Author Topic: Dwarf population - Elven population  (Read 4165 times)

Nefensis

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Dwarf population - Elven population
« on: July 03, 2008, 09:38:50 PM »


The server always had this very homey feeling to certain zones, but then you get to dwervehein and degannwy and you find these npcs with no personality, dwarves dont even have lines, same model repeated ten times. I mean there's less than 10 commoners in whole dwarven hall and they ALL look like copy paste of each other. While Vallaki has a wide enough variety of NPCs and dresses and lines. It would be kinda nice to see npcs telling tidbits of stories or background story to the halls/degannwy, maybe even name them and give them different heads/clothing. Heck they dont even move either, they just stand there. A bit of less copy paste would look nice.  I'd do it myself if no one has time to do it.

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kenpen

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 10:03:08 PM »
I still want to sneak in there, and throw a vial of dragon blood at that damned shadow-stone. ;)

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Rex

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2008, 11:28:05 AM »
Honestly as big as a dwarf fan as I am, I still think both of those areas should be smashed into Sinkholes, getting rid of their static presence npc wise, but leaving the ruins and things chock full of maybe a survivor or two, and of course , monsters galore, adventuring stuff, and the ever needed supplies.

Both areas have reasons for this, as they are now, One is pretty much an XP machine with a bunch of dwarf spectators, and the other is an elf camp a pile of people hang out at during the night hours because no monster PC would dare attack the place.  Dvergeheim gives on the impression of some sort of story, that's stuck in the middle, while Degganwy, is short story that people tell about a tree, and is a nice place to drop off the Kids so mommy and daddy can go adventuring.

I say, smash them both and use the environment to make something cool out of them.

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kenpen

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 11:58:00 AM »
Yah. I agree. I've been wanting to see the Dwarf Hall plot move forward, and watch the place become a full-fledged warzone... and then a ruin. I like the idea... a few survivors left. Maybe the King encased in stone or dying valiantly or something. The dragon tearing through the place like a dark plague, as he an the Alhoon finally blow open a rift through the shadowstone. And, there's even a PC currently working on finding a way to cross planes through Ravenloft, and maybe they could work their plot into this. ;)

Degannwy... nice little place, but - yeah - hasn't been much done with it.

Other areas I've always wondered about... the Gingerbread House. The Hobbit Hole. The Trapper's Lodge  (hasn't anyone ever tried to unfreeze the guy? I was sitting there the other night, using him for a coat-rack, wondering if I could unfreeze him so I could ask him where he kept all his gold.)

ThAnswr

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2008, 12:43:11 PM »
You're missing the ambience of Degannwy.  It's a great place to hold a dinner party, chat around the fire, make new friends (   :mrgreen: ), etc.  It's a refuge and not a war zone.  There's plenty of those on this server.  Degannwy isn't one of them. 
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Lyrithean

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2008, 01:12:16 PM »
I'd like to see more spawn options in the OOC portal area.

1.) Faction Base
2.) Default town (Outcasts like sewer dwellers would not get this option as outcasts have no "town" to speak of)
3.) Last stored location
4.) Last safe rest zone

Town locations could be Barovia, Vallaki, Degganwy, Dvergheim and as the server adds more cities, others. The idea is to try and increase traffic into these areas. More traffic would mean more RP in them and more rp would lead to changes.

Rex

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2008, 01:14:55 PM »
You're missing the ambience of Degannwy.  It's a great place to hold a dinner party, chat around the fire, make new friends (   :mrgreen: ), etc.  It's a refuge and not a war zone.  There's plenty of those on this server.  Degannwy isn't one of them. 

Degannwy is THE place that should be one, considering what's happened there.  It's an Elven Outpost at best, that had a half celestial treant for a guardian until Big Evil showed up and turned it into kindling, so even at it's root, it's "refuge" status, is nothing but kindling.

If it weren't protected by the god awful powerful NPC's, it would be just as much a target for antagonists as other areas.  Instead, it's a place for folks (even those of DP check riddled natures) to hang out safe from the fear of anything short of a DM for some reason.

There are Plenty of places that one can do "all that listed above", so evolving Degannwy into something more reflective of the setting instead of this safe zone thing, wouldn't change that at all.

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ThAnswr

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2008, 01:26:18 PM »
I'd like to see more spawn options in the OOC portal area.

1.) Faction Base
2.) Default town (Outcasts like sewer dwellers would not get this option as outcasts have no "town" to speak of)
3.) Last stored location
4.) Last safe rest zone

Town locations could be Barovia, Vallaki, Degganwy, Dvergheim and as the server adds more cities, others. The idea is to try and increase traffic into these areas. More traffic would mean more RP in them and more rp would lead to changes.

