Realism vs Game - feedback

[Heretic]

I would love to see the factions handled a bit more by the players rather than DMs and NPCs,

The guard is PC ran, its my philosophy of how factions are supposed to be run: by players' PC's, Npc's to add to it. The Verzi: the faction has a lot of jobs and the loyal ones will scale up and eventually who knows, recruit, lead and more. But its very, very hard to be a Verzi.

[Doom]

Hey, Whoa, Hey whoa, hey whoa. . . I didn't mean to spawn a deluge of complaints about the Dev or the DM team. . . remember that I R ones too.

Factions.

Factions were GOOD. They were ALSO PC driven, Undead, Guards, Vardo - all were running fine - no players had dropped off the server or went inactive... it was running A-OK.

Then there was wave of DM control to take back the factions... Now had the player base been neglecting it, then fine but if you thought the movers and shakers were getting a bit big for their boots (and that is not the reason AFAIK) then either a quiet talk on the virtues of moderation and letting the other kids play or backing another player to step up makes sense.

Chomski got booted and the guards factions floundered for a long while (AND I believe the driver on that one was Dagris was in the sourcebook and not Jarovich so it was shaken up to make it fit the book), the undead faction was shaken up (I believe Tat and one of the other Vamps got more or less manipulated by the GMs out of the seat of control) and Jimmy was kicked out of the Vardo when business had realistically been as good in ages.

Its trending back towards player control and guess what? Life is returning to the factions... but even then players have to run side factions NOT directly controlled by the DMs - Cult of the Blood God for instance.

I was the DM during most of these events, and you aren't aware of everything going on. These werent examples of DM's trying to seize control. Your not talking about a server being Dynamic, these are completly different issues. If you want to talk about DM controlled factions thats a different subject to be gotten into, but theres a reason for that and despite the fact I want dynamism I also want DM's to be able to control factions- PC's should be allowed to hold responsibilities but there needs to be someone holding the reigns incase things get out of hand.

I also want REALISTIC and Sensible changes that don't sacrifice the setting, not change for the sake of it. Example- Moloch would have to be damn crazy to make war on the humans. Are you JOKING? He's not a moron. I don't even consider that a possibility.

Then again, I can always return to the DM team and make that happen personally...maybe it's time to ask. I am enjoying a players freedom to say what I want though... example... Moloch would HAVE TO BE STUPID TO MAKE WAR ON THE HUMANS. Ahh that feels good.
-

In any case the last thing I want people to do is blame the Dev Team or the DM's- they're not being controlling, they really aren't. They're some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Part of the problem may be you never get to talk to them, because alot of the Dev's live in Europe. I've had the opportunity to though, and they're nice people who're willing to work with you- but they are also really busy. I wasn't really trying to make a point in my post, just express myself and hopefully, learn to understand it.

[Helaman]

I wasnt privy to the events and not part of any faction except the guards in any way but all three factions moved from player to DM control in the same time period and my post based on comments I got from players in that faction at the time in tells etc. If three factions were out of whack - the reason for the change (ie DM control was definetly needed) then what can I say apart from my original post.

Maybe its not the Devs who moved that one... if so, once again, my apologies.  And this aint a personal attack on the DMs'

I'll stop posting on this - There is a bit of defensiveness here - it was feedback, if those in position to know, KNOW that my or other comments are off target because we don't know the facts then just take that down and move on and see if there is any feedback here that is helpful.

[k_moustakas]

I agree with bud.

Actually, less loot makes people run around looking for loot. Eventually they get tired and do them beetles or the rats.
If I want to buy something that costs 6k, I will find 6k. If the big dungeon gives me 1k, I will have to go around and do 3-4 more.

By the way, a bit irrelevant. What's up with the werewolf cave being high spawn on the first area and low spawn on the second? They spawn differently?

[kenpen]

I agree with bud.

Actually, less loot makes people run around looking for loot. Eventually they get tired and do them beetles or the rats.
If I want to buy something that costs 6k, I will find 6k. If the big dungeon gives me 1k, I will have to go around and do 3-4 more.

By the way, a bit irrelevant. What's up with the werewolf cave being high spawn on the first area and low spawn on the second? They spawn differently?

