade network. There will very soon be discussions regarding a crafting guild. With the inclusion of herbalism crafting in general terms has become in vogue. This will change and the players whom enjoy doing so will continue while others will stop.

The DM team has some new blood within it whom are doing some grand things. Earlier in this thread someone said DM's favor certain players. I'll hold my hand up proudly and say I do, sort of. I run two factions. For those factions I have a few plots running which are far from specific to only my faction. I have roughly 15 active PC's and you can add on all their associates as spill over I primarily focus on. I also aid other DM's and players whom make requests, but the members in my factions and whom they are with come first.

Here comes the plug: DM's do spend a majority of there times dealing with there factions. If you want to become involved it is a lot easier to do so with a PC in a faction. Here is the list of supported factions.
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=6519.msg66287#msg66287

Iconoclast

  • Church of the Lawgiver
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6646
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2008, 01:54:49 PM »
Shadowspawn is on the money about how changes are made on the setting.  It is hard to justify a single character making too much change on the developed world, as far as setting.  But when your character is part of something bigger, such as a faction, and if the role playing is fostered by a dm who is also a developer, then changes happens and impacts are made.  The chapel at Zeklos Keep was in ruins when Deneve and Nell came into being.  It was only natural for the Church of Ezra to make an effort to bring the Zeklos family back into the Church.  It was a blast learning about the history behind the ruined chappel, and it was fun having an ic shared goal of reopening the chapel and rebuilding it and restablishing "healthy" relations with the Zeklos family. 

Even the faction's I'm not directly involved with by character, I get excited when I see guards and militia raiding the Red Vardo.  It sends ripples out and becomes inclusive beyond faction lines. 

archonzero

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
    • ArchonZero's Gallery Art
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2008, 02:08:51 PM »
  Ironically Iconoclast.. the level cap is intended as a maximum allowance.. not a minimum and as I cited, they were flexible to however they wished them to be examples are only examples not exacts.  Soldiers gain rank based on proven qualifications of understanding and achievement.  This in part is dictated by the level of the class/character simply to reflect the competency of physical prowess and skill knowledge that coupled with the roleplaying ability of the character would give rise to rapid movement in the ranks as opposed to someone who simply just grinds levels and does bit part roleplaying.  It would allow the ranks to be grabbed up by those proven as well giving a tiered system for controlling the power increased in each faction.   ^^

  I've seen it implimented on a few other servers and been a rather successful, it simply moves those with the most to offer the faction/community a spot from which to make and shake things.  Which I'm sure it already does here, but without a framework to which each faction has limitations in, the power levels can get grossly overinflated and upset the balance of fair play?

  So yes a low level character can easily hold a higher ranked position based on roleplay and drive, but inevitably their power growth should come to a point were it out grows the profession.  More or less if the player wishes to seek better things (ie go for level 20) to step aside and allow another player to be groomed for the position.  You could go theoretically go from level 1-whatever as the same rank in a faction.  But I would think the level limitations or minimums, should be set so that the players need to move up the chain in a proper manner, allowing the DM and players involved the time to interact with said player.  I'm quite sure a gifted role player can RP their heart out with many things to prove they are the man/woman for the part.  Yes rising quickly in the ranks happens both in fictional and the real world, though still there is a need for competency and skill assessment on each stage as they move up.   Before they get to a part were their ambition may superseed them to a point where they have it all, retire or are forced out of their position by a jealous rival from below or above the ladder.  The level min/max is simply there to breath time for each stage, to give the player and DMs the chance to see if they're going to have what it takes.  Mostly though it would prevent power levels in factions from upsetting the balance of power for the setting as well the player base.  It's something I would think the DMs could agree on. 

shadymerchant

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1453
  • Legendary Pimp Cat (Circa 1876)
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2008, 02:11:16 PM »
I would also challenge the belief that "my character is chaotic and won't do such and such." They can do it, and it will have the added benefits of generating tension and growth for your character. Daeros joined the guard as an evil thug, worked his way up to neutral, and finally left the guard after feeling that he could no longer function as a good character. Sure, it didn't work out, but it was a great ride. The same can be said for all of my characters. My rebel started out as chaotic good, and he's now evil.

Tension and conflict is what drives roleplay. Dive in and fight your characters battles. Staying on the sidelines to avoid challenges to how you would like to play your character and avoiding the challenge of changing your perception of them is going to result in less of an impact on the server. Your in your own narrative. Factions aren't any one player, as icono said. Factions are a narrative you join.

