healing available -feedback

[Iconoclast]

As muich as I might also want to partake in the discussion of clerics, and the concept of a healer, lets try to keep this on topic.

As Carrion, who has been moderating the past few months (Or longer, time flies!), as Carrion Flower is busy and unable to devote much time to moderating the forum, we're making a group effort to keep the forums in good shape.   

So not trying to play the role of a tough guy, just asking to take a discussion of clerics to another thread.  You'd think we'd have a thread on cleric concepts, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.   


By the way, I do see how the topic of clerics is relevant and came up, but I also know that sometimes if not put back on course, the thread can get off topic and stray.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.

I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.

I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.

On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.

[Iconoclast]

At the moment, some of the healing potion shortage is being role played out and organized effort is starting to shape up icly to gather the herbs necessary for healing, getting into the hands of the herbalist and then the seller and buyers.

As I said, of course clerics is relevant, but I was cautioning agaisnt the thread becoming a battleground over balance and clerics compared to other classes.


With my own cleric, I love having faction members to buff, especially a fighter build.  Some of the best adventuring moments I've had has been due to having Daeros at her side, and with him not using a shield and sacrificing his AC, Nell often has, including greater restores and full heals, up to six full heals.  I also love that Nell can partake in the Church tradition of herbalism, along with other Wardens such as Deneve. 

So I'm curious to see how the ic efforts to deal with a healing potion shortage will play out, now that efforts are being made icly to help alleviate it all. 

[ThAnswr]

I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.

I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.

I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.

On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.

Not all clerics are healers and not all clerics wish to be healers.  I had to get rid of my Healing domain becausue it was not one of the domains of my diety.  Do I get it back now?

I'm very happy that some clerics find their RP satisfaction however, wherever, and with whoever they find it and more power to them.  But not all players find that same satisfaction.  And it's not just the clerics.  Not every fighter is a power dungeoner nor is every mage a fireball throwing powerhouse.  To me, class was a first step and not a way to box onesself in as to destiny.  I would bet more than a few among the playerbase feel that way. 

Are we moving towards the idea that class is destiny and the door is shown to those who don't wish to follow that predetermined destiny?  Is this the direction things are moving in?  Is Sam Wraith going to be told "you're a healer and not member of the Vardo?   I'm sorry, but I'm mystified here and there's plenty of that among the player base who's trying to figure what's happening.  Here's the confusion:  OTOH, players are encouraged to expand and RP towards that end and at the same time players are told "hey, you're a healer so heal".  I'm a bit confused.  Anythng to clear up the confusion would be more than appreciated. 

The idea of partying is all well and good but it isn't always feasible.  If anything, the European players know that best. 

Btw, here's the way I see things shaping up:  Removal of the healing potions from the stores will NOT have the desired effect of furthering RP except in the most limited of circumstances and only with a few players.  Potions and the control of potions will concentrate that power in the hands of a few to the detriment of new players.  That's how it works in RL and we're all products of our RL. 

Certainly the PtB have every right to steer their server in whatever direction they wish.  But there's also the law of unintended consequences and what really looks good on paper does not turn out to have the desired effect.  Predetermining destiny based on class and creating the potential for monopolies do not generally create a dynamic world. 

It seems to me that the supposed expansion of a craft such as herbalism was in reality a method of social engineering to a specific path and not an expansion at all.  But, since the PtB own this server, they're certainly entitled to socially engineer chars/players/classes/etc to their vision.  Rock on.   

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

[Bad_Bud]

I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.

I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.

I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.

On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.

Not all clerics are healers and not all clerics wish to be healers.  I had to get rid of my Healing domain becausue it was not one of the domains of my diety.  Do I get it back now?

I'm very happy that some clerics find their RP satisfaction however, wherever, and with whoever they find it and more power to them.  But not all players find that same satisfaction.  And it's not just the clerics.  Not every fighter is a power dungeoner nor is every mage a fireball throwing powerhouse.  To me, class was a first step and not a way to box onesself in as to destiny.  I would bet more than a few among the playerbase feel that way. 

Are we moving towards the idea that class is destiny and the door is shown to those who don't wish to follow that predetermined destiny?  Is this the direction things are moving in?  Is Sam Wraith going to be told "you're a healer and not member of the Vardo?   I'm sorry, but I'm mystified here and there's plenty of that among the player base who's trying to figure what's happening.  Here's the confusion:  OTOH, players are encouraged to expand and RP towards that end and at the same time players are told "hey, you're a healer so heal".  I'm a bit confused.  Anythng to clear up the confusion would be more than appreciated. 