The spawn at the werewolf cave has done odd things as long as I've been playing here. I don't go there anymore, so I don't really know what's changed. Does the boss ever spawn? You used to be able to occasionally find a blade of the cattle or something at high spawn. I don't imagine there's much to be found there anymore.

[failed.bard]

  Early on (when the thread was still on topic), there were quite a few people who mentioned their frustration at their inability to make any real changes in game.  I probably have a different opinion on this than most, and, most likely, a different opinion from my own of two weeks ago.

  Yes, the feeling that you're not able to make any changes is frustrating, both in character, and out of character, but people have to remember that this is Ravenloft.  Imagine Strahd's frustration at always falling just short of his goal.  Even of those that are "good", those that are weaker willed quickly fall to despair over their inability to change things, to save those dearest to them, or to bring light to the darkness that is Barovia.
  Much of the frustration players feel would be felt to an even greater extent by their characters.  Frustration can lead to desperation, and desperation most times lead people down paths they would not normally take.  The Dark Powers tempt and corrupt, and most times the key to their temptations is the desire for the power to change things, or to control them, for good or ill.

  I had more to add, but I can't think of what it was at the moment.  Back in game for planning the great escape now, I think.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I thank you all for the feedback.

Addressing the main topic, we generally work by the philosophy that the realism should be implemented to the degree that it further the immersion instead of hurting the player. Of course, since the player varies greatly from case to case, this is arbitrary, but we try to judge what will feel limiting to those with mainly roleplay in mind.

Immersion, to me atleast, is also largely dependent on a logical coherence between cause and effect. It encourages you to think in-character, rather than game mechanics. Additionally, if there's no consequence and no priorities to be made, it can quickly turn into vanity. You could use the recent implementation of the encumbrance system as an example. If carrying heavy encumbrance made no differentiation between carrying two times your normal limit and ten times that, there's little reason not to - you could say the game engine somewhat encourages you to - but it foils the experience of an in-character logic.

I think Icono has hit the nail on the head quite well. I realise that the direction we are moving in might not appease all - but that would be utopian. What benefits one style of play is most likely going to hurt another. Our aim has always been for the immersive, atmospheric, deep roleplay. Saying that we aren't true to DnD makes little sense. The premise of DnD has always been to largely let groups define themselves what they want the game to be. On the other hand, you could say we are true to the Ravenloft principles of roleplay, but first and foremost, we are true to our own.

Regarding the loot, as a note, the loot rates haven't changed within the last month at least. The experienced change could either be more players adventuring or the factor of randomness. The items pulled from the stores haven't been pulled from the loot tables either. They remain the same.

The loot rate hasn't even really changed for the last year - but a bug that was causing it to generate too much loot was corrected. When the bug was corrected, it quite possibly left the settings on specific treasure spawns too low. We are intending to increase the loot rates, but it all takes time.



We could likely also achieve more if we allowed more freely for persistent changes and PCs taking up roles, but it introduce a plethora of other issues in it's wake. First and foremost, we can't all have characters in top posts or it would turn awkward. Second, it'll take a lot of time implementing the changes it would cause - likely much more time than we have at hand. Third, it introduces an increased problem of timezones. If the Burgomaster of Vallaki was in the European timezone, all US roleplay revolving him would be impractical if not halt completely. Fourth, it can, and often has, left the world and people in a void when the player behind a central PC (or even NPC) feels to take a break or have real life issues taking him/her away from the game. Fifth (and I promise, final for now) it has to fit into the greater balance of the game. It might be that a powerful mage could turn the Vistani camp where newcomers arrive into a burning hotspot of devilish beings, but it would break the experience for most everyone else. Someone could burn down the Lady's Rest, but it would cause us to loose the great roleplay generating aspect it has, being a central meeting point.

All that said, we are not against persistent changes, but it has to be done as a cooperation between what's in character, the current world and what plots that currently are running, but also with the general experience and balance of play in mind.

I'd suggest, rather than remove all items for a new player to save for and aspire towards purchasing, consider instead allowing some items sold that allow something to be worked and saved towards before that level of total immersion where you know IC crafters or become one.  It gives the new player something to look forward to and doesn't detract from crafting aspects since the /best/ will always be crafted.

I think this is an excellent idea It all takes time implementing though, but I'll have it in mind. The issue was, sort of, that we couldn't just make craftable items more powerful than those available in stores, lest it would become all too powerful.