Ruxandra

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2008, 11:12:11 PM »
The problem is theres no capitalization on it. The TOUD was never actually in the books so. . . I dunno, there seems to be a sense that if it wasn't detailed in the source books we can't do it, it's something i've talked with other DM's about before and may bare discussion with the whole team.

The thing is though, it's just proof of everything I pointed out. The Time of Unparalleled Darkness is largely acknowledged by T$R's ex-staff as a plot device to herald the end of the line and dissolution of the demiplane since it's played out. The setting is indeed a static world that is fairly illogical and a bit of nonsense when you try to actually put it into realistic linear time and consistency which is why it was never intended as any sort of ongoing setting. Unfortunately T$R had a horrible business model and things went tits up and they sold off what properties they could offload to doggie paddle for as long as they could, RL was one of the first to go.

Of course, those who picked it up indeed wanted to continue to make coin off of it and quickly quashed any obvious impending Plot Doomsday Device alluded to in an attempt to produce more material (as can be expected).

The material isn't meant to change. Each domain is largely a snapshot in time with its own unique flavor (which is the appeal) that changes very little over time despite logic and common sense telling us there's no way a lot of things that have supposedly perpetuated for centuries would be near impossible to pull off on even peasants. (Your typically experienced mid-level adventurer from the usual setting would for example deduce what Strahd is with minimal poking around.)

The setting is mostly an ~event~, a gimmick. Your PCs get tossed into it and the goal is to survive and get the hell out. It's not meant to be much more than that (although the dev team does a very fine job of portraying it well). Turning an event into a persistent and consistent reality is hard. How do you make persistent reality about playing and replaying the "7 Years War" and expect people to not get bored of it? The smarter players will realize that nothing they do is really going to affect much in any real way and they're fine with that, busying themselves with other things like adventuring. Making those things less rewarding and all you're going to have left are people who get their jollies out of IRC (sitting around and talking, nothing more).

I'm not blaming the dev team or anyone for anything. I realize that sticking to a rather static and unfinished product's canon is going to mean you have no guiding light to follow. Of course no one wants to risk being the visionary who pushes time forward and does something risque like off Strahd simply because you risk alienating people migrating here hoping to find an authentic, canon experience. Unfortunately you're just going to have to accept as a player that impact will almost always be minimal on your part and doing anything revolutionary will most likely meet with the big, unavoidable Death on your end simply because change isn't the word of the day.

The best solution this server has is to make that Hamster Wheel of Busyness a very big Hamster Wheel indeed so that most players who do realize the reality of things don't get bored easily and those who don't realize their impotency of impact don't realize it at all since there's so much to do. Barring the dev team actually taking the helm into their hands and creating impacting storyline that is (which is admittedly, very risque and potentially damning to the authenticity).

Instead? That wheel is getting smaller and tighter. Convenience disappears for no real reason as items poof from shops and the chests load little more than an insult to anyone who walks to them. Farmers haven't stopped farming, they just farm *more* in the hopes that frequency will yield results and the rest of us who don't farm at all become even more disillusioned as we face near-death just to find 15 gold and a fan or potato.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the server. I love it and think it's the closest thing to perfect in terms of material, people and interpretation, but the meta-direction it's going is losing sight of the definition of "game." There's little fun and more chore in a game that already had a bit too much chore in it when I first logged in. I still check in now and then and hope things have changed so I find it more enjoyable and probably will so long as I'm able (although atm my computer keeps crashing on it within minutes).

Some people no doubt are unbothered by the situation, but these people could be satisfied by IRC roleplay chatrooms just as easily. Most people who bought NWN however, did so because they find adventuring fun and emoting taking a bath or peeing in the bushes (see Real Life) not so much. Getting some XP and having the vague hope of finding something that somehow upgrades your character in a chest you nearly died to reach should not make you feel dirty ever.

If Real Life was such a compelling game, so many people wouldn't seek to escape it everyday after work/school.
Ruxandra, Beater of the Elderly! (It was medicinal, really!)
"I never stabbed anything that didn't stop being an immediate problem."

Ratchet, Lost Wingnut with a Screw Loose
"Barovia will know true fear, she carries a wrench and wields dimples."

