Author Topic: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?  (Read 20990 times)

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2008, 09:37:50 PM »
Rex, you say that like it's a bad thing.   :lol:

(Just kidding.  That could be a pretty bad thing.)

dutchy

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2008, 09:37:59 PM »
aslong i have an axe for every elemental dmg type befor they up it im good  :mrgreen:   hell go ahead call me cheezy   but good gear makes a better melee character.
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Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2008, 12:41:48 AM »
My point is, that in a low magic setting every magic item should be a named item of consequence.  Not just Genericus Sword 23 Flame damage adder +2 churned out by the dozen since it's a speed bump to Not so Genericus Sword Flame Damage Add +1d6. 

Much like how POTIONS, aren't supposed to be this Fish Tank of Uberness even in a high Magic setting.

As for a revamp of Gilding idea, I've got a Giant post for another thread, maybe tomorrow if I make it back from work with my car having fits as it is.

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Helaman

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2008, 08:14:23 AM »
IS it really that needed.  Seriously all it gives you is a +1 vs shape shifters.  Once enchanting kicks in, I see guilding vanishing from the interests of most of the gilders.

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Given I will have NO chance of enchanting, it will become the poor mans (pfft 2k is poor?) weapon of choice and its lustre will fade.

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2008, 11:07:21 AM »
IS it really that needed.  Seriously all it gives you is a +1 vs shape shifters.  Once enchanting kicks in, I see guilding vanishing from the interests of most of the gilders.

~Rex


Given I will have NO chance of enchanting, it will become the poor mans (pfft 2k is poor?) weapon of choice and its lustre will fade.

Wait till you see my proposal Helaman.  Provided Yoshi isn't stuck behind a sarcophagus somewhere,
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Lockleed

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2008, 12:59:40 PM »
I've watched this thread with interest, though I've let Koopa do most of the crusading on it for me.  My main PC, Corvin, is a good enough Smith to tinker at Gilding.  He's currently at level 2 as a gilder.  Might be 3, I've forgotten.  My purposes getting into the entire crafting aspect of smithing / gilding was mostly to be able to rearm my own own PC, in the likely chance he gets his shiny steel & silver sword disarmed or taken on death by, OH, I don't know, say, NEGNAR.   :D  (Seriously, a werewolf dashing up and disarming and running away really cracked me up, I loved it)

From my perspective, silver gilding should be plenty damn hard.  And it is.  I don't much mind that my PC can't advance easily at it.  Corvin was originally a farmer, he may have become good at slinging a hammer, but he's really not that smart.  Mastering the process of acid etching and gilding silver should be pretty much beyond him.  I can still turn around and hammer out some nice weapons and armor.

That said, I would try to master gilding more, at least to the point of being able to rearm myself with about a decent success rate.  The cost doesn't phase me, the process of selling silver weapons off would provide money for it, and its not terribly hard to get hold of fang anyway.  But the silver!  The idea of making that many trips to the Wagner Silver Mine, or even down below Dvergeheim... I'd rather just not master it, and instead just spend more time RPing, goofing around, and being target practice for various evil-doers.  Hours of ore-carting just doesn't appeal to me.  (not even considering the encumbrance problem of ore these days... I really want to contract a druid to turn into a pack-bear for ore carting)

Oh, here's a thing, mildly unrelated, that I thought would be nice.  Gilding armor, with say, silver or gold, to produce something like "Silver-etched Steel Plate" or "Gold-etched Steel Plate"  Even platinum, though I'm not sure of the viability of the metal for such a process.  Toss on a minor influence bonus or some such on the armor.  Or something like that.  Just an idea.

Taty

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2008, 01:12:31 PM »
I'm willing to wager you got your first lvl using buffs and not with a 1000 failures, that is the only issue I have with guilding.

Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2008, 05:25:28 PM »
I'm willing to wager you got your first lvl using buffs and not with a 1000 failures, that is the only issue I have with guilding.

Not everyone, achieved their 1st level with Buffs.

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failed.bard

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2008, 07:53:58 AM »
Anyone that got to get levels in it without the -5 penalty don't count, in the unbuffed category.  Wilhelm can gild now, and needs a 20 to get a success for the first one.  Under the old system, without the -5 and buff, he would have needed an 11 for the first try, and a 10 after that.  Having stats suited to it, and dropping from a 50% chance to a 5% chance really only protects the market for the players that can already do it.  Yoshinaka could most likely never gotten a success under this system, and my guess is most of the smiths doing it now couldn't either.

It would be nice if a Dev could comment on the original proposal, where the DC would be scaled to the item crafting DC.

Taty

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2008, 08:39:01 AM »
I just did some math with Dorin last night. I have +4 from stats so I need 1 lvl to hit the 25-5=20. At a cost of some 260 fang a try and at 1 xp a failure that is 260,000 fang for on lvl of guilding. After that I need to hit my 20 and I will have a 5% chance each attempt. How many players can afford 260k . Guilding has become something only people with very sprecialised stats (min/max) or people that spend wayyyyy tooo much time killing rats can possibly acomplish. Why make such an excellent crafting system and then do so much to discourage people from doing it ?

failed.bard

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2008, 09:59:55 AM »
I just did some math with Dorin last night. I have +4 from stats so I need 1 lvl to hit the 25-5=20. At a cost of some 260 fang a try and at 1 xp a failure that is 260,000 fang for on lvl of guilding. After that I need to hit my 20 and I will have a 5% chance each attempt. How many players can afford 260k . Guilding has become something only people with very sprecialised stats (min/max) or people that spend wayyyyy tooo much time killing rats can possibly acomplish. Why make such an excellent crafting system and then do so much to discourage people from doing it ?