[dutchy]

problem loot: its low special items are rare......tad to rare

solution: raise the bar a bit, dont know how many folks we totaly have playing on the server during the day, but all in all its ALOT


problem encumbere: good idea less good executed, due to this problem no one goes far why? cause when you die your doomed.

solution: dunno but you guys are working on it no doubt.



problem: moral is low, due to recent changes the server seems more about giving players a hard time then to actually get by and have fun, due to certain problems, dm's dont hang me but your a little bit the cause of this to, not all quests have to be about murdering a party, you can help folks to.

solution: its a horror server i agree partly on giving us a hard time its part of the world, with the recent added systems  adjust the quests a little to give folks more of survival rate, adjust loot in chests when you make them go to a dungeon or somthing like that? also for the moral maybe have a festivety for 2 days in the name of the count? poeple like those like a huge fair or somthing?


problem: exluded   i somtimes look around me and see the same people get quests or "special treatment" they ask for a dm and suddenly 3 are avialable, shouldnt that for everyone?   i shall not name names  as thats not my style.

solution: easy give everyone a chance, i know its vacation time server is crowded and we all have favorites but do try more to run stuff for newbies lower classes etc etc, this also might  help in the moral problem.


how i feel about it all, ive started here ive played many servers all kept me busy for a small period then i got bored caused some riot got banned or left *watches people gasp* yes im an ass in general, this server somehow grabbed my atention and i stuck with it, large player base good rp rather perfect for someone like me   i act server reacts.
time passed and you get to see the flaws alas i see new systems beeing made while the seroundings can use an upgrade, persistand world yes but certain npc's can die  or replaced, il pick an example...........uhm........the crypt that has alot of undead for it good for lowbies  where the shadows are (i always forget the name)  towards it is a cave.   FRIGGIN BRILLIANT why? i walk in somtimes i run into vamps.....some other time i run into ogres, another time undead.       thats change thats diversety  i dont think anyone hates that cave always a suprise, i'd like to see more of such things.
my point is at first this server is all new, after awhile like all servers  its the same everyday, luckely we got alot of active dms that do a  good job of providing the extra touch to an adventure.   but such caves or areas would be a great add on








i know this is kind of a blunt post, its not to bitch or trow rocks at anyone, its simply how i observe it, as asked i gave what i think is wrong AND solutions.



my whole bag of fang      -------------------Tagdar------------------

[superman300038]

I also want REALISTIC and Sensible changes that don't sacrifice the setting, not change for the sake of it. Example- Moloch would have to be damn crazy to make war on the humans. Are you JOKING? He's not a moron. I don't even consider that a possibility.

    That is very very very true.  I am a fan of 'more realistic' also so I suppose I gave a poor example.  I completely agree with what you said.

[KoopaFanatic]

Someone could burn down the Lady's Rest, but it would cause us to loose the great roleplay generating aspect it has, being a central meeting point.

You know, at first I was going to agree with this statement, but then it occurred to me this could be a great long-term plot.  People are hanging out at the Lady's Rest one evening when the building catches on fire.  There's a mad dash to get everyone out safely, and the building is a total loss.  It's reduced to a smoldering spot on the ground.  Everyone despairs for somewhere to go.  Bianca and Radu mope around and find other employment.  Eventually some mysterious benefactor takes it upon himself to rebuild it.  Postings go up around town offering good fang for oak planks delivered to the site.  PC carpenters pitch in to help.  Over the course of a few in-game months the Lady's Rest takes shape again.  (Maybe a different layout, maybe identical )  Then there's a grand re-opening party culminating in a werewolf attack. 

What caused the fire?  Were there any casualties?  Who paid to rebuild the place?  Why?  Something like that could have the potential for great fun and really shake things up for a while.  It would have a big impact on the PC community, but wouldn't be a setting-breaking event like a war between Dvergeheim and Vallaki.

[penny]

*looks at the above post* See that? That's open-mindedness and creativity at work. I feel that, from Soren's statements, the Devs/DMs are too worried about what might happen. It might just turn out great, and yet these things are shot down right away. I feel that the server would greatly benefit from more open-mindedness on the part of the Devs/DMs. Instead of rejecting something, why not think and see where it could go? Koopa's post seems like a great idea, something that could open up a great many avenues never opened up before in Ravenloft RP.

