Realism vs Game - feedback

[Nefensis]

Lately the server has felt many changes, creating a rather dynamic and player driven economy. I'm posting this thread in regard of the community's desires. Both old and new players are invited to post their feelings about the changes, but i do invite you to post only your personal opinions and feelings, disregards other's way of playing and please focus on your own experience on the POTM server.

I've played here for a bit over three years, going through as many as four different death system, a loot reduction of 400% in value (estimated), the introduction of many new rules that outline many unfavorable behaviors to be avoided. Taking in consideration that POTM is based off the game Dungeons and Dragons third edition (or is it 3.5?), playable on Neverwinter's night engine.

Many introduction of new factors, such as the usage of rations to regain HP at rest, have led close the gap between a game and reality. Some factors that some might find bothersome and outright annoying when it comes to playing the game. Let's face it, not everyone plays the game in the same way. Some enjoy dungeon raiding, others enjoy roleplaying every day task such as tavern personal or merchants, bards, thieves etc. Where PnP (pen and paper) lacked the deeper/lighter side of roleplay and a enjoyed a higher rate of dice rolling (monster killing etc), NwN's engine allows for everyone to enjoy a bit of the game in their own way.

Playing in a setting such as Ravenloft involves new situations that are not found in a Forgotten Realm setting such as found on servers (FRC, Amia etc).  Once the player has decided he wished to try out a server such as ours, they are faced with a cultural shock. A new player will ask me : How's the loot? -> Well there's no loot really. How's the leveling rate? -> Well it's extremely slow.  How easily do you find magical weapons? -> Well you don't, they don't exist/rarer than pope shit. A cultural shock that turns off many. Why do many others remain? Speaking personally i would say gladly that the mature playerbase keeps me here, the quality of the roleplay and the possibilities are infinite on such a well scripted server.

Lately i took a look around and found myself surrounded by crafters, it made me happy that players finally had the choices to do some things on their own, to create their own economy, to have some fun with the hard work they did. But then suddently it dawned to me, not everyone enjoys what is going on. The changes are not only affecting the server in a positive manner, they are affecting the server entirely, stretching it in every direction, which isn't always what's desired. Once a player that wished to go adventuring, he could. Form a party, go off, get some xp, loot, adventure, sometimes a DM would hop on the band wagon and run them out of a dungeon, good fun. But now? Now there's barely any loot to be found ( a common melody in the past months, which was semi fixed for two weeks and suddently toned down without warning.) Even for killing creatures that (on PnP) should have a somewhat treasure. A shadow dragon guarding a painting and a chamber pot made me rather sad. A hoard of rats worth over two thousand golds, found in the trash and found in selling the bodies. A castle made of ice and magic, filled with warm cloaks and flint n tinder. As a PnP player i would have long doused my DM in Mountain Dew if he had placed us in such a situation.

Right now the server is headed toward catering to one type of player, the type the Dev team has been shaping us into and isn't necessarily the type of players we want to be. I love to organize a tournament of dirty one eye, but i love raiding a dungeon for some fat loot. Here i sit wondering, maybe the people whom decides, have forgotten what playing was like, or maybe they have a screwed vision of what the players are going through, personally i can't say i'm enjoying the past few months changes entirely, many things like the introduction of new crafts have been fantastic for roleplay and created much entertainment for one part of players. What becomes of the others? Do they all have to fit snuggly into the mold? I hate being told i'm wrong when i state my feelings, i -more- than understand what the Dev team has to do and all the efforts they have put into all of this, the work of titans. I acknowledge all the factors and yes i understand how busy they are and the ungodly amount of time put into this. I suggest an additional team? A fresh breeze of ideas, a new look on old things, it wasn't all bad back then.

In ending, a bit thank you to the DMs and to the Dev team for their time, this post isn't all negative i hope, i'm not half as eloquent as most but i wouldn't have stuck around so long if i wasn't enjoying this server and a big part is because of you.

Thank you for reading.

[penny]

Don't get me wrong, I love this server, but honestly it's hard to stick with it these days. It is first and foremost an RP server but adventuring is fun too. And as it is now, there isn't much reward in adventuring. Making people work hard for a good payoff is fine. But it seems to me that the payoff has been taken away entirely. I guess what I'm trying to say is, sacrificing fun for the sake of remaining low-magic or realism does not a good server make. I feel that it is alienating some of the playerbase, like adventuring is a bad thing and you should feel dirty for doing it.

Moar phat lewts!

[Gilta]

Simply said....I love it here and the way things are becoming. [crosses fingers to score a chamberpot]
                        -Gilta-

[Ruxandra]

First off, I'll preface this by congratulating the dev team on their work. Ravenloft is a very well-made and well-thought out server from building to system to the smallest quirks and you should be proud.

However, long before my recent computer troubles that keep me off it, I had lost will to really play anymore. Some have asked why. It's a lot of things little just adding up really.

The spawning systems. While they are designed to attempt to foster a RPish environment, they really just did the exact opposite. I like a good adventure and no one could really claim I was much of a farmer. Everytime a few friends and myself gathered up and decided to actually adventure, we'd tromp out somewhere only to find near death waiting for us... The payout? Some potatoes and less coin than it took in potions to survive. Farmers pretty much ruin any attempt to do anything and make it feel worthwhile as they ran around hitting everything in about 2 hours and then ruin any attempt to do anything for the next 8. That really gets dull to me. It makes me wonder why I leave town.

Factions turned me off since it always seemed I'd have to bend characters unrealistically to fit into one. That and the max life expectancy of the average faction member seems to be level 10.

Making the server craft-driven is something I've never liked on other servers. This usually just ensures you will never ever find a single interesting or useful thing in a treasure chest, ever again (death to the rogue class!). Yes, it is a very attractive thing for devs to do since it pretty much ensures less work for them (no need to make items for loot tables, just tell them to craft everything!) Slowly, I saw this happening and still do just through the boards. Items hardly even close to 'overpowering' are disappearing from shops and newer players are expected to pretty much just rely on crafting only. It was already hard for non-casters to get by (not do well, just ~get by~) back in the old days when you could buy items from other players who farmed dungeons, but now I pity new characters. What does it mean in the end? Everybody is a cleric, bard, wizard or sorcerer unless you like being useless in an adventure or never plan on leaving town, which given the odds of what you're going to get out of it, is a very plausible playstyle. What's the point of a craft-driven economy when ~everybody~ is forced to be a crafter and no one adventures anyways because it's disappointing and inefficient in terms of risk vs reward? (I honestly made more gains sitting in the church w/ Ratchet or Ruxie RPing with newbies than going anywhere in terms of gain.)