I think this is a good idea.  Encouraging traffic to keep moving would, I believe,  help alleviate a lot of lag problems. 
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Rex

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2008, 01:29:36 PM »
Dvergeheim getting ripped apart in some massive battle between the Shadow Dragon and the Alhoon, would create MILESTONES of RP, from the crafters to just the dwarves that hang out or survive, to the exploration of the ruins, to the attempted recovery.  Degannwy, even more so.  Simply having a starting location doesn't mean anything other then the fact you walk to where most of the players are.  Faction bases, split up the server enough as it is.

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Nefensis

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 01:54:44 PM »
After playing here for 3 years there hasnt been many ground breaking changes and the story of the "zomg what's causing the tremor" is getting a bit old. With the number of times the dragon was slain, it might just be a good thing and "get it over with" from what i understand his mate is in the crystal, well maybe it's about time he tries to break for it. The ruins of dwerveheim could become a nice little spot for monsters and else. Dwarves trying to rebuild etc.

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Lyrithean

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 02:22:32 PM »
I'm a little curious as to why everywhere has to be a smoking crater warzone for people. It goes hand in hand with me wondering why some people think that EVERY character has to be corrupt, corrupted or corruptable (to the point that as a player I debate as to weather I should just kill some characters right off the bat to save myself the trouble later when they're powerful, but that's OOC knowledge and hence would be metagaming). I'll admit that Dvergheim should have some sort of closure to the whole shadowdragon tremor issue, it's a problem with having a storyline built into the area. Degganwy however has no obvious story line, which leaves it open, it can be left or something can be done with it, which is why I suggested something to help increase traffic. As a player I never take my character there because very rarely do I actually see anyone there.. walk there.. no one.. walk back.. yipee.. I'm wondering where Ric is with his character as I haven't seen him and the other sin a bit

Rex

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2008, 03:05:32 PM »
I'm a little curious as to why everywhere has to be a smoking crater warzone for people. It goes hand in hand with me wondering why some people think that EVERY character has to be corrupt, corrupted or corruptable (to the point that as a player I debate as to weather I should just kill some characters right off the bat to save myself the trouble later when they're powerful, but that's OOC knowledge and hence would be metagaming). I'll admit that Dvergheim should have some sort of closure to the whole shadowdragon tremor issue, it's a problem with having a storyline built into the area. Degganwy however has no obvious story line, which leaves it open, it can be left or something can be done with it, which is why I suggested something to help increase traffic. As a player I never take my character there because very rarely do I actually see anyone there.. walk there.. no one.. walk back.. yipee.. I'm wondering where Ric is with his character as I haven't seen him and the other sin a bit

Degganwy had a storyline.  The Tree got Smashed, end of story unless someone wants to do something about the perpetual coma paladin.  Otherwise, right now it's a bolt hole for people that know the monster PC's won't go there, and the Antagonist PC's that aren't Monsters, well, a lot of them hide there to.  All because the Elf npc's are nasty pieces of work, sort of like being protected by a small armada of the HMS Radu.  If "that type of player" wants some place full of Trees and Fairies to hang out in there is nothing stopping them from gathering with a bunch of their fellows, pitching tents and having a go at it.

Those two areas though would be better served, with some closure for Old storyline and some starting of New, in conjunction with the environment of the setting.  Degganwy would work very well as a sort of small sinkhole of evil/mini Myth Drannor, and the ruins of Dvergeheim would be the classic Smashed Dwarven empire reduced to Dungeon yet still usable for resources etc etc etc......Instead of the ever constant rehash.

As for the Why?  Because it's Ravenloft.  Not Care-a-lot.

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Nefensis

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2008, 03:07:23 PM »
A bit of shaking up the server's static elements isnt a bad idea, turning everything evil and upside down chaotic, isnt necessary

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DarkWyvern

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 03:28:23 PM »
Maybe its not the dragon doing the shaking. Ever consider that?

There are quite a few PCs who actually know the true reason behind it.


And, its not cause the dragons Mate is in the crystal. That's all I'll say on the matter.

failed.bard

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2008, 03:30:37 PM »
  I always assumed it was the dragon, then I realized even though in 7 years wilhelm hasn't managed to learn Balok, he can read mind flayer.

kenpen

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2008, 03:32:17 PM »
His mate is in the crystal? Rock on. They could tear the whole place apart, and then that whole area could be soaked in evil. And, maybe people would use the hidden tunnels into the cavern areas then.