[archonzero]

  I'll take a page from another PW server I used to play on.  There was a moment the player base decided to delve into a very PC only driven plot.  They desired to build a trading post community, which in turn required players to invest supplies and materials to the cause.  Mining stone, metals of all sorts, providing lumber, smithing tools, hunters and trappers would gather foods and hides for leatherworkers to fashion into needed materials to provide the supplies to the working force that sought to build up the trading post.  Not to mention there was a need to hire mercenary soldiers to provide security to the jobsite while it was under construction.  Once it was completed, there was also a need to fill positions of authority, sheriff, shop keeps, store clerks, etcetera.  Most of which PCs ended up taking the roles on themselves.  Not to mention the reasons and motives behind those that took interest in investing their time and energy to such a project.  As well the roleplay that was involved between the players.  DMs were picked up for arbitrary means and more or less to act as narrator for NPC interaction, to witness important meetings, to mediate the interaction between PCs so that no cheesing or powergaming came into play to ruin the plot in question.

  This was done under the stamp of approval of course, so the direction of the small town came to fruition with the devs interacting with the PCs to bring the setting into the PW.  Bearing the fruits of labor by the PCs with a whole hearted job well done.  Of course, eventually the plot changed course and the town became a smouldering pit of ruin when the planar fabric of the Material realm was torn open a gateway to the Abyssal realm.. but still from what I had learned the event itself in the year or so it took to come to being was well worth the effort.. and it became a part of history and story for new players to learn about, as well a dangerous place to travel to.  I believe it was DM access only much like Castle Ravenloft is, simply due to the dangerous nature of the demonic entities that lingered in it's vicinity.  IE it was heavily guarded and trespassing was prevented.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

  I'll take a page from another PW server I used to play on.  There was a moment the player base decided to delve into a very PC only driven plot.  They desired to build a trading post community, which in turn required players to invest supplies and materials to the cause.  Mining stone, metals of all sorts, providing lumber, smithing tools, hunters and trappers would gather foods and hides for leatherworkers to fashion into needed materials to provide the supplies to the working force that sought to build up the trading post.  Not to mention there was a need to hire mercenary soldiers to provide security to the jobsite while it was under construction.  Once it was completed, there was also a need to fill positions of authority, sheriff, shop keeps, store clerks, etcetera.  Most of which PCs ended up taking the roles on themselves.  Not to mention the reasons and motives behind those that took interest in investing their time and energy to such a project.  As well the roleplay that was involved between the players.  DMs were picked up for arbitrary means and more or less to act as narrator for NPC interaction, to witness important meetings, to mediate the interaction between PCs so that no cheesing or powergaming came into play to ruin the plot in question.

  This was done under the stamp of approval of course, so the direction of the small town came to fruition with the devs interacting with the PCs to bring the setting into the PW.  Bearing the fruits of labor by the PCs with a whole hearted job well done.  Of course, eventually the plot changed course and the town became a smouldering pit of ruin when the planar fabric of the Material realm was torn open a gateway to the Abyssal realm.. but still from what I had learned the event itself in the year or so it took to come to being was well worth the effort.. and it became a part of history and story for new players to learn about, as well a dangerous place to travel to.  I believe it was DM access only much like Castle Ravenloft is, simply due to the dangerous nature of the demonic entities that lingered in it's vicinity.  IE it was heavily guarded and trespassing was prevented.

(out of personal interest, what PW was that?)

I wouldn't mind things like this if it isn't imposing on all others experience. But again, it takes development time. We are trying to some extend cater for strong movements within the playerbase when it makes sense in relation to the overall design, like with the recently implemented Ezrite faction, but often, we've also experienced how these things fade all too quickly, leaving ghost areas that's just distorting the experience and ultimately, putting claim on development time that could have been dedicated to more lasting implementations that catered a broader audience. This is a major reason as to why we are cautious.

Even so, I do in fact agree that we could perform better in leaving more responsibilities in the hands of players, especially faction wise, but I think we'll all accomplish more by focusing on what can be done with what we have readily available and make the story mainly manifest itself through roleplay and the systems we have in place for it.

Someone could burn down the Lady's Rest, but it would cause us to loose the great roleplay generating aspect it has, being a central meeting point.