I love RP though. Unfortunately, sitting around and RPing can be done elsewhere without lag, glaring fog, random crashing, disappointment and the tedium of sitting around in off hours while 99% of the server is farming for potatoes at night anyways.

Great server, but it's no longer for me I'm afraid. (Not that I seem to be able to play it anymore before crashing randomly within minutes it seems.)

[tzaeru]

Factions turned me off since it always seemed I'd have to bend characters unrealistically to fit into one. That and the max life expectancy of the average faction member seems to be level 10.

Making the server craft-driven is something I've never liked on other servers. This usually just ensures you will never ever find a single interesting or useful thing in a treasure chest, ever again (death to the rogue class!). Yes, it is a very attractive thing for devs to do since it pretty much ensures less work for them (no need to make items for loot tables, just tell them to craft everything!) Slowly, I saw this happening and still do just through the boards. Items hardly even close to 'overpowering' are disappearing from shops and newer players are expected to pretty much just rely on crafting only. It was already hard for non-casters to get by (not do well, just ~get by~) back in the old days when you could buy items from other players who farmed dungeons, but now I pity new characters. What does it mean in the end? Everybody is a cleric, bard, wizard or sorcerer unless you like being useless in an adventure or never plan on leaving town, which given the odds of what you're going to get out of it, is a very plausible playstyle. What's the point of a craft-driven economy when ~everybody~ is forced to be a crafter and no one adventures anyways because it's disappointing and inefficient in terms of risk vs reward? (I honestly made more gains sitting in the church w/ Ratchet or Ruxie RPing with newbies than going anywhere in terms of gain.)

So far so true. Though let me put some weight on that PoTM is still definitely the best module in existence - And I've played this silly addicting game for past 5 years. Oh yes, I was 12 years old when I went to my first RP server. And got very, very banned.

I agree on factions and in fact have had an active part in only one. Which, eventually, ended up to char resigning anyway. This is kinda disappointing since to my eye it seems like most of the interesting RP was going in factions and most quests were done for faction members. Or then it just needs awesome luck to stumble to anything interesting - To go straight with it, I'm really bored.

I liked with how things were during last Autumn. The spell and item nerfings since and other changes have in my opinion gone from relaxed fun to similar fun like Hearts of Iron is. Which is fun, for ~5 hours a week max. (Hearts of Iron = The -most- hardcore strategy game ever. Placed to WW2. Playing the game through with normal speed takes +100 IRL hours)

EDIT: Though imo the major things to irritate me still lay elsewhere than in the actual module..

[engelfire]

i think Neffy you are absolutely right in what you wrote and its good you brought this up

from my own point of view theres been an insane change in about all aspects of this module. both very good changes, and also some quite bad (in my opinion atleast)

when i started to play here few years ago, this place totally captivated me. rich background, interesting athmosphere and of course most mature players ive ever met during my relatively short period of DnD and NWN gaming. I think its fair to say that this place has shaped me towards better and classy rp ( i know i need improvement in some aspects but thats off topic)

yet, something has changed so that i dont bother doing much stuff anymore seriously. i log in to the game, full of will to rp with people, interact with world and do stuff, but for some odd reason after 15-20 minutes i just get bored, or get clueless and start to idle. i remember when i started here there were always something to do, dm's were around plenty in both euro and US time zones. now frankly im lucky if i see one dm in a month, and they are usually occupied with someone else.

perhaps part the reason for my idling is that i really seen all, then its hard even if i make new character to be all "oooh aaaaah" ic'ly when encountering the same monsters and places you seen dozens of times with other characters you know ? as discussed in other threads there should really be some ic chances to the world time to time, nothing drastic necesarily but small things and updates to situations. its really been past year and half watching new and old folk run back and forth doing the same thing over and over again

when i try to start some plots, people ignores them. for example, i tried to fuel hatred between guard/people of vallaki and elfs of deganwy, for ulterior motives but all my attempts got ignored both ic and ooc. perhaps i didnt rp it well enough then or something but to me that kind of things are let downs and only makes me idle more. why should someone do anything when all they get is ignoring emotes in response ? both guards or elfs of deganwy could have just act ic and kick vino's ass for trying something so daring. and all in all when someone tries to make a plot.. please dont ignore it ic/ooc even if it feels silly or stupid.

crafting is awesome add to this module, however, something in it makes me go "ew.. aint gonna bother with it really" i feel it as discouragin and unrewarding really. i might change my opinion once theres some real craft that mages can do, like scribing and enchanting. that crafting comunity you mentioned neffy, is a good thing, player driven economy or what it was. gives rp and stuff. though one thing id like to see is that crafting would be little more of a class related, and rp-related. it aches me when people just craft for the sake of crafting. of course there are those who have rp behind it and rp mentoring others at it, kudos to you


about loot.. hmm.. i havent done any real looting ever since it started to look like all we get is fans and flint n' tinders. its really shame since loot is one thing that keeps things exciting and going, people travel around more often and with little better morale when they know that theres some reward waiting for them. i just wonder why we cant have more items in the module, i dont mean more powerfull items, but more variety. if theres some item limit, cant we just get rid of those un needed unwanted items, and replace them with new fresh items that fits setting, and place where they are found

im just worried that if the loot tables are increased, people will farm more, and find more powerfull items on a strike of luck. i remember that once i found tainted blade with lom from a hole i actually accidentally stumbled upon (that was rather odd but awesome moment). that blade was that time very rare and extremely valuable blade. now.... its standard loot at vampire lair and everyone in undead faction is dual wielding ones... like come on dudes... that kind of weapons should be given by dm, not from rather normal spawn drop. vino has like 2 of those in his bag


so that i wrote above is no way ment as rant but my personal feels of this place, how it was when i came here, and how i view it today. no matter what happens here i aint leaving, this is still damn good place to play.

