Author Topic: New heavy encumbrance system.  (Read 11978 times)

Chrisman888

  • The Man Of The Hour
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1486
  • Current Character: Horatiu Milosovici
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2008, 11:21:25 AM »
I'm going to have to agree; this system needs some overhaul.

In the spider caves, hit with strength poison. Instantly, I'm jammed up. Despite having used a restoration potion and immediately gotten my strength back, I can still no longer walk because - for a split second - I was heavily encumbered. Restoration potions should really fix all of that.

That's bad. I guess crippling strikes rogues are the king of the server now.

Lyrithean

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2008, 07:05:39 PM »
I'm going to send this OT, but so be it.

The "wise old sage" advice around here is "party up".  Considering you have players from multiple time zones, that is NOT always an option.  Should we tell our European friends "log on during US mainland" time to get the most from the game?  I've been on this server in the early morning when there were 6 people on.

Let's use our heads here and not grab for the "same old/same old" advice.  It isn't always feasible. 

****stepping off the soapbox****

Also considering the factioned atmosphere of the server, partying up isn't always a viable option for players. Guard can't find another guard to party up with so decides to party up with one of the undead faction. If I see it I'll shoot you and so should DM's or there should be some heavy RP consequences for partying with a conflicting faction. Seriously, with the multiple faction setup on this server the "lets all get together in a big party and go kill stuff together and sing songs" togetherness that other servers push just isn't right, coupled with timezones and the like, level differentials etc etc.. sometimes finding people to party with is just.. nearly impossible. Either people need to back off on their need for constant conflict between factions or IMHO we need to back off on the systems that make soloing or small party groups nearly impossible.

failed.bard

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2008, 08:49:12 PM »
  Nobody particularly likes the new system the way it is, I understand that.  WIlhelm has started using spells he didn't before, and I can get around it with him.  If people would give some actual feedback on the system, and what they thought could be done to improve it, it would be more likely to get some changes made to it than simply complaining.

  I posted the suggestion Jerv had, helaman had one for changing the ratios they kicked in at.

  There's also an issue with having to drop and pick up an item in order to move again once you're under the limit due to restoration or strength boost that needs to be addressed.

  The script isn't a bad idea (I've had characters over 3000 pounds overloaded before, simply because I didn't want to make multiple ore trips), it just needs to be tweaked, and ideas are more useful than rants for that.

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2008, 03:13:21 AM »
maybe something more sensible.  even if heavily encumbered one can drop things to keep moving at a slow pace.

Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12686
  • a.k.a. Søren
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2008, 10:33:24 AM »
I realise this system has come off as very harsh, and I apologies for all unnecessary grief it has caused. I'll flat out admit that I had not imagined that people this often moved around heavily encumbered. The issue that was targetted with this was primarily people who set their PCs to mine while going AFK for half an hour, then got back and filled their inventory to the brim. If preventing that makes crafts like smithing too hard, then I'd rather regulate it at the other end, making it more easy - but otherwise, we'll have it balanced toward endless trivial mining.

A solution could be pack animals - which would be a nice implementation for the roleplay purposes of it too - but for now, I think I'll simply regulate the values and add more stages of over-encumbrance, determining how fast you go into the state of complete exhaustion.

In the spider caves, hit with strength poison. Instantly, I'm jammed up. Despite having used a restoration potion and immediately gotten my strength back, I can still no longer walk because - for a split second - I was heavily encumbered. Restoration potions should really fix all of that.

If you have any effects applied that increase your strength or remove penalties, leaving you outside the heavily encumbered range, simply drop an item and pick it up for the system to record it. This is a limitation to the system that will have to be lived with - otherwise, we should alter every point in the game that a strength effect might be applied, which isn't very practical.