You know, at first I was going to agree with this statement, but then it occurred to me this could be a great long-term plot.  People are hanging out at the Lady's Rest one evening when the building catches on fire.  There's a mad dash to get everyone out safely, and the building is a total loss.  It's reduced to a smoldering spot on the ground.  Everyone despairs for somewhere to go.  Bianca and Radu mope around and find other employment.  Eventually some mysterious benefactor takes it upon himself to rebuild it.  Postings go up around town offering good fang for oak planks delivered to the site.  PC carpenters pitch in to help.  Over the course of a few in-game months the Lady's Rest takes shape again.  (Maybe a different layout, maybe identical )  Then there's a grand re-opening party culminating in a werewolf attack. 

What caused the fire?  Were there any casualties?  Who paid to rebuild the place?  Why?  Something like that could have the potential for great fun and really shake things up for a while.  It would have a big impact on the PC community, but wouldn't be a setting-breaking event like a war between Dvergeheim and Vallaki.

But in the meantime, newcomers won't arrive at a spot of activity and getting right into the roleplay - the low levels won't have a place to rest near their common activities, and will possibly seek elsewhere - people would move in all directions looking for a new place to hangout, consequently having much less frequent rendezvous etc. etc. If we are to avoid these effects, we have to dedicate even more development time adjusting the rest of the setup, and we frankly run out of time. But as said, we are in no way against any form of persistent changes, it just needs consideration. Persistent plots have often been incorporated into even the most central places like the Western Outskirts, but it just have to be mindful of the intrusion on the core elements of the design. I've seen plenty of servers trying to have their selling point being a completely IC driven, rapidly changing world, but it most often ends up in a half-developed chaos without direction and consistency, and ultimately, an empty server.

Of course, it is all speculations, and we might be wrong, but we have to trust our own judgement in this. It's what made this server - and far the most PWs initiated don't ever make that cut. All our experience tells us that you have to plan the design carefully to make it really succeed. We aren't just stubborn, or we wouldn't have the strong community we have the honor of taking part in today.

Have no doubt, we are constantly looking for ways to improve roleplayers experience. I only wish you would have some faith in our judgement too...

[penny]

But in the meantime, newcomers won't arrive at a spot of activity and getting right into the roleplay - the low levels won't have a place to rest near their common activities, and will possibly seek elsewhere - people would move in all directions looking for a new place to hangout, consequently having much less frequent rendezvous etc. etc.

What about the Morninglord Temple? Is there something wrong with it?

[Lyrithean]

But in the meantime, newcomers won't arrive at a spot of activity and getting right into the roleplay - the low levels won't have a place to rest near their common activities, and will possibly seek elsewhere - people would move in all directions looking for a new place to hangout, consequently having much less frequent rendezvous etc. etc.

What about the Morninglord Temple? Is there something wrong with it?

It's old and decrepid and the wallpaper is peeling?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

But in the meantime, newcomers won't arrive at a spot of activity and getting right into the roleplay - the low levels won't have a place to rest near their common activities, and will possibly seek elsewhere - people would move in all directions looking for a new place to hangout, consequently having much less frequent rendezvous etc. etc.

What about the Morninglord Temple? Is there something wrong with it?

Wrong how? I'm not sure you're getting my point. I'm not trying to discuss specific plot ideas and their persistent changes on the module, but looking to portray the complexity of making these changes to key elements of the server.

Nonetheless, I suppose in the regards of the Lady's Resting Place, it could also be more subjective factors, such as the general appeal of an inn, the tavern cosiness to make a sharp contrast to the imposing wild, having a more diversity in the hub zone (both the religious and more casual approach), etc. etc. In the same regard, it isn't just random that people start out nearby a Vistani camp either - it has aspirations to the artistic impression and ambiance. The first impression is often essential to whether new players want to stay and how they'll approach it.

But then again, I think we are starting to derail too much if we are to persue specific plot ideas to this extend. As I've already said, I'm not trying to argue against any changes, but only to promote some understanding of why we do as we do, the circumstances under which we create the persistent manifestation of the world and the priorities we have to make as developers. It's there for you to take to heart - but beyond this point, I'm starting to feel that it's getting too much like having to persuade you into why we can justify our own way of providing all these things for you. I'm honestly having troubles comprehending how you could feel let down.

[ThAnswr]

But in the meantime, newcomers won't arrive at a spot of activity and getting right into the roleplay - the low levels won't have a place to rest near their common activities, and will possibly seek elsewhere - people would move in all directions looking for a new place to hangout, consequently having much less frequent rendezvous etc. etc.

