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Author Topic: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?  (Read 14761 times)

Amon-Si

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Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« on: July 07, 2008, 06:52:44 AM »
The current gilding system is far too difficult. Currently to gild anything with silver is effective DC 25 (base 20 and you get a -5 for any attempts until you succeed)
Considering the expense of gilding (300 fang a pop, not to mention collecting silver) I would like to see it revamped and scaled like all the other crafting systems.
Perhaps having a Base DC of 15 to start and then add the present item modifiers?
For example, +0 for a dagger all the way to +15 for a katana.
Or we could just remove the -5 for first attempts, or set the DC a little lower?

Right now a char with less than a +4 on their stat bonuses would have to expend a phenomenal amount of coin (30000 per craft level) in failures to gain enough skill levels to even have a 5% chance of success.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 09:30:48 AM »
In the alternative, maybe a lower DC to gild a cheaper metal weapon?  Give smiths an actual use for all those copper daggers they have to make, for instance.  That way they could snag a few crafting levels on silver/copper daggers before moving on to the big time.

(Of course, it could be that this is already how it works. No smiths I've asked have wanted to waste the fang on a "useless" item to find out if this is the case when the conventional wisdom is that it's DC 20 across the board... ;))

Amon-Si

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 09:43:15 AM »
Actually, I tried it with copper today. It doesn't work  :lol:
I tried it both ways, gilding a steel weapon with copper: Improper or lacking ingredients
Gilding a copper weapon with silver: Works, but still DC 20.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 10:29:35 AM by Amon-Si »

Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 09:48:39 AM »
Didnt realize that much money would be invested in gilding, like Amon-Si and i were discussing last night, at this rate she has to gain a few levels off the XP gained off failures. And with the rate at which she gets silver, it's never going to happen. (I mine Murnu for silver ingots, so sue me  :lol:)

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KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 10:21:36 AM »
Hmm.  That stinks.
More logically, it might also be possible to implement the inverse -- a lower DC to gild copper onto an iron or steel weapon.  For obvious reasons that just wouldn't be in as much demand as silver, but it would give smiths a fighting chance to get those first few gilding levels, and it would also see master smiths returning to the copper quarry and mining alongside novices, which could lead either to fierce struggles over scarce resources, or mentor/apprentice RP.  Either one could be fun!

(I'm honestly all for the scarcity of silver.  I just think it would be less of a tease if smiths didn't have to waste a ton of time and money after going to all that trouble to get the silver.)

failed.bard

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 10:28:10 AM »
  As far as I know, silver, and gold especially, are the easiest metals to gild with.  Copper would probably be a higher dc, not a lower one.
  On the other hand, if it had +1 vs fey and elves/half-elves, instead of just fey, there would be a market for it.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 10:37:03 AM »
  As far as I know, silver, and gold especially, are the easiest metals to gild with.  Copper would probably be a higher dc, not a lower one.
  On the other hand, if it had +1 vs fey and elves/half-elves, instead of just fey, there would be a market for it.

Oh sure, in reality copper is a completely different beast.  I was just suggesting an idea to fit with the pre-existing internal logic of the crafting system.

I really like the idea of copper giving a bonus against elves and half-elves, but then you'll see a spate of wannabe smiths being hunted down and killed by assassins from Degannwy.  I know I'd want to put down anyone who was about to spend a few months making a pile of weapons specifically designed to kill me just because they need the practice. ;)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 11:03:20 AM by KoopaFanatic »

Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 07:45:48 PM »
I say lower the dif, but if you lower the Dif, then lower it to the Stats that Silvered Weapons should have.  Base damage. -1.  +1 AB vs Shifters (aka counts as Material Silver for getting past DR.)  Other things have been bumped to book levels in the name of fairness, and frankly, Silvered Steel of any large weapon makes mincemeat out of shifters to quickly.  The Die adder needs to go.

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penny

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 08:42:13 PM »
I thought copper gave AB vs. Fey? Fey, as in nymphs and stuff.
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Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 12:03:23 AM »
I thought copper gave AB vs. Fey? Fey, as in nymphs and stuff.

Yeah but the Fey you need it for, requires a +2.  Crafting gives you a +1.  Same with the Iron.  +1, Where as what you are trying to hit, requires a +2.  Still though it's Cold Iron that is the Magical Material that should be a "special" thing anyway.

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Amon-Si

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 03:07:11 AM »
I agree about silver weapons and damage, but could we keep this thread on topic please?  :roll:

Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 07:00:57 AM »
Told you to PM it directly to Soren

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 06:48:56 PM »
Silver gilding has always been a huge gold money pit. It's a very valuable craft, and the amount of money to even become average in it is rediculous (which I think is a good thing). The monetary requirements should chase off folks without the grit to grin-and-bear the costs involved.

Torgan must of spent 5-15,000 fangs per crafting level to get to where he is now. That puts him at around 100,000-200,000 fangs invested in gilding. Easily. I used to dungeon just to support his gilding. However, I never had to deal with that starting -5 thing.