ThAnswr

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3045
  • We all end up the same: Level 20 or dead.
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2008, 11:46:31 PM »
I can't disagree with anything Ruxundra has said.  On more than one occasion, I've heard "giant chatroom" to describe what's going on.  And much as the changes have been made to foster more RP and less dungeoning, I see the exact opposite happening.  You no longer meet people at Murnu's because there's nothing to buy and next to nothing to sell. Most of the time I'm selling wolf pelts.  No one sits around the Ladies Rest campfire anymore.  There's nothing to talk about.

It's becoming "The Sims - Ravenloft". 
Sig by Garison



When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter Thompson

"Rock is overpowered, paper is just about right" - Scissors
Thanks Aahz

Lyrithean

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2008, 11:54:54 PM »
It's becoming "The Sims - Ravenloft". 

Actually I find The Sims horrifying and the games fill me with abject terror

penny

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2008, 11:56:48 PM »
It's becoming "The Sims - Ravenloft". 

Actually I find The Sims horrifying and the games fill me with abject terror

And Ravenloft isn't horrifying and doesn't fill you with terror?  :P

(I know it doesn't.. but it's SUPPOSED to, given that it's a horror game and all.)
Plays as:
Mira
Adriana Cardei

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2008, 12:50:31 AM »
I agree with Ruxandra...

Peradventure the server's past persistently and progressively shaped the module into what it is now.  I did not know of any of the events Shadowspawn spoke of because they were from before my time.  I think the arguments made by Iconoclast and Shadymerchant are fitting, but not current.  What has been said about the server and change is said with a hindsight of what happened in the server before, but not with an eye on the server's current status.  This thread is about what the server has become (I don't think realism was touched on much, ha).

However, I am but a newbie here, and I do not have the legacy some of the other players have, so I can't relate to the big picture.  What I can say, though, is that I've been here for three months and I haven't experienced any world changes, and the sad thing is that the server creates the feeling (at least for me) that there won't be any near future.

I've seen ban after ban hit and lift Vallaki, but they were all just bedtime stories.  The shadow fey incident, I feel, could have been so much more.  It was a faction event that affected almost everyone.  It was scary, it affected the population, and sent chills down the spines of elves, but in the end, and almost overnight, the situation was resolved, the ban lifted, and things back to the way they were before.

Regno was a fantastic character and a fulfilling experience, but I don't know what Macabre is referring to when he states that Regno made permanent changes.  Regno may have affected a lot of characters, but the lasting effect is not there in my opinion.  I'm not disappointed that Regno didn't make a more lasting impact, though, because he didn't feel like the kind of character to do such a thing; however, to think of all Regno accomplished and all whom he affected; after he died, it was as if he had never existed, and that's the way it is for a lot of characters.  To make a change, you character really has to put their neck on the line.  The sad part being, even if your character was influential -- after they've passed on, most people won't remember or even care.  It will be the talk of town for a few days, maybe... perhaps the cause of a pitic ban set and lifted, but in the end, the character will not have a legacy, lost in oblivion.

I read a game review once (perhaps it was from a chum on IGN) where the editor stated that they loved Neverwinter Nights (online) because it was a new type of roleplaying game.  It was not a roleplaying game where you assumed the role of a character already set down in predetermined plot, like Zelda, or a competitive MMO where you farm all day and wage war all night, but instead an "intimate" roleplaying experience, where each and every person has a chance to feel accomplished.  I feel like the intimacy isn't here.

I wish I could walk into the Morninglord Temple and learn that they had to station two lightcarriers near the crypt entrance because of "that one incident", or learn that "Oh, that building was shut down after the *faction plot*.  The newfound racism amongst the citizens caused the business to falter, due to the owner being a gnome."  Instead, I walk around in a very detailed, carefully crafted world that seems to lack personality.  But before anyone pounces on me for making that statement, what I mean by personality is not in reference to the module's spunk.  I mean that the game feels like I'm walking through an art gallery filled with beautiful pictures, when in reality I should be standing upon the actual ground the artist painted, not watching it hide behind a gold frame and a glass plate.