[ducky445544]

Ugh,gotta bring it up sadly...First time I came to this server,it was great.People went on adventures and got hafl-way decent loot,better then what we got now.It was also not ALL about roleplay,you could adventure as well. Now? Well,hate to say it but the server is not as fun as before..With no more good loot,and no potions in stores,plus the only good armor for druids taken out, it is REALLY hard for a newbie to get started. And now,only thing you can really do on here is roleplay. Miss the old days.

[Lyrithean]

Personally I think it's possible to nitpick something to death.

The server is great, the RP here is top-notch for the most part, the community is pretty mature, the dev team are all pretty much great people and so are the DM's. Soren's a great scripter and he's usually more then willing to step up and admit his new scripts might be a little too harsh.

However, I find after I create something decent and then stand back and start making minor adjustments here and there I can go overboard with my little adjustments. As I strive to perfect that which I created the little adjustments on a small scale don't appear to be anything bad, but once everything comes together I stand back and look at the finished product and realize that my adjustments have changed my initial creation into something nowhere close to my initial image of it. Sometimes I've completely ruined my initial project (I don't think this is the case with POTM though) most of the time it's just.. different.. and not what I wanted when I initially started, things have become overly complicated, bumps and holes in areas where there shouldn't be.

And that in a nutshell is what I think has happened, the server was already great but required a few tweaks here and there, those tweaks required more tweaks, slight changes to bring the server more in line with the image that was wanted, some things that work great on paper but not so much in practice, balances where people found ways to profit that weren't particularly fair to others. And gradually, slowly, the servers evolved into something different, and some people are obviously questioning weather what it has evolved into is what it was originally meant to be. There is nothing wrong with striving for perfection, but I believe true perfection isn't a system where things work.. for lack of a better word.. perfectly. But where the good points make you happy and the flaws aren't really a big deal.

Whats the solution? Rip out countless hours of coding and rebuild it from the ground up? From the MUD community I've seen this happen with a few games and sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't and they wind up reverting to an earlier version of the code. Continue plodding on making alterations and ignore the voices here and there? Can work, old players usually hate changes, they always have and always will, old dm's get one tracked at times, sometimes belief in the mission and where you're taking things needs to take priority. In any online community, or any community for that matter, even the most similar communities will split on what they think should be done, it happens everywhere, no one is completely the same.

Honestly, from my own experiences it boils down to this. Risk vs Reward. It was allways really risky to go anywhere before, unless you were some insane build that could manage to get 50 AC etc etc, but at least the rewards were good (sometimes too good). Now since I really can't go anywhere to XP anymore and XP is out of the equation the only reason I adventure with my character is out of boredom or to help others when they ask. Now, the reward is pretty much nothing (often going adventuring is actually exactly the opposite as you use up incredibly expensive resources and only reclaim a pittance) and if something should go wrong the process of bringing yourself or a fallen party member back to life is extremely tedious and expensive. I don't mind the new systems, smart adventuring can deal with them, but I think the scales are currently too far tipped in favor of risk and I think an increase in reward will balance things out. Bit better average loot in dungeons, maybe a bit more craft XP during crafting (slightly easier crafting will lower prices making the required amount of income from adventuring lower), backing off on the -keen effects on crafted items (since now alot of enhanced items are no longer available in stores and resources are harder to get), perhaps a supply and demand script to the shops (dunno if that's possible but basically the more you sell the less you get for it) and some sort of timecard system for job factions (so some sort of payroll can be implemented)

Either way, weather my suggestions are taken to heart, I think a bit of an increase in the reward will make everyone a bit happier.

edit Oh and Engelfire

when i try to start some plots, people ignores them. for example, i tried to fuel hatred between guard/people of vallaki and elfs of deganwy, for ulterior motives but all my attempts got ignored both ic and ooc. perhaps i didnt rp it well enough then or something but to me that kind of things are let downs and only makes me idle more. why should someone do anything when all they get is ignoring emotes in response ? both guards or elfs of deganwy could have just act ic and kick vino's ass for trying something so daring. and all in all when someone tries to make a plot.. please dont ignore it ic/ooc even if it feels silly or stupid.

There's actually several of us that were taking your plotting seriously, but we're not the type of characters that really do anything in the open and never rush. SO if you wanna continue what you were doing, then by all means do so, It would suck if after all our counterplotting and scheming to find out you'd already given up

[Doom]

First let me mimmic all of the positive points- theres so much about the servers systems I love. Especially the way you jiggered the armors so I can get 6/3 AC in banded, that just opens up a whole slew of options rather then "Fullplate, Chainshirt, Studded Leather or Padded".

Lately I havn't played much, and i'm on extended hiatus/retirement/wtf? from the DM team. I find it hard to be interested lately, though I am trying to advance plotlines with a character or two, because it all feels so. . . limited. All you can do is sit around the inn or the outskirts, talk to people, get involved with the latest transient faction event (which isn't bad mind you), or go out and kill some creatures for small capital gains over and over. Or you can power craft.

I feel . . . encased. And heavens know i've tried. I've written IC letters to the Burgomaster and sent them along to DM's, trying to get permission to run an inteirly player run fair outside the town. I've tried to organize multiple factions together to take part in events, but with no replies or no support it all falls apart. I'm not blaming the DM team. I've been a DM, I know you can't do every little thing.

Here's an interesting bit. I wrote a letter to the burgomaster asking to start a school for the priveledge in Vallaki. To my amazement I got a response, and my PC got to meet with the Burgo. After discussing it, I created a -REAL- economics and business plan charting profits, costs, and feasible pay off time for startups over a period of 10 years, as well as making allowances for book rentals and purchaes (I didn't get into housing though). I sent it to said DM. It got shut down in DEV because they weren't sure it fit the setting, or would benefit a wide enough range of players for RP purposes. All reasonable concerns, I don;t blame the Dev's.

Nothing happens in Barovia, ever. There aren't foreign invasions (Barring that one event that a limtied number of people could take part in), there aren't political shakeups, the story never advances or fluctuates despite the fact the PNP modules were all designed from the start to take the PC's along a road to eventually confront the Darklord. Naturally the basis of it being a persistant world forgoes this, but throw in the fact it's supposed to be a gothic horror server and you have a problem- gothic horror is dependent on prose and story, on plot and advancement- too much prolongement and the horror becomes blaise. The creatures of the night are supposed to inspire fear and terror, but when confornted without the framework of a story they're just monsters to mash- not necessarily a bad thing but it fails the setting.