The idea of partying is all well and good but it isn't always feasible.  If anything, the European players know that best. 

Btw, here's the way I see things shaping up:  Removal of the healing potions from the stores will NOT have the desired effect of furthering RP except in the most limited of circumstances and only with a few players.  Potions and the control of potions will concentrate that power in the hands of a few to the detriment of new players.  That's how it works in RL and we're all products of our RL. 

Certainly the PtB have every right to steer their server in whatever direction they wish.  But there's also the law of unintended consequences and what really looks good on paper does not turn out to have the desired effect.  Predetermining destiny based on class and creating the potential for monopolies do not generally create a dynamic world. 

It seems to me that the supposed expansion of a craft such as herbalism was in reality a method of social engineering to a specific path and not an expansion at all.  But, since the PtB own this server, they're certainly entitled to socially engineer chars/players/classes/etc to their vision.  Rock on.   

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

No, I think they're saying that in general, cleric is supposed to be a support class, but it seems like no cleric plays that role.  Not that every cleric should, but it doesn't seem like any do.  They're all "battle priests".

Clerics can be powerful, but Rex is right, when a cleric is supporting, the party is unstoppable.

[penny]

From the 3.0 player's handbook:

"Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the bower of his god to make his god's will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god's power, that's to be expected too.

Clerics are masters of divine magic. Divine magic is especially good at healing."

And that's it. Never does it say, in the entire entry, that clerics are meant solely for support and healing. Yes. They do heal. But not all of them choose to because it may not be the will of thair god. If it was an Ilmateri, then yes there's no reason for them to be a battle cleric. But for more militaristic gods, like Torm or Tyr? You bet those would be battle-clerics.

Anywho back on topic.. So far as I know, the potions are coming from two groups.. Denalie, and the Vardo. What if they aren't around? n00bs, which I think are the most hard-hit by this, will be SOL. I mean, think, if you were a brand new player, would you want to play on a server where you can't even survive the rats or crypts because you have no healing?

Depending on players is a good thing in theory.. But as I said, not all those people can be around all the time.

[ThAnswr]

I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.

I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.

I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.

On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.

Not all clerics are healers and not all clerics wish to be healers.  I had to get rid of my Healing domain becausue it was not one of the domains of my diety.  Do I get it back now?

I'm very happy that some clerics find their RP satisfaction however, wherever, and with whoever they find it and more power to them.  But not all players find that same satisfaction.  And it's not just the clerics.  Not every fighter is a power dungeoner nor is every mage a fireball throwing powerhouse.  To me, class was a first step and not a way to box onesself in as to destiny.  I would bet more than a few among the playerbase feel that way. 

Are we moving towards the idea that class is destiny and the door is shown to those who don't wish to follow that predetermined destiny?  Is this the direction things are moving in?  Is Sam Wraith going to be told "you're a healer and not member of the Vardo?   I'm sorry, but I'm mystified here and there's plenty of that among the player base who's trying to figure what's happening.  Here's the confusion:  OTOH, players are encouraged to expand and RP towards that end and at the same time players are told "hey, you're a healer so heal".  I'm a bit confused.  Anythng to clear up the confusion would be more than appreciated. 

The idea of partying is all well and good but it isn't always feasible.  If anything, the European players know that best. 

Btw, here's the way I see things shaping up:  Removal of the healing potions from the stores will NOT have the desired effect of furthering RP except in the most limited of circumstances and only with a few players.  Potions and the control of potions will concentrate that power in the hands of a few to the detriment of new players.  That's how it works in RL and we're all products of our RL. 

Certainly the PtB have every right to steer their server in whatever direction they wish.  But there's also the law of unintended consequences and what really looks good on paper does not turn out to have the desired effect.  Predetermining destiny based on class and creating the potential for monopolies do not generally create a dynamic world. 

It seems to me that the supposed expansion of a craft such as herbalism was in reality a method of social engineering to a specific path and not an expansion at all.  But, since the PtB own this server, they're certainly entitled to socially engineer chars/players/classes/etc to their vision.  Rock on.   

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

No, I think they're saying that in general, cleric is supposed to be a support class, but it seems like no cleric plays that role.  Not that every cleric should, but it doesn't seem like any do.  They're all "battle priests".