As for Rex's recommendation: I only think solid silver weapons (like those found in the werewolf caves) should have the -damage on it. Gilding shouldn't effect the overall hardness of a weapon.
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KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 07:18:03 PM »
Well, per the 3.5 rules, a "silver" weapon is one that has been alchemically treated/coated with silver in a process akin to gilding, rather than one made of solid silver.  So logically the silver-gilded weapons are the ones the rules are talking about (and presumably a "silver" weapon like you're talking about is the same).

Still, I think the lack of a damage penalty on silver-gilded weapons the way they're implemented here is appropriate.  It's such a pain for smiths to get to that point, especially now, to then yank back the advantage of earning that high smithing level is just weak.  I can see that the damage bonus on a silver/steel greatsword is a bit crazy since it probably overcomes most weres' DR even without the gilding, but on the smaller weapons (rapier, shortsword) the bonus is far from overwhelming.  Considering that by any reasonable standard the investment (in material, components and expended time) to produce a silver/steel weapon is far greater than what Murnu sells the equivalent silver weapon for, turning a silver/steel sword into effectively the same item (just with a silghtly lower weight) means that a smith at the pinnacle of his craft can never hope to compete and recoup his losses.  The PC-based economy for weapons and armor that everyone talks about can't happen if it's based on such an economically irrational system.  (See, for instance, why most people give up on leatherworking once they can cure hides.)

ETA: And no, I don't think removing the silver weapons from the random loot is the proper solution ;)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 07:20:43 PM by KoopaFanatic »

Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 09:38:13 PM »
Well, per the 3.5 rules, a "silver" weapon is one that has been alchemically treated/coated with silver in a process akin to gilding, rather than one made of solid silver.  So logically the silver-gilded weapons are the ones the rules are talking about (and presumably a "silver" weapon like you're talking about is the same).

Still, I think the lack of a damage penalty on silver-gilded weapons the way they're implemented here is appropriate.  It's such a pain for smiths to get to that point, especially now, to then yank back the advantage of earning that high smithing level is just weak.  I can see that the damage bonus on a silver/steel greatsword is a bit crazy since it probably overcomes most weres' DR even without the gilding, but on the smaller weapons (rapier, shortsword) the bonus is far from overwhelming.  Considering that by any reasonable standard the investment (in material, components and expended time) to produce a silver/steel weapon is far greater than what Murnu sells the equivalent silver weapon for, turning a silver/steel sword into effectively the same item (just with a silghtly lower weight) means that a smith at the pinnacle of his craft can never hope to compete and recoup his losses.  The PC-based economy for weapons and armor that everyone talks about can't happen if it's based on such an economically irrational system.  (See, for instance, why most people give up on leatherworking once they can cure hides.)

ETA: And no, I don't think removing the silver weapons from the random loot is the proper solution ;)

Replacing them with the crafted versions then would make them a lot more useful then as something you sell to Murnu.  I think think combined with how dangerous it is to get silver (unless you are some munchkined out MMO machine), the difs should come down a notch.  Unless silver becomes a touch easier to aquire then leave them alone otherwise EVERYONE jumps on gilding again.  As it is, only the serious people tackle it.

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Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 10:26:17 PM »
Id like to be able to smelt down silver weapons and maybe get a ingot or two out of it.

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Rex

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 11:21:28 PM »
Id like to be able to smelt down silver weapons and maybe get a ingot or two out of it.

Rather smelt down Rusty Stuff and get ingots out of it.  Rather used to that as a function of the crafting system another server another time.  Gives a USE for Rusty garbage.

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Amon-Si

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2008, 06:36:42 AM »
Silver gilding has always been a huge gold money pit. It's a very valuable craft, and the amount of money to even become average in it is ridiculous (which I think is a good thing). The monetary requirements should chase off folks without the grit to grin-and-bear the costs involved.

Torgan must of spent 5-15,000 fangs per crafting level to get to where he is now. That puts him at around 100,000-200,000 fangs invested in gilding. Easily. I used to dungeon just to support his gilding. However, I never had to deal with that starting -5 thing.

As for Rex's recommendation: I only think solid silver weapons (like those found in the werewolf caves) should have the -damage on it. Gilding shouldn't effect the overall hardness of a weapon.

Huge money pit, no question, but excessive much?
To correct my previous post. To gain a gilding level with 0% chance of success will in fact cost 60,000 fang per level.
That is 300 fang per attempt, approx 200 attempts.
300x200=60000.
Can you say... no chance?
15k a level was pretty bad, but times it by four and strip out any chance of increasing your success chance (reducing attempts and gaining more successes) with buffs and you're in dire straits.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2008, 09:39:45 AM »
Rather smelt down Rusty Stuff and get ingots out of it.  Rather used to that as a function of the crafting system another server another time.  Gives a USE for Rusty garbage.