I feel bored, uninspired, and uncaring. I log in, I see nothing interesting to do or interact with, I log out. Why stay? So I can stay on and kill some monsters and make a few hundred gold and an amulet of will? It's not impossible to make it good dungeoning, it just requires extreme repitition. Normally I wouldn't care about dungeoning, but hanging around and RPing is no fun either- when I was new it was exciting. I thought, "Yeah, i'll be the good guy to make it work. I'll learn all there is to learn, i'll challenge Strahd himself, i'll tell him what he needs to hear without judging him and give him a chance to be righteous again. I'll beat the Darkpowers themselves with amazing grace". And I almost did- I road that pony all the way to Strahd and I told him to his face he needed to let Tatyanna go because it perpetuated a cycle of misery, and that he was being controled and toyed with by forces beyond his comprehension. Then I got executed. For a while, I was even lead to believe my characters soul was doomed to wander the mists for all eternity with no afterlife awaiting it. It's never quite matched since then- i've been here long enough, I've been on all sides of the fences and I know ultimatly nothing I or anyone else does will matter.

I blame me.

Ultimatly the fault lies with me I guess. I've been here almost two years, I think. Maybe i've outgrown, maybe i've changed. Maybe I need to go. My heart yearns for things we can't have- glory, grandeur, a sense of importance to your actions and your character. A world that breaths, and sometimes it kicks you in the teeth and sometimes it raises you up. I don't feel anything compelling or adventurous from Ravenloft anymore.

But I don't want to sit here and badmouth it anymore. Thats not cool. It's no ones fault I feel the ways I do but myself. These aren't problems you can actually fix. Prisoners of the Mist is what it is, and it won't change- It's taken on it's own life, and we are just the stewards of the construct now. In any case it would be wrong to alter what so many people have worked so hard for in such a fundamental way, for one person, or a few people. I'm rambling, it's late, I hardly know what i'm saying but I wanted to get it out.

Peace, we have an awesome server.

[DM Macabre]

Just a friendly reminder: please be constructive in your feedback. Tell not just what you dislike, like, how you feel etc. but also how you would change it.

[Vespertilio]

I'd suggest, rather than remove all items for a new player to save for and aspire towards purchasing, consider instead allowing some items sold that allow something to be worked and saved towards before that level of total immersion where you know IC crafters or become one.  It gives the new player something to look forward to and doesn't detract from crafting aspects since the /best/ will always be crafted.

I've seen this done on other, fairly well balanced, servers.  It has worked in my humble opinion to give new players and crafters both, something to aspire to.  If you feel shadow armor ought to be crafted, how about a lesser version that's +2 instead of +4 that can be readily purchased.  I know Kato had been saving up for some, and know other pcs as well who were and it's a little daunting to finally save that amount in gold (not an easy task really) only to find it's been removed and my character has no way of finding anything even remotely similar.  It's appreciated I think by many leather workers, the hope that more items/recipes will be added but it may have been premature to remove the items before that was put into place?  If the crafting hasn't been augmented and the items are removed, a lot of people are pretty much left with money hard earned and nothing to spend it on.


As per factions, I think they are a fine impetus to creating tension IC and actually facilitate not only rp but add to the setting. Even so, not belonging to a faction I know I'm pretty much missing out on a lot of rp, since the only thing 'outlanders' can be assured of is tension.   I enjoy that and find it enhancing to the setting, at the same time it can be somewhat daunting at times to pretty much be excluded in character every which way because I didn't join up and my characters aren't the sort to invite themselves along by force. I'd like to feel that it's not essential to plot involvement to join a faction.  I'd say outlanders an unaffiliated pcs can still play a role, some how, someplace, now and then.

I've enjoyed being involved with crafter pcs as support, it's been a lot of fun picking herbs and helping out in other ways, I consider my pcs to be fairly self motivated and industrious, they make their own fun.  However much like other items being removed it seems that the removal of cure moderates isn't enhancing the experience but making it a lot harder for newer people to find a niche and get a foot in the door.  Again I'd suggest making herbalism crafted potions the higher end and still allow players who have not become connected a means of survival, by having some purchasable lessers, until they are.  it's always good to have things to aspire to, whether you are fresh from the mists or a well seasoned character.

[Bad_Bud]

First let me mimmic all of the positive points- theres so much about the servers systems I love. Especially the way you jiggered the armors so I can get 6/3 AC in banded, that just opens up a whole slew of options rather then "Fullplate, Chainshirt, Studded Leather or Padded".

Lately I havn't played much, and i'm on extended hiatus/retirement/wtf? from the DM team. I find it hard to be interested lately, though I am trying to advance plotlines with a character or two, because it all feels so. . . limited. All you can do is sit around the inn or the outskirts, talk to people, get involved with the latest transient faction event (which isn't bad mind you), or go out and kill some creatures for small capital gains over and over. Or you can power craft.

I feel . . . encased. And heavens know i've tried. I've written IC letters to the Burgomaster and sent them along to DM's, trying to get permission to run an inteirly player run fair outside the town. I've tried to organize multiple factions together to take part in events, but with no replies or no support it all falls apart. I'm not blaming the DM team. I've been a DM, I know you can't do every little thing.

Here's an interesting bit. I wrote a letter to the burgomaster asking to start a school for the priveledge in Vallaki. To my amazement I got a response, and my PC got to meet with the Burgo. After discussing it, I created a -REAL- economics and business plan charting profits, costs, and feasible pay off time for startups over a period of 10 years, as well as making allowances for book rentals and purchaes (I didn't get into housing though). I sent it to said DM. It got shut down in DEV because they weren't sure it fit the setting, or would benefit a wide enough range of players for RP purposes. All reasonable concerns, I don;t blame the Dev's.