Clerics can be powerful, but Rex is right, when a cleric is supporting, the party is unstoppable.

Then I guess the cleric who chooses to play only a support role will be the most in demand.   

I can see it now:  "Please Mr. Cleric, don't use that spell slot for Max Searing Light/Max Hammer of the Gods/Harm/etc. or any buffs for me or you.  Save it for "Cure Light/Mod/Serious Wounds". 

OTOH, I guess Mass Heal still falls under the job description when dealing with the undead. 

I'm sorry, I'm still laughing over the woman who shot herself while trying to kill mice.   

(see Tavern post)

[ethinos]

From the 3.0 player's handbook:

"Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the bower of his god to make his god's will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god's power, that's to be expected too.

Clerics are masters of divine magic. Divine magic is especially good at healing."

And that's it. Never does it say, in the entire entry, that clerics are meant solely for support and healing. Yes. They do heal. But not all of them choose to because it may not be the will of thair god. If it was an Ilmateri, then yes there's no reason for them to be a battle cleric. But for more militaristic gods, like Torm or Tyr? You bet those would be battle-clerics.

Funny, you say that since "heal" pops up first in their scope of work. Considering that of all the classes in PotM, that only Druids and Clerics can really heal (since Bards aren't really that good at it I think), I'd consider that they should focus on this. No one else can heal as part of their class skills, and by ignoring it you create a huge need for healing potions. And the problem is that none of the clerics I've come across ever really tries to heal anyone. D&D (regardless of edition) has always been about a party with a lock-picker, a spell slinger, a basher, and a healer.

If I remember right, you can sacrifice a spell slot to cast the basic healling spell of that level. So you can heal without even memorizing heal spells. But no one does.... ever. This isn't a comparison of clerics to other classes, this is simply a focus of what the current clerics AREN'T doing, and as a result, our over dependence on healing potions.

Anywho back on topic.. So far as I know, the potions are coming from two groups.. Denalie, and the Vardo. What if they aren't around? n00bs, which I think are the most hard-hit by this, will be SOL. I mean, think, if you were a brand new player, would you want to play on a server where you can't even survive the rats or crypts because you have no healing?

Depending on players is a good thing in theory.. But as I said, not all those people can be around all the time.

Don't forget the ML healing potions. Everyone under level 10 can benefit from those potions. I think the gypsy lady still makes potions, as do some more apparently as mentioned by EO. But if folks partied up with clerics that actually healed their party members, this issue wouldn't be such a problem.

[ThAnswr]

From the 3.0 player's handbook:

"Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the bower of his god to make his god's will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god's power, that's to be expected too.

Clerics are masters of divine magic. Divine magic is especially good at healing."

And that's it. Never does it say, in the entire entry, that clerics are meant solely for support and healing. Yes. They do heal. But not all of them choose to because it may not be the will of thair god. If it was an Ilmateri, then yes there's no reason for them to be a battle cleric. But for more militaristic gods, like Torm or Tyr? You bet those would be battle-clerics.

Funny, you say that since "heal" pops up first in their scope of work. Considering that of all the classes in PotM, that only Druids and Clerics can really heal (since Bards aren't really that good at it I think), I'd consider that they should focus on this. No one else can heal as part of their class skills, and by ignoring it you create a huge need for healing potions. And the problem is that none of the clerics I've come across ever really tries to heal anyone. D&D (regardless of edition) has always been about a party with a lock-picker, a spell slinger, a basher, and a healer.

If I remember right, you can sacrifice a spell slot to cast the basic healling spell of that level. So you can heal without even memorizing heal spells. But no one does.... ever. This isn't a comparison of clerics to other classes, this is simply a focus of what the current clerics AREN'T doing, and as a result, our over dependence on healing potions.

Anywho back on topic.. So far as I know, the potions are coming from two groups.. Denalie, and the Vardo. What if they aren't around? n00bs, which I think are the most hard-hit by this, will be SOL. I mean, think, if you were a brand new player, would you want to play on a server where you can't even survive the rats or crypts because you have no healing?

Depending on players is a good thing in theory.. But as I said, not all those people can be around all the time.

Don't forget the ML healing potions. Everyone under level 10 can benefit from those potions. I think the gypsy lady still makes potions, as do some more apparently as mentioned by EO. But if folks partied up with clerics that actually healed their party members, this issue wouldn't be such a problem.