I've always assumed the shaking was because the mind-flayer is an idiot, and made a big hollow space UNDER the lava, which seems retarded. And, the whole thing is about to go up in a giant volcano.

Nefensis

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2008, 03:33:50 PM »
Conversation got a bit sidetracked lol. i was just proposing a bit of cosmetic change.

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Lyrithean

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2008, 04:56:48 PM »
Degganwy had a storyline.  The Tree got Smashed, end of story unless someone wants to do something about the perpetual coma paladin.  Otherwise, right now it's a bolt hole for people that know the monster PC's won't go there, and the Antagonist PC's that aren't Monsters, well, a lot of them hide there to.  All because the Elf npc's are nasty pieces of work, sort of like being protected by a small armada of the HMS Radu.  If "that type of player" wants some place full of Trees and Fairies to hang out in there is nothing stopping them from gathering with a bunch of their fellows, pitching tents and having a go at it.

Those two areas though would be better served, with some closure for Old storyline and some starting of New, in conjunction with the environment of the setting.  Degganwy would work very well as a sort of small sinkhole of evil/mini Myth Drannor, and the ruins of Dvergeheim would be the classic Smashed Dwarven empire reduced to Dungeon yet still usable for resources etc etc etc......Instead of the ever constant rehash.

As for the Why?  Because it's Ravenloft.  Not Care-a-lot.

~Rex

The tree dying was not part of the areas built in storyline, which has been present in Dvergheim since pretty much the beginning. Moloch is king there for a very specific reason, the tremors are there for a reason, the dragon and the alhoon are also there for a reason. The elves in Degganwy  are just there, the tree dying wasn't part of the areas storyline nor is the Paladins coma. Those changes were the direct result of RP events initiated by the players and the DMs. As I said in my post the story in Dvergheim needs a bit of a closure, Degganwy is an open area so pretty much anything can happen depending on the RP there. Weather changes have to happen are another matter entirely, as I was implying, not EVERY area has to be a smoking crater nor every character a corrupted evil bastard/fallen hero/anti-hero/victim. Yes, this is Ravenloft not Care-a-lot, a gothic horror setting (Ravenloft that is, although I find the concept of Care-a-lot terrifying in it's own rights). Taking into account every Gothic horror novel I've read, to the Ravenloft boxed set, to the Cthulu genre, Gothic horror isn't a slaughterfest warzone, Gothic horror is the rot under the skin where an appearance of normalcy hides the evil underneath. Sometimes it devolves into a slaughterfest when things come to a head

failed.bard

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2008, 05:07:45 PM »
Quote
Gothic horror is the rot under the skin where an appearance of normalcy hides the evil underneath.

  Very well said.

  Of course, that means the elves are secretly evil, and the reason they act as a daycare is so they have a constant supply of infants to sacrifice to their fey gods.

archonzero

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2008, 06:39:46 PM »
I'm a little curious as to why everywhere has to be a smoking crater warzone for people. It goes hand in hand with me wondering why some people think that EVERY character has to be corrupt, corrupted or corruptable (to the point that as a player I debate as to weather I should just kill some characters right off the bat to save myself the trouble later when they're powerful, but that's OOC knowledge and hence would be metagaming). I'll admit that Dvergheim should have some sort of closure to the whole shadowdragon tremor issue, it's a problem with having a storyline built into the area. Degganwy however has no obvious story line, which leaves it open, it can be left or something can be done with it, which is why I suggested something to help increase traffic. As a player I never take my character there because very rarely do I actually see anyone there.. walk there.. no one.. walk back.. yipee.. I'm wondering where Ric is with his character as I haven't seen him and the other sin a bit

Degganwy had a storyline.  The Tree got Smashed, end of story unless someone wants to do something about the perpetual coma paladin.  Otherwise, right now it's a bolt hole for people that know the monster PC's won't go there, and the Antagonist PC's that aren't Monsters, well, a lot of them hide there to.  All because the Elf npc's are nasty pieces of work, sort of like being protected by a small armada of the HMS Radu.  If "that type of player" wants some place full of Trees and Fairies to hang out in there is nothing stopping them from gathering with a bunch of their fellows, pitching tents and having a go at it.

Those two areas though would be better served, with some closure for Old storyline and some starting of New, in conjunction with the environment of the setting.  Degganwy would work very well as a sort of small sinkhole of evil/mini Myth Drannor, and the ruins of Dvergeheim would be the classic Smashed Dwarven empire reduced to Dungeon yet still usable for resources etc etc etc......Instead of the ever constant rehash.