Nothing happens in Barovia, ever. There aren't foreign invasions (Barring that one event that a limtied number of people could take part in), there aren't political shakeups, the story never advances or fluctuates despite the fact the PNP modules were all designed from the start to take the PC's along a road to eventually confront the Darklord. Naturally the basis of it being a persistant world forgoes this, but throw in the fact it's supposed to be a gothic horror server and you have a problem- gothic horror is dependent on prose and story, on plot and advancement- too much prolongement and the horror becomes blaise. The creatures of the night are supposed to inspire fear and terror, but when confornted without the framework of a story they're just monsters to mash- not necessarily a bad thing but it fails the setting.

I feel bored, uninspired, and uncaring. I log in, I see nothing interesting to do or interact with, I log out. Why stay? So I can stay on and kill some monsters and make a few hundred gold and an amulet of will? It's not impossible to make it good dungeoning, it just requires extreme repitition. Normally I wouldn't care about dungeoning, but hanging around and RPing is no fun either- when I was new it was exciting. I thought, "Yeah, i'll be the good guy to make it work. I'll learn all there is to learn, i'll challenge Strahd himself, i'll tell him what he needs to hear without judging him and give him a chance to be righteous again. I'll beat the Darkpowers themselves with amazing grace". And I almost did- I road that pony all the way to Strahd and I told him to his face he needed to let Tatyanna go because it perpetuated a cycle of misery, and that he was being controled and toyed with by forces beyond his comprehension. Then I got executed. For a while, I was even lead to believe my characters soul was doomed to wander the mists for all eternity with no afterlife awaiting it. It's never quite matched since then- i've been here long enough, I've been on all sides of the fences and I know ultimatly nothing I or anyone else does will matter.

I blame me.

Ultimatly the fault lies with me I guess. I've been here almost two years, I think. Maybe i've outgrown, maybe i've changed. Maybe I need to go. My heart yearns for things we can't have- glory, grandeur, a sense of importance to your actions and your character. A world that breaths, and sometimes it kicks you in the teeth and sometimes it raises you up. I don't feel anything compelling or adventurous from Ravenloft anymore.

But I don't want to sit here and badmouth it anymore. Thats not cool. It's no ones fault I feel the ways I do but myself. These aren't problems you can actually fix. Prisoners of the Mist is what it is, and it won't change- It's taken on it's own life, and we are just the stewards of the construct now. In any case it would be wrong to alter what so many people have worked so hard for in such a fundamental way, for one person, or a few people. I'm rambling, it's late, I hardly know what i'm saying but I wanted to get it out.

Peace, we have an awesome server.

But I agree... nothing changes.  It's sad.  I always enjoyed PW servers because I always felt that I could make a difference.  Maybe I could take over the world, make people my slaves.  I feel like that's not the case here, though.  There will be major events, massive werewolf attacks, rebellions, quitters, storms, and what have you, but nothing will ever actually change.  That's actually something that came to my mind the second month I was here at the server.  I thought "this server has awesome players, cool areas, and amazing scripts, but nothing ever progresses!".  What happens when a plot progresses?  The world never changes, characters just die off.  That's what happens.

I would like to see events change the world.

[DM Macabre]

And please be more specific!

For example just call for "change" is a bit blurry. Give examples what you would like to see etc.

[ThAnswr]

Just a friendly reminder: please be constructive in your feedback. Tell not just what you dislike, like, how you feel etc. but also how you would change it.

Please don't go that route.  Players are telling us what's on their minds, what they like, and what they don't like.  There are a myriad of suggestions just within the first 5 posts I've read.  They're there ...................All you have to do is listen. 

[ThAnswr]

And please be more specific!

For example just call for "change" is a bit blurry. Give examples what you would like to see etc.

Frankly, we can all sit here and endlessly suggest shaving a minute or two to the wait between rests or up the loot table content to 2 potatoes instead of 1 potato and on and on and on.  IMO, none of it will make a difference nor bring life back to this game.  And that is not what people are sayng they need. 

Strictly my opinion, POTM has gone well beyond the tweaking stage.  It has become over-engineered.  Attempts to reinvent the wheel have happened too often for tweaks.  POTM has become FUBAR. For those of you who don't know what that means, you can PM me or google it. 

Here's my suggestion:  Roll the game back to the point where it made sense, where people had a purpose, when choices could be made between adventuring and RP, when people had some control and not feel like they were being shoveled into someone else's vision of gaming, etc. 

Start by rolling the game back a year.  My best guess tells me you'll see some life in this game again. 

How does one do that?  I'm not a programmer or I'd have a technical suggestion.   

I realize a lot of people have put a lot of work into this game.  I know it hurts  when one's efforts are met with criticism instead of accolades.  However, building a protective cocoon of "you're farming too much or you're not just RP'ing the right way" will not solve the problem.  That has happened too many times in the past.  Solving the problem starts with listening, admitting a mistake was made somewhere, and not confusing motion with progress.  You can't keep blaming the player base if folks honestly want to solve the problems and move forward.   

OTOH, if folks feel no mistakes were made and it's the players fault because they just don't understand the game and how it should be played we're wasting our time. 

[Helaman]

To the Dev team:

Let.Go.

Nothing has to be rigidly controlled and santised because it doesn't fit a preconcieved idea of the setting...

Factions.

Factions were GOOD. They were ALSO PC driven, Undead, Guards, Vardo - all were running fine - no players had dropped off the server or went inactive... it was running A-OK.

Then there was wave of DM control to take back the factions... Now had the player base been neglecting it, then fine but if you thought the movers and shakers were getting a bit big for their boots (and that is not the reason AFAIK) then either a quiet talk on the virtues of moderation and letting the other kids play or backing another player to step up makes sense.

Chomski got booted and the guards factions floundered for a long while (AND I believe the driver on that one was Dagris was in the sourcebook and not Jarovich so it was shaken up to make it fit the book), the undead faction was shaken up (I believe Tat and one of the other Vamps got more or less manipulated by the GMs out of the seat of control) and Jimmy was kicked out of the Vardo when business had realistically been as good in ages.

Its trending back towards player control and guess what? Life is returning to the factions... but even then players have to run side factions NOT directly controlled by the DMs - Cult of the Blood God for instance.

Changes to the server denied by the Dev team. Not in line with the Setting.

I've seen one instance listed above here that where the Dev team turned down a potentially setting altering proposal... and its not the first I've heard of. But why can't the Dev's work with the players to find the Middle acceptable ground... "Ok, we think that this is too far...BUT what about this?" and then WORK with the player? We've seen some great examples of GM co-operation though - cock fights, poetry readings etc.