What about the Morninglord Temple? Is there something wrong with it?

Wrong how? I'm not sure you're getting my point. I'm not trying to discuss specific plot ideas and their persistent changes on the module, but looking to portray the complexity of making these changes to key elements of the server.

Nonetheless, I suppose in the regards of the Lady's Resting Place, it could also be more subjective factors, such as the general appeal of an inn, the tavern cosiness to make a sharp contrast to the imposing wild, having a more diversity in the hub zone (both the religious and more casual approach), etc. etc. In the same regard, it isn't just random that people start out nearby a Vistani camp either - it has aspirations to the artistic impression and ambiance. The first impression is often essential to whether new players want to stay and how they'll approach it.

But then again, I think we are starting to derail too much if we are to persue specific plot ideas to this extend. As I've already said, I'm not trying to argue against any changes, but only to promote some understanding of why we do as we do, the circumstances under which we create the persistent manifestation of the world and the priorities we have to make as developers. It's there for you to take to heart - but beyond this point, I'm starting to feel that it's getting too much like having to persuade you into why we can justify our own way of providing all these things for you. I'm honestly having troubles comprehending how you could feel let down.

You're either up way too early or way too late.   

[Nefensis]

I think players were happier before, i like the craft system and all but it shouldnt be what this game is all about. Id rather get my soul devoured slowly by evil temptations then worry about what smith is online to make me a sword. I feel right now maybe it's because it's new and all but it's such a conscious effort to craft, that there is very little light left for the rest, the Ravenloft.  Granted there has been MANY new plots and a great DM presence as of late, lots of PCs either don't want to hear about the craft system because they are fed up with it (mind you they have all their gear) or they are obsessed with it to the point of trying to master each and one of them like this is EVE online or WoW. The main focus is MOSTLY on the craft system at this moment, maybe that's why i feel a bit bummed out.

My biggest realization is that the craft system is in constant need of something, items, personal etc. It's a constant goal yes but i think should be a second worry, the Vardo about now is absolutely obsessed with it, Canon wise i'm not sure it should be that way but eh what do i know. I would like to see more people with background value get into the crafting and have everyone else rely on them. I don't understand why suddently all the smith, leatherworker and brewers NPCs population all decided to take their retirement overnight. It's nearly a burden on PC crafters, to try and get away from the mine and do something else, otherwise i get bitched at by players because they arent getting their orders fast enough. This aint McDonalds i feel like replying sometimes. Realistically it should take more than a few days to make a full suit of armor.

[Rex]

I think more players were happier when the Vault imploded and everyone was on equal ground for once, then what they were before Crafting was implemented.  Goes into a long list of feed back........

To tired now and still working on a set of plans.  Maybe later.

~Rex

[Chrisman888]

.....  So who get's to burn the inn?


*Coughs points to self*

[archonzero]

  YES.. Marrok FTW!

  But back to the topic at hand.

  I enjoy the realism additives, though I do feel they are still beta additions that need tweaking.  Understanding the process of implementation and effect of new things to finally catch on and settle.  Before rocking the boat!  I can agree that perhaps liquidating things from the stores the moment something is introduced may not have been the easiest transition for everyone.  It could have been done in a more IC fashion, by setting a number on the stock supply to dwindle.   

  example - shop used to sell cure lights and cure serious potions at listed prices unlimited stock.  Shop changes to reflect crafting system introduction by listing same potions available with a limited supply of xx amount.  IG DMs can add detail to these effective changes by having caravans ambushed by rebels stealing the supplies for their own efforts, thouls, neuri attacks, bandits, Ogres, etcetera.  Giving the players something that they can look into even if only player generated with some DM support to offer evidence of such things.  Then once the crafting system is tweaked enough so the bugs or system is in full swing.. The potion supply could be diminished to very limited amount, say less than 50 bottles (per server reset) or whichever figure the Devs wish it to be.  This still gives players who are not herbalists some degree of purchase, doesn't force players to raid dungeons for knucklebones to trade for potions. 

  Soren as for the server that did that event it was on the City of Arabel PW.  The event in question was before my time there, though I definitely saw the ruins and learned the lore of the event, as well some of the characters involved with it's rise and fall.