DM Shadowspawn

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2008, 12:11:23 PM »
An observation, most characters walk around with less then 20 pounds free capacity in their inventory. Carrying a companion automatically increases weight capacity to heavily burdened in all but the strongest characters. Add more then one companion and your done.
Typically when a smith is "Powercrafting" with a full load of ore it is around 800 pounds of ore. As a suggested increase to allow for the carrying of bodies, X 2.5 for the immobility with 1.0 being existing weight capacity. This will allow for a buffer where people will still move at the heavily encumbered weight rate.

Spiders right now have considerably increased in nastiness. High DC for first effect where it lowers str by a few points, then second hit or effect over time and the pc drops down to 4 or 5 str. No matter the weight restriction there will be little escape. The reason is because of less then 20 pounds free capacity.

To provide the answer as to why everyone carries so much, lack of permanent storage. Everyone must carry everything at all times. I realise permanent storage is not available for overhead reasons on the server and a thread should not begin to discuss it as it's a flogged horse already. But since everyone has to carry everything they own, weight capacity is a constant challenge. Many PC's carry magic bags to aid in inventory management but with maximum 60% bags which aid in bearing more of a load, irregardless inventory management and weight restrictions can cause significant impact on the experience people have while playing as people find more gear and wish to keep certain gear for certain dungeons where that gear is the difference between life and death of their PC's.

I think the idea is a sound one, with some minor tweaks it will add to the enjoyment and suspense.

ThAnswr

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3045
  • We all end up the same: Level 20 or dead.
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2008, 01:20:29 PM »
An observation, most characters walk around with less then 20 pounds free capacity in their inventory. Carrying a companion automatically increases weight capacity to heavily burdened in all but the strongest characters. Add more then one companion and your done.
Typically when a smith is "Powercrafting" with a full load of ore it is around 800 pounds of ore. As a suggested increase to allow for the carrying of bodies, X 2.5 for the immobility with 1.0 being existing weight capacity. This will allow for a buffer where people will still move at the heavily encumbered weight rate.

Spiders right now have considerably increased in nastiness. High DC for first effect where it lowers str by a few points, then second hit or effect over time and the pc drops down to 4 or 5 str. No matter the weight restriction there will be little escape. The reason is because of less then 20 pounds free capacity.

To provide the answer as to why everyone carries so much, lack of permanent storage. Everyone must carry everything at all times. I realise permanent storage is not available for overhead reasons on the server and a thread should not begin to discuss it as it's a flogged horse already. But since everyone has to carry everything they own, weight capacity is a constant challenge. Many PC's carry magic bags to aid in inventory management but with maximum 60% bags which aid in bearing more of a load, irregardless inventory management and weight restrictions can cause significant impact on the experience people have while playing as people find more gear and wish to keep certain gear for certain dungeons where that gear is the difference between life and death of their PC's.

I think the idea is a sound one, with some minor tweaks it will add to the enjoyment and suspense.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head:  People carry weight because they need the equipment. 

Every potion, every scroll, every gauntlet, and every item that make this game playable has weight.  Even herbs have weight.  Every mushroom, bit of mold, bit of grass, etc., weighs 5.28 oz EACH.  For realism's sake, that's in fantasyland.

Here's a very simple solution to solving the weight problem:  Implement real magic bags with 80% - 100% weight reduction. 

It'll never happen.  It doesn't fit in with the vision. 

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

I'd give Rex an opening with "End of story", but he's not here   :mrgreen:
Sig by Garison



When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter Thompson

"Rock is overpowered, paper is just about right" - Scissors
Thanks Aahz

Vespertilio

  • Never met a Dark Lord, not a
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1638
  • We can't stop here, this is bat country!
    • Messages from Nihil
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2008, 01:55:10 PM »
The suggestion that you become dazed, not utterly paralyzed, sounded like a good one to me and a decent compromise.


I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...

Ric

  • <Insert pwnage innuendo>
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3011
  • The writer that keeps going ... And going ...
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2008, 02:31:43 PM »
100% weight reduction bags are a bit beyond, but I would like to see 80% bags as rare loot.  I'm pretty sure a lot of people would treat 80% bags on par with +2 gear in terms of value.

cptpatriot

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Why is the mists so thick here?
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2008, 04:46:38 PM »
Since there is no storage system, of course there are gonna be carrying issues.