Anyone who feels that the current clerics just don't know their place should feel free to start up a new cleric char devoted to healing and only healing.  Have at it. 

Funny how fast this turned into class warfare ................ again. 

FYI, this cleric used the readily available potions to heal party members while simultaneously lending a hand with combat including buffing the party with GMW, Death Ward, Pro from Evil and the rest of the buffing spells required to walk into a high level dungeon.  This cleric never heard any complaints nor was a buff ever refused.  Hell, most of the time party members asked for those buffs.   Btw, no one offered to reimburse the cleric for the cost of those Healing potions either. 

Again, feel free to start up a cleric char solely devoted to healing. 

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

Drudoc used to do nothing BUT healling and support for the longest time then everyone was like blah blah blah fire off spell etc etc and a bunch of other stuff

meh anyhow i stil say if herbalism could make insta healing kits too thta would be great

[ethinos]

There is no class warfare here, nor did I say clerics should focus solely on healing. You don't need the Healing domain to heal someone. However, I can't remember the last time a cleric bothered to save a few slots for healing magic. I think Wirth heals folks with his spells more than any cleric he ever buddied up with.

I'd start up a cleric but I prefer more of a challenge in my roleplaying, and there are already waaaay too many.

[Iconoclast]

There is a difference between our experiences and reality.  I've no doubt that in some player character's experience, they don't encounter a cleric as healer very often, while I've no doubt, based on my own experience, that in reality there are clerics as healers who do make it their cheif role to keep everyone alive.  When the Ezrites go on a quest, all those in company are taken care of when it comes to healing.  Although due to canon, some Anchorite/healers will only provide healing to those of their faith.   

[penny]

Funny, you say that since "heal" pops up first in their scope of work. Considering that of all the classes in PotM, that only Druids and Clerics can really heal (since Bards aren't really that good at it I think), I'd consider that they should focus on this. No one else can heal as part of their class skills, and by ignoring it you create a huge need for healing potions. And the problem is that none of the clerics I've come across ever really tries to heal anyone. D&D (regardless of edition) has always been about a party with a lock-picker, a spell slinger, a basher, and a healer.

As I said yes they do heal, but that isn't all they do. They do what's right by their god and dogma. They aren't necessarily meant to be just healing machines. If there are clerics of deities with an emphasis on healing not healing, feel free to smack them. Lumping all clerics into one pile isn't sensical since there are so many gods. "You're a cleric of Loviatar! WHY AREN'T YOU HEALING!?"

Don't forget the ML healing potions. Everyone under level 10 can benefit from those potions. I think the gypsy lady still makes potions, as do some more apparently as mentioned by EO. But if folks partied up with clerics that actually healed their party members, this issue wouldn't be such a problem.

A lowbie cleric can't always be found. Even if one could be found, it might not make RP sense to party up. Or, the cleric just might not feel like adventuring at the time. And if they have no cleric and no potions, how are they supposed to be able to kill undead and beetles? As I said depending on other players is fine in theory, but theory is a treacherous thing since it can break apart like a biscuit raft(props if you know where I got that). How about, only cure light potions are put in stores for emergencies/lowbies, but anything higher has to be purchased from herbalists?

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

There is a difference between our experiences and reality.  I've no doubt that in some player character's experience, they don't encounter a cleric as healer very often, while I've no doubt, based on my own experience, that in reality there are clerics as healers who do make it their cheif role to keep everyone alive.  When the Ezrites go on a quest, all those in company are taken care of when it comes to healing.  Although due to canon, some Anchorite/healers will only provide healing to those of their faith.   

agreed here with icono in my times with rping with nell deneve heck even jadin all for the times he's pushed calson away and what not never could complain with a decent sense of team work at play. though i will grant i see FAR to many 'battle priests'

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

How about, only cure light potions are put in stores for emergencies/lowbies, but anything higher has to be purchased from herbalists?

agreed here why not? that way then you got CLW availbe in shops, CMW from the vistani anything else like that or stronger y ou go to an herbalist sounds good to me

[ethinos]

As I said yes they do heal, but that isn't all they do. They do what's right by their god and dogma. They aren't necessarily meant to be just healing machines. If there are clerics of deities with an emphasis on healing not healing, feel free to smack them. Lumping all clerics into one pile isn't sensical since there are so many gods. "You're a cleric of Loviatar! WHY AREN'T YOU HEALING!?"