When I played Neverwinter Nights in the past, I always felt like I was accomplishing something when I played.  If I stayed up late playing and botched a test in school the next day, I felt alright, because I felt like it was time well spent.  If my computer ever decided to cease being able to run Neverwinter Nights, or should the vault crash and all of my characters disappear, I would be left feeling unfulfilled.  I often neglect real life responsibilities in an effort to play on this server, and on an increasingly more frequent basis, I see myself logging off and slapping myself for having spent so much time doing nothing.  At least in the past, on other servers, I could log off happy, feeling I had either made an impact or had an opportunity to.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 12:52:52 AM by Bad_Bud »

hi-di-ho

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 759
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2008, 03:59:43 AM »
Quote
    * Ladies Rest closed temporarily for renovations after existing owner murdered (Plot Driven)
    * The rumbling in Dverghiemm did not exist to begin with, it's addition is for plot reasons
    * Statue of Strahd in Market district is a replacement from a rebel attack of a previous fist
    * The Main gates to Vallaki in the outskirts were rebuilt after a differing rebel attack
    * Changes in server dynamics with addition of differing crafts.
    * Before my time, but I have heard the Sanctuary of Eternal Dawn was a IC Purchase made between the Morninglord Faction and the Red Vardo

1. It would be nice if there were a way to describe how it happened through the dwarves, and with names involved with it

2. Faction action is great, as I said, there needs to be people around to tell the tale

3. didn't last for long. I see the trees have grown back  :|

4. The final death knell of "adventuring and find it yourself" adventures and the the beginning of the Red Vardo monopoly

5. Very underhanded, it would be nice to hear some of the reasons. besides the...*cough* horrible comments about how it came to be

What I really wanted to see was Petre running the guardsmen before getting shutdown, That would've been awesome! and judging from what I heard from back then, he deserved it, but hearing that he didn't and the ensuing talk about it almost made -me- quit the server at that time.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When I first came to the server, I had a goal of two things... have a Werewolf to play, and make a character worthy of a tombstone.

yup a Tombstone, like those things that popup with the examine feat, that says "Here lies Sando, Asshole and friend", And there is a certain tree right before crossing a small bridge over the river two areas after the asylum in which I RPed with different characters that states "Sando Colt was here" upon a spot check of 20 (usually I would make sure my character fails the check before sending it through Tell), made when he was with a group from long ago and thought he was going to die.

We may not change the world, but we would like to see our @$$ stain on at least on a pebble. Local legends should be widespeard and give those screwed up peasent NPCs something to talk about besides the damn incestery of the brother and sister of the noble district.

"My heavens, this place turned to a dump since that mad man Marcus left his job for a incompentent fool [so and so's name]"

"I never let my children out since those rebels painted fists on the walls"

"I once saw a Red Vardo disappear into the air one time...but ya didn't here it from me..." if cha = 14+ and not Vardo, if not *stares at you suspisiously*

"I saw two lively bards at the broken bell inn, It was a great performance, it almost made me over look their ears, but not their damned rowdiness!"

"Poor Ille has been much abuse by the hands of the guardsmen since the rule of Marucs, but he still carries the burden of the Morninglords example and an example to us all!"

"Feckin outlandehs 'n rebels 'n tere fanceh thundeh stuff took down teh count's gate! T'ey shall pay wit t'ere sorcery wit t'ere blood on me blade one day *Spits* afteh meh wife stops callin me home."

And that's just a few things NPCs -should- be saying. Its that that makes the server live and breathe, and give a character a reward greater than gold: fame...if only for a short time. I would love to have that tree pop up sando's message when someone passes the tree, but it sounded like a proposal that would likely be shot down and so I never asked for it to be done. but what I would like, is a tombstone if my character dies, or any prominent character who dies. It would be fun to see a pilgrimage to a Musician's grave for inspiration, see the grave of the woman ranger who loved a werewolf by the small grave of their child that died.


without these things, -nothing- lives on... the world is a stale and a literally unmoving thing, goes no where and does nothing but sit. play with it one day and it'll ask who you are, and always will because it'll never remember you, when it doesn't remember you why play with it any longer? Later it grows a chainsaw for a third arm, knows how to play chess, and can sing the baby blues, but never remember who you are. Score hi-score of 60,000,000 points at arcade, see it the next day reset back to manufacturer's standards. Go to your cousins house, have lots of fun and do something extraordinary that makes the neighbors go in awe and make your cousins look up to you, and come back a month later, and they gape at you with tilted heads: "Who are you?"

thats my :twocents:

DM Macabre

  • Dungeon Master
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 9161
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2008, 05:10:00 AM »
Local legends should be widespeard and give those screwed up peasent NPCs something to talk about besides the damn incestery of the brother and sister of the noble district.