You get to level one off your first failure.  Wilhelm has 3 from int, and one from con, so +4 base, and +1 for gild 1.  The 20 will get rid of the -5, and then he only needs a 15 to succeed.  Even at that, law of averages and all, that's still 20 attempt, and it cost him a little over 300 for the materials.  6k isn't bad, but for the people that are master smiths, but have +3 or less, they won't bother even trying.

Taty

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2008, 10:10:49 AM »
Ohh, well that isnt so bad at all, my mistake. thank god, that seemed insane, instead its just me :P

Taty

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2008, 11:13:09 AM »
though I still pity anyone who does not get at least a +4 from stats.

Lockleed

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2008, 05:02:30 PM »
Thats me!  Corvin doesn't have the stats to support gilding, but he's a master smith.  And like Failed.Bard said, I'm just not going to try at the gilding with those chances.

Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2008, 05:11:58 PM »
Let's face it, not everyone can master EVERY trade.  Jack of all Trades master of none.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2008, 05:17:02 PM »
Actually, if the character was a jack of all trades, they could master all of them.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2008, 06:16:50 PM »
Yeah, Rex' response is right. Our system is designed and built around the ability modifiers for a reason. Characters aren't supposed to be masters at everything. If you have a high wis/con character, then herbalism may be for you, but if you're more str/con, then it's smithing, etc.

Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2008, 06:19:06 PM »
but now a char good at smiting is potentially horrible at gilding, and since you cant gild without smiting, it's a weird situation. I still think the system needs something else to add to it.

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ethinos

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2008, 06:19:59 PM »
but now a char good at smiting is potentially horrible at gilding, and since you cant gild without smiting, it's a weird situation. I still think the system needs something else to add to it.

Nonsense, Torgan's modifiers for smelting are +7, smithing +5, gilding +5.

Edit: Honestly, the only folks that will have trouble getting reasonable modifiers in the necessary stats are ones that do some ridiculous character creations with 20's in prime skills and leave the rest at 10 or less. I have one ten, one 8 (Charisma), but all Torgan's other stats are nice and healthy. He's pretty well-rounded, and while that means he's not flexing 20+ muscles, he's capable of learning most of the crafts.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 06:29:52 PM by ethinos »
Torgan Ironshield: Battlerager and smith
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Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2008, 06:49:45 PM »
but now a char good at smiting is potentially horrible at gilding, and since you cant gild without smiting, it's a weird situation. I still think the system needs something else to add to it.

Might have an answer for that..........may post it saturday when I'm done with these plans.

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ThAnswr

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2008, 11:30:35 AM »
I just did some math with Dorin last night. I have +4 from stats so I need 1 lvl to hit the 25-5=20. At a cost of some 260 fang a try and at 1 xp a failure that is 260,000 fang for on lvl of guilding. After that I need to hit my 20 and I will have a 5% chance each attempt. How many players can afford 260k . Guilding has become something only people with very sprecialised stats (min/max) or people that spend wayyyyy tooo much time killing rats can possibly acomplish. Why make such an excellent crafting system and then do so much to discourage people from doing it ?

Not much to compare, but the sentiments are sounding eerily like those expressed about herbalism.  Why create it if the next big push is to discourage folks from using it by making it more expensive and difficult?  Why waste the time? 

This boggles my mind.  Why bother?   

I'll answer my own question as to why this happens constantly:  There are people in this world who truly believe the only path to growth is through suffering, adversity, defeat, and the godlike ability to persevere.  Baloney.  More often than not, you end up with bupkis.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 11:34:58 AM by ThAnswr »
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Badbelly

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2008, 03:42:36 PM »
I am not for revamping the system. I like the idea of craft skills being hard to master. For the right build, guilding can be mastered in a short time.

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2008, 11:00:22 AM »
This boggles my mind.  Why bother?   

I'll answer my own question as to why this happens constantly:  There are people in this world who truly believe the only path to growth is through suffering, adversity, defeat, and the godlike ability to persevere.  Baloney.  More often than not, you end up with bupkis.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

Your opinion is fine and no one is trying to force anything else upon you - but I'm sure you're aware that this doesn't make it universally true. The fact that many do bother confirms that atleast some seems to enjoy the challenge and find it rewarding in the end.

Also keep in mind that taking active part in the crafting is entirely optional - you can always just trade with the crafters to get a part of the produce it offers. It's intended as an option for those that like the challenge it pose, not something forced upon the entire experience. As such the system can only be labelled as flawed if it turns out to be too troublesome or hard for anyone to bother. Right now, it seems there's plenty of people who find it suiting (despite still needing a lot of balancing).

As for the gilding, it is the intension that there'll be more alternative ways of specializing within the smithing trade, and other directions will be more suited to other types of characters.

Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2008, 11:12:41 AM »
There is no new gilder being created at this time. None. The only characters able to gild were the ones created when buffs could be used and they would find themselves hard press to do the same again without the buffs. No one is willing to put that much effort into it because it feels 1- unrewarding 2- it's an incentive to farm money/levels 3- would rather be rping than wasting time in a mine about to fall down on their head

Did i say there is no new gilder being created at this time? There's none.

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failed.bard

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2008, 11:50:51 AM »
Only because Wilhelm is too poor to gild right now.  If someone wants to give him a bag of silver to go with the four ingots he has, and another bag of gold for the other parts, I'll do all the gilding I can for people.