Share the vision. If it doesn't entirely fit, fine - but work with the players so they have a chance to drive something semi-permanent. If the player drops off entirely? Fine either see if another PC wants to drive it or shut it down.

Loot and XP.

A low magic, low progression server WITH emphasis on the first 10 levels (I love the new feat system for that reason) fits the setting... but to a) remove all the goodies from the stores and from the loot tables so there is nothing to give the characters the edge/benefit/feeling of achievement and b) up certain monsters to INSANE levels (A SINGLE Adult scrag has been tweaked to multiple times so that it is a challenge for a fully BUFFED level 15+... forget about groups of them or elders... or Abominations that autoknock down no save and NPC level 18 mages) to kill anyone who tries just seems harsh... "comply because there no point in trying to get ahead - the dungeon has been tweaked to kill you and the reward will not be there" SEEMS to be (and this is just me) the current policy.

And the low magic really hurts fighters... because casters CAN get ahead where fighters cannot but this is rarely the otherway around. Its not necessarily driving party-ing... also given the monsters now bypass the fighters and attack the guy with the lowest AC... it makes no sense to buff the fighter. If you want to drive low magic, low levels then outlaw magic properly - not the wishy washy current policy. Get away from the books, even if its temporary (Stradh has a brainfart or goes on Holiday and the Burgomaster has a brainfart) and look at how a policy will drive PC behaviour - be consistent in NPC persecution of known mages. As for wanting low levels so things are a threat?... what about a GM approved cap for 10th level? You want past 10th level, you gotta get the XP and then do something dangerous with the DM present. The higher you go and the greater the quest and the risk is you'll die. Thats my thoughts - others may not agree... on that - I dont think there should be a hard cap at 10th or 15th though. To the victor, the spoils.

If you still want to make it "more normal"? Low items, low levels? - be upfront with the players and let them know thats the goal over the next few months rather than squeezing them in new directions they don't understand.

I may have misread this entirely - it may not be a direction purposely driven by the Dev team but just a random result spawned by a series of unrelated changes, in which case, have a look at what it is and why some people are uncomfortable about it.

NPCs and sites

This is a tricky one... there has been some changes. Lizuca from Zachea etc... All good stuff... but maybe some rotating some merchants and faces every now and then? I've seen places shut in the Market district - open them up and shut down 1 or 2 others. Radu has died about 1000 times as did his predecessor... maybe a new security solution ? A few vardo rather than 1 battleship? Twin heavies from Vallaki?

Kudo's for the Ladies rest change, the Zeklos keep, the new caves, the boat accross the lake... and for the few months the Vallaki wall was blown up... but lets get Dvergenhiem resolved without having to tie it directly to the books etc. I 100% recognise these changes are painful to script and load and so I dont advocate constant sweeping change but it wouldnt hurt to rotate some faces and places so we have new NPC stories and sites to interact with.

***Added in response to Iconoclast***
Apologies: I had forgotten the 2 new realms opening and didnt factor in the MASSIVE amount of work that went into it - ignore a lot of my above stuff... Also the Ezrarites are a breathing example on Dev support on change... prehaps I didnt look at the big picture but more likely was looking at it from a different perspective...


PLEASE DONT GET PISSED OR FEEL UNAPPRECIATED.

Look at the passion people bring here! Look at the comments that say - WE LOVE YOUR WORK!

My feedback is just let the players change things too and to work with players as you advocate changes towards new directions or objectives... and have major events matter.

I have been here a year and *touch wood* will be here another few more... the content and quality of the server cannot be beat! Nor can the DM or Dev team.

[Serevain]

And please be more specific!

For example just call for "change" is a bit blurry. Give examples what you would like to see etc.

Mmm, the ability to permanently alter aspects of the module through plot and scheme. Such as... hell, yeah, either destroying or saving Dvergeheim. That's a helluva idle plot line. Make the ruins explorable, elder evils being unleashed from the turned soil, hordes of dead dwarf zombies attacking the city, SOMETHING.

[Iconoclast]

Hmm...and all of this plea for more dynamic change on the world and more to do as the Dev Team is preparing to implement two new nations to the module, which has been an impressive project in scope.

I'll speak to my own experience of PoTm.  None of the changes to spells, the death systems, etc. et.. ever had much of an impact on me.  PoTm for me has always been about the story.  Servers just like players have to determine their identity.  When I first started the online nwn experience, I was green.  When I logged into a server listed as an RP  server, I assumed it was in fact a server that had an rp emphasis.  I was wrong.  I argued and butted heads against a large segment of that Blackheart Anphillia community.  It took me a little while to learn that the arguing was pointless, because the server and the Developer didn't aspire to the be type of server that I was looking for.  While the server labelled itself as rp, it was more of an action/adventure/pvp/light rp server.  

So we have these various aspects to this game; We have adventuring, crafting, light rp, heavy rp, social rp, pvp, leveling and so on.  What appealed to me from the start about PoTm, was that the Development Team was comprised of articulate and thoughtful people, who could explicitly state their vision and what this server strived to become.  PoTm didn't claim to be something it wasn't.  

The emphasis seemed to be on immersion, heavy role play, emphasis on story development, an emphasis on the gothic setting, an emphasis on bringing the setting alive, an emphasis on fostering story dynamics via use of factions.  PoTm has never strayed from this course.  It has only improved in measure to those players, dms, and developers who had the patience and mind to contribute positively.  

At the same time though, the discussion on how to balance aspects of 'reallism' and 'fantasy' is an imporant discussion at this time, or at any time.  Now I might not personally identity much with the griping here, or the malcontent, but nonetheless the topic of 'realism' and its place in PoTm is a very wrothy topic.  And I encourage players to continue sharing their thoughts on the matter, but at the same time players need to respect the process.  If you want a greater say in the development, then apply to the Dev Team.  The Dev Team has the function of bringing diverse and fresh perspectives and ideas to the table, towards shaping a shared vision, the setting of goals, and then the achievement of those goals.  Nothing is preventing us from sharing our ideas with the Dev Team, which many do, and we also see the positive results.  However, some players, to be blunt, don't take responsibility for their own personal frustrations at PoTm not being what they want it to be.