As for the Why?  Because it's Ravenloft.  Not Care-a-lot.

~Rex

  While I may often find myself on the other end of the conversation with Rex.. This is something I can agree on and actually would be quite happy to see happen, though I understand the time and resources that are required for such to happen.  We may very well need a larger active group of DMs and Devs to proceed with such.  So we may be asking a bit much, I've next to no time to invest in DMing or learning the toolset well enough to design with.  Though I've a ton of ability in pen an ink creations as well capable of written hook plots with strings to both player and NPCs alike.  Otherwise I would have already applied for such a position with the Dev/DM team.

  So needless to say I am definitely one for changing static elements, though obviously some will remain for stated setting reasons.  One thing I've tried off an on to stir up IG was the idea of the elves packing up camp and moving somewhere ... less under the boot heel of Vallaki's vigilant iron watch.  As it is now, it seems little more than a gilded cage for elves and outcasts to loiter.  Would be nice to find it abandoned and perhaps inhabited by the Thoul's of the SEastern farm cave, who have been steadily increasing in numbers and strength.  They do need a more defensible position and to start harrying the travellers along the southern roads and eastern farms. 

  This is sort of the one thing I've been picking at the DMs about.  Storyline events that have come to a closure or linger without should shape the environment in some way to affect the community.  While it is nice to see static bastions of safety, it would also be nice to see things change for better or worse.  I've always had the opinion that the "small" elven community in the server is more transient like the Vistani, hard pressed to establish a permanent community amidst an environment that inadvertently finds them barely tolerable and are generally more hostile towards them than welcoming arms.  I think it's high time the elves picked up and relocated to the other side of the lake or even out somewhere to the east between Vallaki and Barovia. 

  As for the Dwarves, I've not been around as long as the plot to this has been up an running, but the tremors I've long since stopped caring about, since it seems there's never any attention given to it, unless a DM has decided to follow particular players around and spice up a Dverghlem dungeon dive.  I would like to see a bit more of the horror that falls onto the dwarves, which typically runs the course of war, near extinction or losing their precious halls.  Would add some more tragic flair to the culture and dynamic background for the dwarves to step and an try to exemplify themselves in crusading to save, solve and destroy.  One for the bards as they say.

  Though what I meant about picking at the DMs, was larger plots/storylines that shape the environment and community as a whole.  Even if Joe Smoe isn't involved the event would affect him on some form or another, be it racial, social, spiritual or economical.  A DM team brainstorming ideas and events that locked together shaping such stories and characters (both NPC and PC) for the community can be a great boon.   Yes there will be naysayers that will prefer what was to be just as.  Though I believe they actually stagnate the environment from being dynamic and RP growth for both server and community.

  If it's not too much for the DMs/Devs to do.. then Yes please lets dust off the cobwebs.. or rather.. layer it in fresh webbing instead!!   :mrgreen:


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shadymerchant

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2008, 06:54:56 PM »
Quote
Town locations could be Barovia, Vallaki, Degganwy, Dvergheim and as the server adds more cities, others. The idea is to try and increase traffic into these areas. More traffic would mean more RP in them and more rp would lead to changes.

The reason this is a bad idea is because typically the server has a population of 30 players online. Right now, most of them are funneled into one area and you get lots of roleplay and interaction. When you break it up into different locations, it really kills the the idea of a community. I can't tell you how many servers I've joined with 60 + populations on them, only to wander around for 10 minutes unable to find a single person. Consider how often you find the outskirts empty as it is, and then add two more outskirts and divide those people into them.

I don't think shaking things up is required. First, I highly doubt some of the older players around here have even discovered the majority of the module. If you want to shake things up, then take some initiative and shake them up yourself. Factions is the main way to do this. Second, there's plenty of new players that have not experienced the module yet. Asking for things to be "shaken up" comes at the expense of many other projects before the devs, including NWN2 and new cities being added.

archonzero

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2008, 11:40:57 PM »
  Right.. but I don't think adding more is really whats being suggested.  But a revamping of the old, by utilizing plots and storyarcs to develop and bring players into these elements.  When you have multiple storyarcs ongoing each with multiple plots that are detailed over longer periods of time.  Over the course of Months and or even years of real time.  You add more depth to the setting as it's shifting slowly in it's form, shaping and changing with the times for better or for worse.  It lends true weight to characters memories when they can recite the moments they remembered before such an such was laid waste.. or when this used to be a small hovel but now a well built and popular tavern/shop/inn/etcetera... 