That's a cool idea!  :thumbup:

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2008, 05:52:58 AM »
Quote
    * Ladies Rest closed temporarily for renovations after existing owner murdered (Plot Driven)
    * The rumbling in Dverghiemm did not exist to begin with, it's addition is for plot reasons
    * Statue of Strahd in Market district is a replacement from a rebel attack of a previous fist
    * The Main gates to Vallaki in the outskirts were rebuilt after a differing rebel attack
    * Changes in server dynamics with addition of differing crafts.
    * Before my time, but I have heard the Sanctuary of Eternal Dawn was a IC Purchase made between the Morninglord Faction and the Red Vardo

1. It would be nice if there were a way to describe how it happened through the dwarves, and with names involved with it

2. Faction action is great, as I said, there needs to be people around to tell the tale

3. didn't last for long. I see the trees have grown back  :|

4. The final death knell of "adventuring and find it yourself" adventures and the the beginning of the Red Vardo monopoly

5. Very underhanded, it would be nice to hear some of the reasons. besides the...*cough* horrible comments about how it came to be

What I really wanted to see was Petre running the guardsmen before getting shutdown, That would've been awesome! and judging from what I heard from back then, he deserved it, but hearing that he didn't and the ensuing talk about it almost made -me- quit the server at that time.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When I first came to the server, I had a goal of two things... have a Werewolf to play, and make a character worthy of a tombstone.

yup a Tombstone, like those things that popup with the examine feat, that says "Here lies Sando, Asshole and friend", And there is a certain tree right before crossing a small bridge over the river two areas after the asylum in which I RPed with different characters that states "Sando Colt was here" upon a spot check of 20 (usually I would make sure my character fails the check before sending it through Tell), made when he was with a group from long ago and thought he was going to die.

We may not change the world, but we would like to see our @$$ stain on at least on a pebble. Local legends should be widespeard and give those screwed up peasent NPCs something to talk about besides the damn incestery of the brother and sister of the noble district.

"My heavens, this place turned to a dump since that mad man Marcus left his job for a incompentent fool [so and so's name]"

"I never let my children out since those rebels painted fists on the walls"

"I once saw a Red Vardo disappear into the air one time...but ya didn't here it from me..." if cha = 14+ and not Vardo, if not *stares at you suspisiously*

"I saw two lively bards at the broken bell inn, It was a great performance, it almost made me over look their ears, but not their damned rowdiness!"

"Poor Ille has been much abuse by the hands of the guardsmen since the rule of Marucs, but he still carries the burden of the Morninglords example and an example to us all!"

"Feckin outlandehs 'n rebels 'n tere fanceh thundeh stuff took down teh count's gate! T'ey shall pay wit t'ere sorcery wit t'ere blood on me blade one day *Spits* afteh meh wife stops callin me home."

And that's just a few things NPCs -should- be saying. Its that that makes the server live and breathe, and give a character a reward greater than gold: fame...if only for a short time. I would love to have that tree pop up sando's message when someone passes the tree, but it sounded like a proposal that would likely be shot down and so I never asked for it to be done. but what I would like, is a tombstone if my character dies, or any prominent character who dies. It would be fun to see a pilgrimage to a Musician's grave for inspiration, see the grave of the woman ranger who loved a werewolf by the small grave of their child that died.


without these things, -nothing- lives on... the world is a stale and a literally unmoving thing, goes no where and does nothing but sit. play with it one day and it'll ask who you are, and always will because it'll never remember you, when it doesn't remember you why play with it any longer? Later it grows a chainsaw for a third arm, knows how to play chess, and can sing the baby blues, but never remember who you are. Score hi-score of 60,000,000 points at arcade, see it the next day reset back to manufacturer's standards. Go to your cousins house, have lots of fun and do something extraordinary that makes the neighbors go in awe and make your cousins look up to you, and come back a month later, and they gape at you with tilted heads: "Who are you?"

thats my :twocents:

Two cents well invested.

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2008, 06:27:11 AM »
I love the idea of adding more detail to the game this way. We have many times added small things like tombstones etc., but I would love adding a lot more. Players could even help add details of the world that are a bit lacking. We have a specific forum for handling such requests and suggestion, but perhaps we need to make it more publicly aware that we encourage such things and make better standards of how to do it. We could have forum threads that were dedicated to form rumor one-liners - used at our descretion of course - but it would be a great help to us for sure...