Here is a list of some of my characters and what they typically carry around in weight:

NameWeightClass
Mileena Soto
75
Monk
Kellia Tannor
73
Fighter
Tairan Shawson
74
Fighter

Yes, the lack of a storage system is a problem, but bags of holding can be abused, I think there should be a system set up to convert items into a data object that can be stored on the PC. Make an object that gives the PC the option to convert their items back and forth.

Until then,
I think that this system can be tweaked by simply calculating in extra weight to handle the normal overhead associated with a character, say 100 pounds.
Then add that much to the weight a person can carry.

failed.bard

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2008, 09:11:12 PM »
  Found one flaw in the system, where you can carry massive loads even after you've become immobile.  Will PM Soren details.

Rex

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3948
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2008, 09:27:12 PM »
  Found one flaw in the system, where you can carry massive loads even after you've become immobile.  Will PM Soren details.

Easy Fix......  *Codes in Critical Mass to the load system.....Steps back to watch the Boom*

~Rex
Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

shadymerchant

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1454
  • Legendary Pimp Cat (Circa 1876)
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2008, 12:01:47 AM »
  Nobody particularly likes the new system the way it is, I understand that.  WIlhelm has started using spells he didn't before, and I can get around it with him.  If people would give some actual feedback on the system, and what they thought could be done to improve it, it would be more likely to get some changes made to it than simply complaining.

  I posted the suggestion Jerv had, helaman had one for changing the ratios they kicked in at.

  There's also an issue with having to drop and pick up an item in order to move again once you're under the limit due to restoration or strength boost that needs to be addressed.

  The script isn't a bad idea (I've had characters over 3000 pounds overloaded before, simply because I didn't want to make multiple ore trips), it just needs to be tweaked, and ideas are more useful than rants for that.


The obvious solution for that would be for DM's to instakill players caught doing it since it's cheesy, or outright make a rule against it. I didn't offer any suggestions to the system because I think it has very little benefit to begin with and it's far better simply removed. Implimenting scripts to fix problems with multiple factors has worked just about never.

My problem wasn't even that I was soloing. It was that I died and my party quite literally could not get me down the mountain. In the end he burnt my corpse to turn it into ashes, than 8k was paid for a ressurection.

Someone suggested making corpses lighter. Corpse weight has always been fine, so why alter it for the sake of a new, flawed system?

The intent may have been good here but unless there is some kind of wonder solution, it's worth more trouble than the benefit of policing cheesy crafters. I don't craft and yet it's already had negative consequences for me.

Nefensis

  • MIA
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 7171
  • Gaming wench )0(
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2008, 01:17:47 AM »
From what im seeing, the new system makes it harder on people that aint the ones the system was implemented for. Granted miners cant "powermine" anymore, but everyone is in troubles now.

Another suggestion would be to make the ore veins carry less ore, like 4-10 each max.

Stela Cojocaru - barovian snake
Crina Ovidiu - barovian guard

Heretic

  • Dungeon Master &
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 16951
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2008, 01:34:52 AM »
Another suggestion would be to make the ore veins carry less ore, like 4-10 each max.

There's the rocks (Big pleaceable) and the Seams (The invisible placeables that give a lot of nuggets), the Ore seams give way too much ore. The Rocks give just the right amount of ore. The veins should only be carrying the same amount as the rocks are. Removing the seams is an idea.

That should balance it some more.


failed.bard

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2008, 01:47:04 AM »
If you didn't have to make thousands of weapons to get to a decent level, you wouldn't need so much ore at a time.  There was a reason crafters took so much at a time.

KoboldMafia

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • Semper Fidelis, Intemporaliter Lacerta
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2008, 03:38:43 AM »
reduce the amount of exp required to lvl up then.

failed.bard

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2008, 03:59:46 AM »
reduce the amount of exp required to lvl up then.