  But I do agree with Shady in that more towns and places are a nice way to jazz things up.  They do exactly what he said, break up the server population to much and make it harder to find others to RP with.  Though over focusing the player concentrations makes for hellish lag.. So it would very well need a balance of two worlds.  So far I think the Devs have done a wonderful job in giving a healthy amount of places to explore and expansion on the setting.   :mrgreen:

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Lyrithean

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2008, 12:09:54 AM »
The reason why I suggested that there be spawn options added to the OOC Portal room was for exactly that.. options.. characters don't have to spawn in these locations, but having the option would help increase traffic through the areas and hopefully foster some RP. Some of the places lack the accessibility for people to do some dedicated RP there. Making the spawn points optional would spread out the player base a bit, but I think not as much as one thinks, since most players would still spawn into the vallaki area.

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2008, 01:08:00 AM »
being "optional" is not a counterpoint. You're right, it is, and it's an attractive one many players will make use of. It's simply better for the server to have a starting point from which traffic generates. As it is, you can still have a safe location somewhere else. However, a great deal of people do start out in the outskirts, immediately, most at this point because that's where you know that you'll immediately find other players.

The problem with places like the Village being empty is simply because we don't have that many players around. It is hard to create traffic in multiple places in a module. Therefore, most of the mod remains empty and one single area in the module gets heavy use. Vallaki doesn't even get that much traffic.

It'd be great, but I just don't think it would work out like you think.

And it is work to change anything in the module. Anything. You're asking dev's to get together, discuss ideas since you're not supplying them, and figure out their implimentation and then have someone do the work. It's not like dev A has an hour on sunday and he can redo the Balinoks. As it is, they have an agenda, they do do a lot of work to change things, and that gets added to the list. It wouldn't hurt, but when it mainly serves a handful of the older people on the server, I don't think it's worth it. Additionally, it's new for a week and then it is old.

Again, some changes would be nice, but it helps if you offer specifics and really think about the module as a cohesive vision and how your changes fit into that.

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Re: Dwarf population - Elven population
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2008, 03:41:14 AM »
    I am a firm believer in do it yourselfing and a fan of cause and effect.  IMO the best way for something to happen to the haven or halls/mines is to think up a plot and submit it to a DM.  I have only heard of idea's on the outrageous side being revoked.  Of course an idea that would alter the way of a domain would probably be on the outrageous side... only one way to find out though.

    The elven haven and dwarven halls/mines have the potential for some amazing roleplaying - small and large scale.  I agree with Shady Merchant that while change may be fun it is not worth all the work it would take unless the majority of players truly want it.

    Maybe the reason people want the change is so the RP can come to them so to speak.  I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen players try to do something 'big' with either place. 
    Once was when the Dwarfs attempted to sway King Moloch to their side.  Obviously it did not work but those present would be able to tell you why :P
    Another time was during the Shadowfey incident when elves were being lynched.  I believe one character tried to rally the haven to action; which did not happen.  If I recall correctly all the other elvish characters where against this idea so obviously things went the way they did.

    That is just two examples of the few I can recall.  Of course I have no way of knowing everytime someone attempts a plotline involving one or the other, but my best guess is that it does not happen often at all.
    Sounds like this thread can be summed up as "These two places are boring, change them.  Make them interesting."  I disagree.  I say that they are under-utilized and as players it is our job to make use of them.  The DM's are more then busy.  Take the time and think up a few idea's yourself and pass them on.  If it is good and reasonable I have not yet met the DM who would turn it down.

    On closing here is some food for thought.  Still in recent memory is the shadowfey incidents where elves were lynched and brutalized.  More recently threatening notes have been found in the woods around the Elven Haven which have the impression of being written by those of authority in Vallaki.. maybe guards. 
    An elven body has even been found near the haven with a note attached saying something to the extent of "We told you to stay away".  There are PC's doing this and I am sure with more support something very very interesting could become of it.
    Maybe the elven characters familiar to the haven could get together and do something about it.  How about asking a DM if there is anyway a 'vote' could be held at the haven to replace the current leadership.  I know one NPC elf who did not like Michael very much.  Imagine if it was decided that he would now be the leader of the haven.  Maybe he would turn if from Haven to Fort.  Maybe he would ban any humans from entering - and ban any guards from coming in on pain of death.  So many possibilities...

    Of course this is just me ranting because I am at work.  Suppose I will stop now.. maybe something in here sparked something though.  I hope so; I would love to see it.