Having physical remnants of events in the module permanently is a great idea too - however - it should still be within reason and continue the spirit and artistic impression that we build by. If there's a tombstone saying "Here lies the greatest warrior of all time" by every 50 meters along the shores of lake Zarovich, it changes the feel of things. It should help build the module, add to the mystery and gloom, puzzling and sublte rather than a giant statue.


Doom

  • Pain? Pain is like love . . . like compassion! It is a thing only for lesser men.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3611
  • What is pain to Doom?
    • Last Stand Legacy Beta
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2008, 12:37:56 AM »
Quote
John W. Mangrum

Regarding the lack of "dynamism" in 3E Ravenloft: One of the first and best bits of personal advice I received as a fledgling game designer came from David Wise, who passed this wisdom on to me: "Your job [as an RPG designer] is not to tell a story. Your job is to give the DM the tools to tell a story."

The 1990s/2E era was, if anythying, a far too dynamic period for game design, with many products being rendered obsolete within a few years of their release. TSR was far from the worst offender at this, and Ravenloft was one of its setting least beholden to metaplot ("game designer as meta-DM," as Steve Miller once put it), but it was hardly immune. Grand Conjunction, I'm looking at you. (For 2E TSR settings truly shackled to their non-interactive tie-in novels, see Forgotten Realms and the mother of them all, Dragonlance.)

As game designers in 3E, we felt that if the first Gazetteer had been retconned by the time the final Gazetteer was published, then we'd have done something horribly wrong. Ultimately, readers would have discovered that even the simmering metaplot in the Gazetteer series wasn't about reshuffling the setting yet again -- it all came down to S and her journey as an individual.

Now, of course, we didn't do everything with the line that I would have personally liked as a consumer -- as a DM, I was reliant on modules, and I know I'm not alone -- but leaving the Big Changes as Dread Possibilities for DMs to tackle with their own stories is not one of my regrets.

hi-di-ho

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 759
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2008, 01:59:53 AM »
I love the idea of adding more detail to the game this way. We have many times added small things like tombstones etc., but I would love adding a lot more. Players could even help add details of the world that are a bit lacking. We have a specific forum for handling such requests and suggestion, but perhaps we need to make it more publicly aware that we encourage such things and make better standards of how to do it. We could have forum threads that were dedicated to form rumor one-liners - used at our descretion of course - but it would be a great help to us for sure...

Okay...

First, I think the DMs who run note worthy events, watch players out of curiosity, or players themselves should ask the DMs to suggest the rumors that the NPCs speak, This way the rumors aren't baseless but have a solid foundation of where it came from. Rumors should also be the warning sign that one's operations or identities are reaching the surface, and as such, they should take it as warnings to take their experiements/powers else where or lay low till things cool down. This would give rise to detectives and DM events that could be done to track sources of rumors, or lead the investigators to traps set by the rumor maker themselves.

second, could you point me in the direction so I could have a certain tree two or three areas (I think) away from the asylum-like place/ Gremshika ambush, before crossing the bridge and nearby the transit to say a worn out message of "Sando was here" upon a spot check of 20, as well as discuss when Sando gets executed, could I ask that he be buried along with a tombstone for helping Illie in the dark days long ago? I dun care if its a rock with a "X" on it, but something that says "Someone dead here, do not touch".

Quote
Having physical remnants of events in the module permanently is a great idea too - however - it should still be within reason and continue the spirit and artistic impression that we build by. If there's a tombstone saying "Here lies the greatest warrior of all time" by every 50 meters along the shores of lake Zarovich

I'm pretty sure our characters are -far more- dynamic than that, and certainly not many warriors to begin to do that  :lol:

On the subject of tomb stones, I think there should be a DM-only script for each tombstone for the necromancers-wannabes out there I would think. So when they raise undead in a DM/player run ritual near the deadman's location that they would rise more stronger or have a few classes that they had in their past life. but then again that would be too much work, but I'm just tossing pasta at the wall to see what would stick :|

Thank you for listening 8)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 02:02:46 AM by hi-di-ho »