Now that would be neat!  I imagine it would be high DC/low efficiency in order to get an ingot (thus keeping the availability down a bit), but that would be a nice option for a high-level smelter to avoid the giant ore-haul from the mines.  A good work-around in keeping with the new encumbrance system.  Since so much of the rusty stuff winds up at Murnu's, there could actually be people working in the Vallaki smithy for a change, too!  :shock:

(All of this applies to Nef's silver suggestion too.)

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2008, 01:24:50 PM »
Rather smelt down Rusty Stuff and get ingots out of it.  Rather used to that as a function of the crafting system another server another time.  Gives a USE for Rusty garbage.

Now that would be neat!  I imagine it would be high DC/low efficiency in order to get an ingot (thus keeping the availability down a bit), but that would be a nice option for a high-level smelter to avoid the giant ore-haul from the mines.  A good work-around in keeping with the new encumbrance system.  Since so much of the rusty stuff winds up at Murnu's, there could actually be people working in the Vallaki smithy for a change, too!  :shock:

(All of this applies to Nef's silver suggestion too.)

Wouldn't it be easier?  It's already pure iron, aside from the rust.  Maybe you could dunk it in some CLR before you melt it down.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 02:35:46 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier?  It's already pure iron, aside from the rust.  Maybe you could dunk it in some CLR before you melt it down.

Well, it depends on how rusty it is.  If we're just talking a little minor and easily removed corrosion, it probably doesn't even warrant the gear's minuses.  But it doesn't take long (relatively speaking) for a RL piece of iron that's not properly cared for to rust right through.  A game ingot weighs about 5 lbs, right?  That means that even assuming a perfect conversion with no loss of ruined material and literally pure iron, it would take 5 rusted daggers to make a single iron ingot.  And more likely we'd want to have it make a lump of ore (or be the equivalent of a lump of ore) to make steel from, so that would be more like 10 or 11 daggers.  And that's for daggers and swords, which are almost all metal.  Consider there are also rusted axes and polearms and the like, which have a substantial wooden component.  So that's less usable material by weight.  Even the high-weight rusty items (rusted tower shields?  rusted chain shirts?) have a substantial non-metal component that has to be removed.

So for OOC reasons, I could see a higher DC and low efficiency for this process put in place to keep the Dvergeheim mines relevant to crafters -- you have to go there to learn to work with iron before you know the tricks to salvage it from old ruined weapons and armor, or if you want reliable large quantities of iron.  It would be justifiable for IC reasons too -- it takes a lot of time and effort to separate all the still-usable scrap iron from the rust, wood, fittings and decorations, or it takes extra time and skill to remove all the dross.

Doing this for the silver weapons would/should be a bit easier compared to the regular DC for smelting silver, since tarnishing is a slower and less destructive process than rusting, and is easier to remove.  And OOC, silver weapons are uncommon enough (and useful/valuable enough right out of the loot) that it's unlikely they'd completely supplant mining as a source of silver the way rusted gear might for iron.

ethinos

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2008, 03:47:26 PM »
Huge money pit, no question, but excessive much?
To correct my previous post. To gain a gilding level with 0% chance of success will in fact cost 60,000 fang per level.
That is 300 fang per attempt, approx 200 attempts.
300x200=60000.
Can you say... no chance?
15k a level was pretty bad, but times it by four and strip out any chance of increasing your success chance (reducing attempts and gaining more successes) with buffs and you're in dire straits.

If you have a 0% chance of success, you'll never get the first level, so I must be missing something in your argument. With buffing being out the window for crafting, if your attributes don't support a reasonable level of success in gilding, you might just want to admit that its not something your PC is capable of learning. I lucked out with Torgan in smithing and gilding because he has above average traits in STR, CON, DEX, and INT, which wasn't intended at character creation because I never planned on crafting.

The only thing I see maybe at issue is the starting -5 modifier, if there is no way to get past that with something like being trained or apprenticed.
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Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2008, 09:33:30 PM »
There is a great unfairness between the players that could buff out of the wazoo and the new players that begins crafting. Now to even have a slight chance they have to go farm the hell out of the server so they'll get enough money AND perhaps high enough level to gain a few extra ability points to help themselves out.

Suggestions:

-Items (tools) to improve the bonus
-Apprenticing with NPCs or PCs
-Character creation background bonus
-Bring back the buffs

I don't see a problem with using buffs to increase your natural abilities, Roland with 20str crafts much better than XYZ with 16, if player XYZ buffs to 20str he SHOULD be able to used this new found strength to the same extend Roland is using. Those spells ARE there for that : to enhance your capacities.

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ethinos

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2008, 09:53:02 PM »
A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though. Natural talent only takes you so far, and then from there experience is key. That's why buffs were removed from the equation, I believe.

But some form of true apprenticeship (I mean coded in, or tracked by the game) would be cool.
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Nefensis

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Re: Gilding, could we please look at a revamp of this system?
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2008, 10:27:07 PM »
Quote
A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though.

but right now the system makes it so a stronger smith is better. Buffs or not.

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