And you know, some of the players might not like where PoTm is going.  Does that mean there is something wrong with PoTm?  Of course not.  Now when I was butting heads with folks at Blackheart Anphillia, it eventually dawned on me that the whole thing was pointless, because that server did not aspire to be the type of server I wanted to participate in.  I logged in basically only due to a few players who I enjoyed rping with.  So I had to make a choice, to either accept the aspects of that server that I did not appreciate, or to move on.  

Now remember that this server started off as an idea.  Bluebomber and Soren along with others shared a vision, and they made PoTm come to life.  They opened it up, and PoTm has been attracking players since then.  Not all of us look for the same aspects in a game.  Some of you, hammer your malconent into the forums here.  But it may not be PoTm that is the issue.  It may be that you have to make the same decision I once made with Blackheart Anphillia.  Will you tolerate the aspects of PoTm that you don't appreciate, or is PoTm fostering aspects of role playing that do not match up with what you're looking for in a game?

PoTm can't be everything to everyone.  

[ThAnswr]

PoTm can't be everything to everyone.  

I may be a "malcontent", but I'm not the only one as evidenced by this thread and countless others. 

Absolutely right:  "PoTm can't be everything to everyone."  That is not the point.  There are several points being made on this thread. 

One point that is being made is that enough longtime players are upset not because they're not getting "everything", but feel they're getting next to nothing.  What's the point of adventuring if the risks vastly outweigh the rewards?  If a char doesn't adventure, never uses spells, and does nothing but RP, none of this makes any difference and the various tweaks haven't changed their game one bit.  I say "rock on."   
 
The second point being made is that no one came in and immediately demanded changes.  I'll take that back. A few have and they no longer frequent POTM.  The point that is being made is the changes have not made this a better game for many.  Not the few, the many and many being longtime players.  For many, the life has been sucked out of the game and they're going through the rote maneuvers trying to bring some life back into it. 

There's two ways to go with every problem: 

1)  Show someone the door

2)  Or ask them to sit down and discuss what's bothering them. 

Number 1 gets you nowhere and  number 2 conveys respect and fosters a sense of community. 

It's well and good to say these changes don't effect one's char so therefore "what's the problem"?  Many chars don't adventure and are perfectly content to do without spells, without loot, without goods, etc.  The point is that many players don't share that vision.  That's what people are trying to convey.

I really feel that this attitude of "you just don't understand" is counter-productive to any organization and any community.  I don't understand and, apparently, I've got company.  Maybe the first step is to explain so that we do understand. 

Btw, we're all here because we like the story.  And for the RP aficionados, I saw a heckuva lot more of it a year ago than I'm seeing now.  Maybe the RP is going on behind closed or in factions.  I don't know.  But, next to no one is visiting Murnu's anymore.  When was the last time you saw a crowd around the campfire in front of the Ladies Rest shooting the breeze? When was the last you saw a fairly large group in the outskirts church interacting and having conversations?  Hmmmmm ................

[Fallen]

Now remember that this server started off as an idea.  Bluebomber and Soren along with others shared a vision, and they made PoTm come to life.  They opened it up, and PoTm has been attracking players since then.  Not all of us look for the same aspects in a game.  Some of you, hammer your malconent into the forums here.  But it may not be PoTm that is the issue.  It may be that you have to make the same decision I once made with Blackheart Anphillia.  Will you tolerate the aspects of PoTm that you don't appreciate, or is PoTm fostering aspects of role playing that do not match up with what you're looking for in a game?

PoTm can't be everything to everyone. 

Good points Icon as well as others that have been brought up in this thread.  No one is out to be rigid or ruin anyones fun.  To me thats the whole reason all of us logging onto to this server day after day week after week month after month and for some of us year after year.  Wow!  Has it been that long already? 

Personally I've gone from player to DM, to player, back to DM, player again, DM again, Asst. Head DM ,then to Head DM oh back to player again, then back to Head DM.  Why would I do that?  Granted over a three year period.  I do it so I don't lose my perspective on being a player.  I haven't forgotten what makes things fun, I haven't forgotten the thrill of a roleplay going well or a successful dungeon crawl that ends with everyone living!  Or the dread feeling that hits you when everything is crashing down around you.  Alot of us have been here a long time true and alot of us have seen many changes and that causes us to wish for the 'good ole' days'. 

Heck even I wish that!  The days of Negnar and Griffon and Marek grabbing for power.  Killing a raccoon in front of a Ranger and trying to explain that it was a possessed demon creature.  Dragging off people to jail with Marcus.  But those are all the old days and no matter how much I wish they'd come back they won't.  But that isn't going to stop us from creating new memories or new memorable characters. 

The module is still listed in Beta and is still subject to change.  But we DO listen to feedback and we do feel the changes you do when something is implemented in the module.  We've got a great community guys and trust us that we will take up and listen to all of your suggestions.  If it isn't any fun for you then its not any fun for us. 

[ThAnswr]

Now remember that this server started off as an idea.  Bluebomber and Soren along with others shared a vision, and they made PoTm come to life.  They opened it up, and PoTm has been attracking players since then.  Not all of us look for the same aspects in a game.  Some of you, hammer your malconent into the forums here.  But it may not be PoTm that is the issue.  It may be that you have to make the same decision I once made with Blackheart Anphillia.  Will you tolerate the aspects of PoTm that you don't appreciate, or is PoTm fostering aspects of role playing that do not match up with what you're looking for in a game?

PoTm can't be everything to everyone. 

Good points Icon as well as others that have been brought up in this thread.  No one is out to be rigid or ruin anyones fun.  To me thats the whole reason all of us logging onto to this server day after day week after week month after month and for some of us year after year.  Wow!  Has it been that long already? 

Personally I've gone from player to DM, to player, back to DM, player again, DM again, Asst. Head DM ,then to Head DM oh back to player again, then back to Head DM.  Why would I do that?  Granted over a three year period.  I do it so I don't lose my perspective on being a player.  I haven't forgotten what makes things fun, I haven't forgotten the thrill of a roleplay going well or a successful dungeon crawl that ends with everyone living!  Or the dread feeling that hits you when everything is crashing down around you.  Alot of us have been here a long time true and alot of us have seen many changes and that causes us to wish for the 'good ole' days'. 