  I like the new changes, though with the exception of the encumbrance rule.  Mostly due to the fact it's quite common most players are carrying 75-90% of their max weight in gear.  Even with eight magic bags it doesn't help much as there's always something else you can conceivably need to carry.  This is in no way to say yes for persistant storage, if it was feasible to do and not create increased lag then I wouldn't mind it as an option.  But as it is most players carry everything that they need in order to survive, instead of having a place to keep it.

  Though I do agree too much realism takes away from the game factor and makes it more akin to those games that seem more like farming systems rather than role playing experiences.  So I do empathize that the devs are working their best to find a happy medium between both worlds.  Lets not jump up an down on the subject, but creatively give our feedback, let them know what we do like and appreciate as well offer constructive criticism on what isn't working for the community.  That way we do not come across as sounding ungrateful for the selfless work and dedication these people have done to share the vision of this great setting and PW with us.

  *counts the bag of coins*  I think thats the lot of em!   

[Ruxandra]

... Nothing happens in Barovia, ever...

A major part of that is a failing of the material, a minor part is the server's. Ravenloft (as in the printed material) was never intended to be an actual ongoing campaign setting in any form, but merely an accessory. Your PC gets sucked in from elsewhere, does a little tour around and eventually dies or gets out. That's why almost every domain is horribly unrealistically written in terms of logic and reality, it's not meant to be lived in, just experienced. No one can really believe in any sort of realistic way that Barovia would exist for hundreds of years in perpetual statis and no one is going to ~catch on~ to anything.

That's the failing of trying to turn something that was meant to be an event, into a life. It doesn't translate horribly well into a persistant world view. Progress is halted and stunted by the mystical hands of God and everybody is forced to derp themselves mentally.

People who feel nothing can change or nothing they do matters are right to feel so. Sure, there are events, but afterward, the status quo gets brought out and everybody is forced to get inline. I didn't mind so much when there was a reason to busy myself with other things, but even the other things got taken away pretty much making me just sit around RPing to no real effect other than to hear myself talk. I realised it was just a big ol' hamster wheel and that I didn't like hamster wheels much.

[Doom]

Not necessarily the case, the Demiplane of Dread is on the cusp of the reneissance and no ones quite sure what it's gonna do... in reality the campaign setting is at a really unstable period, on the cusp of the TOUD (time of unparalleled darkness) as well as many mundane political changes- the 'legal' lords of Lamordia and Mordent are close to dying of old age, which may drastically change the situation. Azalin is doing. . . whatever the hell it is he's doing, Malocchio is just waiting for a chance to strangle Eva and escape Invidia, and Dementileu is on the verge of peasent revolution. Richeleumonts Darklord is gearing up to release her plauge of wererats, Vlad Drakov is due for another military campaign The "civilized" world is teetering on the brink of unimaginable change- few domains aren't set up for a domino effect of wtf.

The problem is theres no capitalization on it. The TOUD was never actually in the books so. . . I dunno, there seems to be a sense that if it wasn't detailed in the source books we can't do it, it's something i've talked with other DM's about before and may bare discussion with the whole team.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Part of the reason for the terms is also because we are still in a beta stage that's under heavy development. The crafting system is undeniably still raw, but the premise for perfecting it is having a wide usage of it. The treasure setup is still to be tuned. The ideal setup for factions is still to be evaluated. We have to, atleast to a degree, give these things some priority before overhauling the fundamentation of their usage completely.

But let me reiterate, we are not against persistent, even drastical changes, but we all have to accept the terms. Building a PW isn't just something you casually do - atleast not if you want a coherent experience that balance both in character story and the structure of the gameplay.

I would love if we could work together in this and drawing benefit from eachother. The idea of perfectly in character driven world is an illusion - we as individuals decide what we set in motion. If players could help initiate things that serves a general module enhancing purpose as much as being a personal story - help make our progression a part of the roleplay - all sides would win from it. I admit that achieving this might be a matter of us as DMs and developers to invite more to these things, but then again, I also know that it is happening and has been many times.

Ironicly, perhaps, but I think that a large part of why many don't feel involved in a dynamic process is that it in fact currently happens too quickly to manifestate itself within a broader audience. Many faction related things have resulted in persistent changes to the server - but letting it be too in character driven has likely resulted in a limited effect, because the general server impact wasn't sufficiently minded. We do have places like the one mentioned in City of Arabel, but because they aren't incorporated in our design, I don't think many realise they are there. We are, in fact, in the process of evaluating this and have been before the initiation of this topic.