Lyrithean

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2008, 03:53:22 PM »
It would be neat if there was a script that could read a base text file of rumors, events and lore (depending on area) that could be implemented to npcs in an area (I realize this has already basically been suggested). Content could be based from two locations, The player rumor forums and a DM only rumor forum, the DM Rumor forum could be used to inject hints and lead ins to a DMs upcoming plots. Once a week, or every two weeks, someone could go through the rumor forums and condense what was posted and add the rumors to the text file in the appropriate section and then email the file to Axel for DL onto the server. Single rumors could be broken up so that bits and pieces could be said by different npcs (so you don't wind up getting the full story from every npc you click on) and could further be broken down into importance and obscurity of topic. DM's can then throw in bits and pieces of completely false information to spice things up a bit. You could even set it up so that all the information could be broken down into several different areas (ie npc in the street mentions something happening at the Broken bell, players go to broken bell and get further information but discover that additional information can be found at the citadel, pcs arrive at citadel and wind up getting involved in guard interaction as they run into PC guards) This could allow for some sort of continuance to DM plots even when the DM is unable to log into the server but can still access the forums

hi-di-ho

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 759
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2008, 08:14:24 PM »
bingo :thumbup:

Serith

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2008, 02:45:33 AM »
This is going out on a limb, but maybe try basing the server events more off what happened in the Ravenloft novels then the campaign setting so much.  I know those books are used as alot of the basis for the module history, but back then....there were powerful characters, things did actually change.   Sure Strahd probably won't die, but there was a point where he disappeared for years to heal, quite likely some other being would move in during that time then you have a real power struggle for the domain.  Likewise at various times he seemed to keep a number of hirelings/power groups around, why not go down that trail and get some real power mover strife going and changes. 

RP is most meaningful when a character has a chance to influence things, or fail miserably and have the failure leave an impact.   The nature of the land won't change....you conquer one foe, the land corrupts another or greed creates them.  Key thing is...you have the same atmosphere, but you aren't seeing the same faces or fighting the same foes all the time.   This place has a great rarity namely a playerbase mature enough to handle serious setbacks, changes and truly spontaneous plots.   But the potential goes to waste when things never change....and it seems like all the powerful characters are people who gained that power a long time ago.

As for the other aspects of realisim, I've found that in servers with a serious risk of permadeath and generally harsh environment that RP is dramatically enhanced when characters can get to a "decent" level of power quickly.   It encourages a good deal more in the way of original plots, risk taking and "sticking your neck out".  Forcing players to scrabble for crafted gear or scrounge for weeks before gaining any actual measure of power seems more like a punishment then anything else.   And level always affects your chances of doing things, a low level character can only go so far on charm and wit before an assassins blade takes them out and they are unable to defend themselves.  Likewise for anyone looking to take a leading "field" role...you need the strength to defend that.   
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 02:55:44 AM by Serith »

hi-di-ho

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 759
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2008, 06:29:46 PM »
As for the other aspects of realisim, I've found that in servers with a serious risk of permadeath and generally harsh environment that RP is dramatically enhanced when characters can get to a "decent" level of power quickly.   It encourages a good deal more in the way of original plots, risk taking and "sticking your neck out".  Forcing players to scrabble for crafted gear or scrounge for weeks before gaining any actual measure of power seems more like a punishment then anything else.   And level always affects your chances of doing things, a low level character can only go so far on charm and wit before an assassins blade takes them out and they are unable to defend themselves.  Likewise for anyone looking to take a leading "field" role...you need the strength to defend that.  

I agree with you on alot of points except this here. With the risk of Permadeath, people tend to go a bit OOC and and steer their characters out of the way (well, what've I've seen and heard long ago). There is no real award for your character committing Permadeath. Until things change, Permadeath is the last thing (or thee "Thing" people want most depending on the person) anyone who spent alot of time working on their characters, to see.

I always thought that if one character is perma'd they should get at least a "Coupon" for their next character made, perhaps a few extra coins a few more levels on their next character made, so people can throw away their stale characters and get at least a new character proportional to the character that died (perhaps a quarter to half the level of the original), so they can add something new to the setting. With that people wouldn't be so scared of losing their characters, and when their characters die, they can get a battle hardened field commander from the mist rather than the common every single day level 2 farmer boy with nothing to back himself up with.

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: Realism vs Game - feedback
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2008, 06:48:11 PM »
I've yet to see much in the way of Perma Death here.  I think I can count it on one hand yet.

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.