I never said a cleric had to heal and only heal. But what I often see is that they never heal, as they save all their spell slots for buffs, with the oft exception being Heal. However, Heal seems to be memorized more to combat undead than to actually use on a living person. Like I said, no one else can truly heal folks, so this ability to heal is an important part of being a cleric and shouldn't be neglected. I'm not trying to tell clerics how to play their characters, but this is one of the reasons folks have to depend on magic healing so much. The Ezrites may indeed be what I'm looking for as the more classical archetype of the cleric, but somehow I can never find them with Geoffrey.

A lowbie cleric can't always be found. Even if one could be found, it might not make RP sense to party up. Or, the cleric just might not feel like adventuring at the time. And if they have no cleric and no potions, how are they supposed to be able to kill undead and beetles?

I have folks that almost never have heals on them. Just ask Grimshackle about adventuring with Torgan. The damned dwarf never has heals on him. Still, this doesn't stop him from adventuring. He just needs to be careful and plan on resting when he gets weak. No "easy button" to recoup hit points, a la healing pots. Beetles though, eat Drobita on the way through. I do.

All this talk of magic healing though, makes me wonder if we should focus more on natural healing through the Heal skill set. Maybe some method of a minor return in hit points immediately, with more after resting? Would help keep us from focusing so much on healing potions and kits and folks may actually take ranks in Heal for more than just RP reasons.

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

Maybe some method of a minor return in hit points immediately, with more after resting? Would help keep us from focusing so much on healing potions and kits and folks may actually take ranks in Heal for more than just RP reasons.

i and i know many others have said this tons of times  nothing ever htough comes of it the ability to use healing kits to return say 1d4+1hp to a postive hp person or stabalize a 0-9 negative hp person would be great also with enough points in heal and lore to cure certain disesase too

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

No one is forcing anyone to play their character in any way. We are just assuring the natural balance of advantages, not forcing anyone into any mold. The way you roleplay the personality is still the key defining factor of the character. I honestly feel it's a bit far fetched to say this is compromising anyone's way of roleplaying.

All we are trying to do is strengthening mutual dependencies to foster roleplay, not enforce it nor how it's done. The advantage of forming alliances has always been a driving factor for many great stories, but as always, we still leave it as your choice. On the other hand, not having to make any priorities just leaves you with indifference - and personally, I think that forming a fragile alliance, somewhat reluctant, but based on necessity, is much more interesting than no alliance at all.

Revising the healing kit might be an idea - I'll make sure we consider that...

[penny]

Yes, but my point is the folks who sell potions/heal aren't going to be around always. Having only CLW in stores would help with that.

[Rex]

Cleric NEVER, has to actually memorize/pray, for a Healing spell.  You load up on the one you think you need for your Junior Soloing Crusader special, and you quickslot a few healing spells because, funny thing for something that's "Not Just a Healer!!!!!!", Clerics all seems to have this ability to cast heal spells at will by "sacrificing" a prepared spell of equal level.

I'll HAPPILY start up a cleric thread, if I get clearance from a higher up to actually voice an opinion without having the Care-A-Lot security forces charge my house.

Zarathustra pointed out the nifty thing of a mixed party, but Here, well I'll include that in my Cleric thread.

Point of Order though.  I play a fighter.  No Gear, rarely more then a mix of a half dozen, maybe ten potions or so on me, all different.  I have no gear to speak of, can only do maybe 2 dungeon possibly three, If they haven't been raped to death by the Farmer crowd.

Getting along actually a bit better then I was before the potion change, even if I have to duck and cover from all the people shrieking about the change, that are either Casters, or some sort of sneak.  The element of that shriek seems to be that with the new system it's Harder, Yet as someone way way way way way at the bottom of the food chain do to the environments allergy to Fighter types having gear, I'm actually doing a touch BETTER, under this system, as opposed to being over shadowed by min maxed munchkins, under the old.  You would think that if it's harder for Sir Castalot, Priest of Uber Power, and Poofta the Mighty evoker of all that is leet and cool, that Joe Schmuck the Fighter types, should be playing cards in the Fugue plane and looking for the next bag of Doritios to be brought in.

It plays, and I haven't even noticed this so called shortage.  But then, I play according to the character sheet.  Not according to some 50000 gallon potion tank I keep in my back pack.