You're either up way too early or way too late.   

Way too late... Bloody insomnia, good I atleast can keep myself occupied with the discussions on these forums

[archonzero]

  Keep in mind though Soren, it from what I know.. took a lot and I mean a lot of resources and time spent by the players, both in roleplaying as well as materials to provide.  I agree that factions should have ultimately a DM in charge of the movement, even if the DM allows a "considerate and motivated" PC to run the organization it should still have a DM there to mandate things and make sure it runs smoothly and doesn't upset the community in an overtly negative fashion.  IE allowing to much OOC driven issues to cross into IC an vice versa.  Ultimately though some factions could do with a bit more regulation of the ranks so to say.  That way one faction ultimately doesn't become unbalanced in power, or to say the least unbalanced beyond the limitations of the power it should roughly have. 


  Now this may seem like I'm being particular picky in a fashion, but I'm not intentionally picking on any particular groups.  I do need to cite examples for this.  In the subject of realism versus game. 

  Does it make sense that a Militia, or military for that question.  Have multiple characters of levels 8 or higher?

  In the sense of power levels for the currently player base, I would say it probably does, in a realism sense, not really.

  Why would a level 16 warrior who's in the militia take orders from a level 8 warrior who's in Vallaki's military.  Sure he's got bars on his shoulders, He's native and holds rank.  Wouldn't the lvl 16 warrior already out class him martially, in melee, tactical knowledge and experience.  Quite so.  As well it wouldn't make sense that a mid to high level character would be in the position that is held by a peasant farmer (which is pretty much what a militia is) or someone who should technically be level 5 or less.. they're conscripts not professionals in any manner.   

  Now the same goes for clergy of faith based factions, the hierarchy is typically evaluated based upon by the level of devotion in faith.  So there "should" be limitations or caps on the levels within the ranks of the religious factions as well as the positions available to be filled.  Just as well the Vardo or any thieves/assassins guild should have a cap for positions available as well the levels in which they can attain.

  I realize that many will argue against this, and in a sense rightfully so.  But then in a PnP or realism sense, those that reach a point in their path, career, faith/power, etcetera come to point where they generally...
A> strike out on their own
B> retire to raise a family, start a business, or
C> die off.

  Now one would think that after years and years of service, that same lvl 16 warrior in the miltia, who's quite obviously an outlander, wouldn't get disillusioned by the fact that he/she would never gain the same recognition as a native soldier?  I think he would have moved on to find something more worthwhile, even if as a freelancer who held a morale code.

  Yes I'm sure there will be lifers in any given career, but generally those lifers plateau at a level in their trade/profession or skill.  There's just simply nothing more to experience that can get them further, without diversifying and taking a fresh start on things.  This is where the DM of the faction should come in to regulate the ranks of their faction, to maintain the structure and power levels so that it doesn't grow to an unbalanced point and upsets the power levels to dramatically between the factions and across the setting.

example Faction

Ice Cream Bandits of the Rainbow

1x Leader PC - lvl cap 16+ range
1x 2nd in command - lvl cap 14-16
2-3x Elites - lvl cap 10-15
3-6x regulars - lvl cap 5-11
4-8x recruits - lvl cap 1-6

A sample Militia/Soldier faction could have

1x leader - lvl 9-12    (Commanderr would be lvl 12-18)
1x 2nd - lvl 6-10   (Captain lvl 10-15)
2-5x veterans - lvl 5-8   (elite soldier lvl 6-10)
3-6x regulars - lvl 3-6   (veteran soldier lvl 4-7)
4-10x recruits - lvl 1-4   (regular soldier lvl 3-6)


  Now these are just sample ideas .. some factions would have higher or lower level limitations, the higher the level limits the fewer in number there should be per faction.  Just some thoughts on realism vs gameplay and how they could be applied to factions as well.  Still the levels are flexible enough to allow growth, though the players that move into these factions would also be aware that they would have to retire once they get too.. ambitious? (experienced)   It would slow down level grinding just to be more powerful, as well requiring more organization or group activity to handle larger more difficult problems.

note - sorry I had to add a few coins to my pile. ^^