They apparently upped the amount you get per success, and you still need to make thousands of weapons, or hundreds of armours.

What needs to be done, is make the manufacture multi stage, needing a success for every ingredient in it, and giving XP for every success along the way.  Then something like a suit of full plate would truly be an accomplishment, especially with the buffs gone.

Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12686
  • a.k.a. Søren
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2008, 05:23:52 AM »
Easy now...

A lot of the concerns brought up in the latest posts has already been explained a few pages ago. Yes, it needs to be tweaked, but the positive aspects remain (for those of you who've forgot, refer to the first pages of this topic). It's overboard to simply label the entire system as flawed. Let's try to get back to a sober discussion.

Nightmare

  • Squatbold
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
  • Reality Unhinged
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2008, 09:55:41 AM »
Agreed.

This is getting to be a rather virulent discussion. I personally do not mind the script, but that might be because half of my characters are fighter-tank types >.>

Anyways, I have yet to test the system out myself but I think that the main complaints about the system would be that, the distance is too short for travel time. Maybe increasing the distance that you are able to traverse before collapsing from sheer exhaustion, or inserting some kind of fatigue script to drain a CON point if they 'push' themselves.

Either way, I have yet to experience the system myself, so I cannot really give criticism to it. I do like the idea though.
"Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft

Badbelly

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • RP imposter
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2008, 12:08:15 PM »
In R/L, gurneys are used to carry the injured/dead. Perhaps we can have them as well? alot easier to drag on body suspended on two poles behind you then over your shoulder.

Iconoclast

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6403
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2008, 12:40:15 PM »
I think the ooc frustration that has given this thread some heat has resulted from players feeling that the relationship between 'realism' and 'fantasy game' isn't what it should be, based on their experiences as players in game.  I'd also caution to expressing too much passion though in posts, since there will always be folks in every pw community who will disagree on what the relationship or balance ought to be between 'realism' and 'fantasy.'  So share your experience and post feedback as neutrally as possible, though at the same time, when players' frustrations are peaking through, give a little room since the frustration is also due to the fact that they are the ones who may be experiencing the systems day after day.

I think players see that an effort was made to use a system to fix a problem with crafters, but has resulted in a lot of time being devoted in game to players trying to overcome a death situation.  One could argue that not being able to carry a body down the mountain, could also foster some role play.  But that form of argument, while looking good, can't be sufficient.  The amount of ooc time a player has when logging in is a crucial factor I believe to balancing a game.  The time needed to run down a mountain such as Ghakis, which is gigantic, and the time it would take to find a cleric or a strenght buiild to come back to tend to the fallen, while perhaps fostering some nice role play, also brings things to a hault, and also can be very time consuming.  The str needed in the new system to carry a corpse might also leave out all the other role playing options.  In Shady's situation, his fighter build was the one to die, and even though he had companions with them, they could not use their combined strength to carry his body down the mountain.  We've seen it movies probably, where someone rigs up something to drag a body behind them. 

Could there be an item that could be specifically used to drag someone or something behind them?  I gues the issue then might be couldn't someone drag ore behind them, and maybe one the purposes of the new system was to limit the amount of ore to slow down the pace of crafters mastering their trade. 

Well, I'm confident Soren and the Dev Team will work something out to help ease the players' frustrations they're experiencing when it comes to trying to carry corpses. 

 :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 12:42:25 PM by Iconoclast »

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2008, 01:55:29 PM »
indeed, this is why there is a dev team.   :mrgreen:

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4706
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2008, 03:37:18 PM »
cant you think of somthing else to make crafters craft less like   heretic said reduce the amount of ore .

that way not every one gets a bullet, but just to those who it whas intended for.

Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4706
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2008, 05:25:09 PM »
....also if the dead bodies do get reduced......make women and men difrant wiegths?   i mean a lass doesnt way as much as a lad mostly

Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company