Even in High Fantasy High Magic settings, Potions are not meant to be that available.  They're supposed to be the ace in the hole, the crutch, the surprise.  Not something you see 50 people sloshing about town with.  I'd like to see potions show up instead of the LAME *insert list here then balance it with a set of 4 pound fans* in treasure maybe.  Also a topic for another thread.  To get back to this one, as the lowest of the low (a fighter) in a place designed to screw certain classes (fighters and barbarians, Rangers up to a certain level), I'm actually still not seeing either this shortage (since I have to turn away sellers all the time), or the issues associated with the new systems (think crafting is to hard, don't CRAFT).

~Rex

[ThAnswr]

Cleric NEVER, has to actually memorize/pray, for a Healing spell.  You load up on the one you think you need for your Junior Soloing Crusader special, and you quickslot a few healing spells because, funny thing for something that's "Not Just a Healer!!!!!!", Clerics all seems to have this ability to cast heal spells at will by "sacrificing" a prepared spell of equal level.

I'll HAPPILY start up a cleric thread, if I get clearance from a higher up to actually voice an opinion without having the Care-A-Lot security forces charge my house.

Zarathustra pointed out the nifty thing of a mixed party, but Here, well I'll include that in my Cleric thread.

Point of Order though.  I play a fighter.  No Gear, rarely more then a mix of a half dozen, maybe ten potions or so on me, all different.  I have no gear to speak of, can only do maybe 2 dungeon possibly three, If they haven't been raped to death by the Farmer crowd.

Getting along actually a bit better then I was before the potion change, even if I have to duck and cover from all the people shrieking about the change, that are either Casters, or some sort of sneak.  The element of that shriek seems to be that with the new system it's Harder, Yet as someone way way way way way at the bottom of the food chain do to the environments allergy to Fighter types having gear, I'm actually doing a touch BETTER, under this system, as opposed to being over shadowed by min maxed munchkins, under the old.  You would think that if it's harder for Sir Castalot, Priest of Uber Power, and Poofta the Mighty evoker of all that is leet and cool, that Joe Schmuck the Fighter types, should be playing cards in the Fugue plane and looking for the next bag of Doritios to be brought in.

It plays, and I haven't even noticed this so called shortage.  But then, I play according to the character sheet.  Not according to some 50000 gallon potion tank I keep in my back pack.

Even in High Fantasy High Magic settings, Potions are not meant to be that available.  They're supposed to be the ace in the hole, the crutch, the surprise.  Not something you see 50 people sloshing about town with.  I'd like to see potions show up instead of the LAME *insert list here then balance it with a set of 4 pound fans* in treasure maybe.  Also a topic for another thread.  To get back to this one, as the lowest of the low (a fighter) in a place designed to screw certain classes (fighters and barbarians, Rangers up to a certain level), I'm actually still not seeing either this shortage (since I have to turn away sellers all the time), or the issues associated with the new systems (think crafting is to hard, don't CRAFT).

~Rex

Knock yourself out.   

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Yes, but my point is the folks who sell potions/heal aren't going to be around always. Having only CLW in stores would help with that.

The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply, and we would be more or less back at where we started. There are currently great ways for lowbies to obtain cure light wounds potions by trading unique ingredients with NPCs. It's my experience that this works out quite well, allowing most low levels to always carry a few, though please correct if I'm wrong.

And Rex, I'm starting to worry about how much I've been agreeing with you lately...

[Alithym]

The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply,

What stops farming of said places though from high levels to get unlimited supplies anyhow? Easier for them to wipe everything out by themselves and stock up, leaving the lowbies in the dust.

[ThAnswr]

The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply,

What stops farming of said places though from high levels to get unlimited supplies anyhow? Easier for them to wipe everything out by themselves and stock up, leaving the lowbies in the dust.

Nothing stops high levels except an honor system.   

However, as resources become scarce, I can almost guarantee players will get what they need when they need it.  And  it won't involve waiting until one's favorite vendor logs on. 

[ethinos]

The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply,

What stops farming of said places though from high levels to get unlimited supplies anyhow? Easier for them to wipe everything out by themselves and stock up, leaving the lowbies in the dust.

Easy. Once you get well over a hundred hit points, those ML heals are pitifully weak. Torgan won't bother to farm knuckles because getting 5-10 hps out of a potion is worthless in a truly heavy battle. Even a Cure Moderate is only mildly effective. Higher levels are going to be wanting Cure Serious/Criticals or better. Anything less is only useful between battles, and now with the ability to rest more frequently, you don't even need them.