Heck even I wish that!  The days of Negnar and Griffon and Marek grabbing for power.  Killing a raccoon in front of a Ranger and trying to explain that it was a possessed demon creature.  Dragging off people to jail with Marcus.  But those are all the old days and no matter how much I wish they'd come back they won't.  But that isn't going to stop us from creating new memories or new memorable characters. 

The module is still listed in Beta and is still subject to change.  But we DO listen to feedback and we do feel the changes you do when something is implemented in the module.  We've got a great community guys and trust us that we will take up and listen to all of your suggestions.  If it isn't any fun for you then its not any fun for us. 

Thanks, we needed that.   

[superman300038]

    This is the first RP server I have ever played and I never felt the need to try another.  As others have said the Devs did a great job creating the world of Ravenloft.  The DM's also do a great job adding to the atmosphere with everything from "Howls rend the night" to plots they have run etc.

    Since I have been playing I cannot say I have felt any great impact from any of the changes the server has gone through.(I.E. the changes to the crafting system)

    Low magic is something I enjoy about the setting.  As far as finding a balance between magic users vs. fighters (not clerics) I think the only answer could be the simplest.  Until the fighter can reach the mage he is at the mage's mercy.  But once the fighter can reach the mage... its over.  Of course I have never seen a server of any game run like that; usually if a fighter is dealing with a mage it is through hauling out because he knows he does not stand a chance.
   
    Low loot does not have an incredible effect on me either.  My PC has never had more then 4,000 to his name, ever.  Of course I would love to see more loot... I think everyone being rich is worse then everyone barely getting by though.
    Low loot does not effect me and how I play but anyone who hangs out with Michael knows he is one poor guy and if he dies you'll be getting an IOU.  (Which I do pay back, it just takes time!)  So I can certainly understand the risk vs. reward talk, and would agree with what has been said.

    As far as factions go I have only been a part of one - the guard- and I can honestly say if I never wanted to adventure again I would still have more then enough RP to keep me busy.  Being in a faction has been great fun for me and I have to thank Doom and Heretic for what they have done.
    I saw a thread on adding racism back into the game so to speak, and of guards cracking down on magic users.  I completely agree.  After all, that is a major part of this xenophobic setting.  From what I can see the guards are doing a great job at it.  Except Michael of course, but we all know about

    If I had to pick just one thing to say "Maybe something could be done about this" it would be what Bad_Bud said.  Having the ability to shape the world - and here in Ravenloft it will likely come out for the worse, regardless of the intent - is something I think everyone would love to see.  Of course that is something that is done over time I am sure, and through plots.
    I.E. if the dwarves manage to sway king Moloch to their side against Vallaki.  Now would be a better time for that too with the dwarves becoming disgruntled with the humans stealing up all the ore.  Of course idea's of something horrible happening to the halls would be fun too.  To me it would only be fun in a certain way though.
    If I log in tomorrow and see the halls have turned into just another dungeon I would of course go and see what happened but likely would not be very thrilled.  But if a call to aid went out because something strange was happening.. maybe some time for PC's to get in there and snoop around see if they cannot stop whatever it is.  Then when they cannot a call to arms asking for anyone to help hold the Dwarven halls.. etc, etc.  If it is to fall fine, but lets watch it happen, and participate in it.

    The one other thing I can mention is that I would love to see more NPC 'content' if that makes sense?  Let me explain - I want to see Strahd.  Maybe it is just him coming to collect tax, maybe he wants to hire some PCs to kill some people who have been hanging around his castle.  Seeing the Visanti come to the outskirts and doign Visanti stuff would also be great.  Things along those lines.

    I also think a subdual system would be an incredible addition.  I think I can speak for all guards when I say it would get more then its fair share of use

  That is it.  I cannot thank the dev and DM team or the players enough for all they have added.  If not for any of them it would not be the same, and without any of them this Ravenloft server would be just another server.  I could go on and on about everything I love but just let me say this; Thank you all.

[Nefensis]

  Killing a raccoon in front of a Ranger and trying to explain that it was a possessed demon creature.

Funny that you remember that 

I'm pretty amazed where this thread is going, so far we see many players that would like to see the game steering back a bit into where it was before all these drastic changes, easier to play perhaps and that caters to a larger population. But altogether the word is that we love POTM no matter what, although many have protested against the changes they have not been listened to enough perhaps, decision taken by the DM team and often a one person reply from them was something along the lines to "If you don't like it not my problem". 

Oh and by the by, cannot wait for Hazlan and Dementlieu.

I would love to see the factions handled a bit more by the players rather than DMs and NPCs, it allows a load more of versatility. When both the guards and the Vardo were somewhat PC ran (to echo what Helaman voiced) there was SO much going on. As soon as that changed, both faction became quiet and nigh dead. At time the Drain feels the same in a opposite way, without DM support there is very little the Drain PCs are willing to take on, always waiting for a reply that lacks coming.

I want this game to be DnD again.

[mayvind]

My personal view is that the server need to be less Canon from the book and concentrate on the story driven by players.

I have play 2 years in Wheel of Time with factions control by players with item ranks system and it work very well the DMs only avocate but do not control ( but if it get out of hand then DM will step in ) and the decision was from players mostly ( faction leader ) . And it strive, i work my way from low ranking Darkfriend backstabbing Players and became one of the most powerful Dreadlord ( faction leader ) before i retire here.

Here i feel factions is a hindrance to RP, there a wall and strict rules which force you into the line and if you break it then you out side of the system.

As for Loot system, i want the old system where you have something to show off or that the Vardo can sell it to playerbase so the economy thrive with less gold around so that you need to work hard to get those rare sword. Currently the loot system is that gold is easy to find but no value except Raising yours buddy.

I want to see more +1 or +2 weapons, armors, rings and all of cool stuffs spawn inside a chest for once !

P.S I dont even go to Demologist or Scrags cave or vampire lairs etc. etc. anymore i dont even know about the new dungeons or wish to go there because what the point? there no loot worth it for me to adventuring there.

[Bad_Bud]

Maybe the lack of loot is actually making people dungeon run more instead of less.